Have you encountered discrimination or prejudices in Japan ?

[Taiko666]

I thought it was a rational choice.

His choice is rational in that he's reduced the risk of a similar misunderstanding, but the downside is he's excluding perfectly acceptable customers and is contributing to the creeping exclusionism in Japan. I'm sure that many places which exclude foreigners do so because of some prior unpleasant or awkward situation. Other establishments may not have had awkward experiences, but may have heard about other places' experiences and with to avoid something similar. It's understandable but not excusable. Just as a barber in another country refusing to serve Japanese because he once had an unpleasant experience with a Japanese customer would be inexcusable, and illegal.

I think life is too short to search out for things that make you unhappy.

I don't think many foreigners search out situations where they suffer discrimination. Just going about one's daily life does the trick.

I suppose that I should add that I am of the opinion that if you plan to stay for more than a short vacation, I think you should try to learn the local language of any country you go to.

I don't think many people would disagree with you there.

Perhaps I am wrong, but personally I don't find mild discrimination of non-citizens nearly as problematic as discrimination of citizens. Yes, there are human rights and they are to be observed and respected. But being allowed into a certain drinking establishment/onsen/etc. is not an inalienable human right in my opinion.

Of course being refused entry to a bar per se is not a human rights violation. But being refused any service on the basis of your race/origins certainly is. And I don't think it's even necessarily a citizenship thing. Most exclusionary establishments may refer to 'foriegners' but they acually seem to mean 'non-Japanese looking' people.

It is not a perfect society or place to live, no place is, but the minor restrictions and inconveniences I have to face to live out my life as I have chosen are very small indeed. Nothing in life comes for free, and I just see it as the price I pay to be a foreign national.

They may well be minor inconveniences for you, but they foster a culture of discrimination which permeates through many layers of society, causing huge problems in other areas, especially for people who have almost no choice but to live here (eg children of immigrants.)

[Mikawa Ossan]

Hello, again, Taiko666! It's nice to be able to have a rational discussion about such an emotional topic!

His choice is rational in that he's reduced the risk of a similar misunderstanding, but the downside is he's excluding perfectly acceptable customers and is contributing to the creeping exclusionism in Japan.

I think of that as his loss, not mine. Creeping exclusionism? I think I know what you're referring to, but I just don't see it. Yes, I've seen that immigration in getting more strict about enforcement and whatnot, but that's how it should have been from the beginning, IMO.

It's understandable but not excusable. Just as a barber in another country refusing to serve Japanese because he once had an unpleasant experience with a Japanese customer would be inexcusable, and illegal.

I seem to remember hearing on NPR talk in certain places in America where public services are not being offered any longer to illegal immigrants (perhaps it was still only in the talking stage. I don't recall perfectly.) Is that not at least similar?

I don't think many foreigners search out situations where they suffer discrimination. Just going about one's daily life does the trick.

I guess I must just be one of the lucky ones, then.

Of course being refused entry to a bar per se is not a human rights violation. But being refused any service on the basis of your race/origins certainly is. And I don't think it's even necessarily a citizenship thing. Most exclusionary establishments may refer to 'foriegners' but they acually seem to mean 'non-Japanese looking' people.

At what level does it become a human rights violation? Can store people not decide whom they wish to serve? I understand your point about the rights of the customer, but what about the rights of the storekeeper? Can not the storekeeper take steps to avoid problems in the future?

They may well be minor inconveniences for you, but they foster a culture of discrimination which permeates through many layers of society, causing huge problems in other areas, especially for people who have almost no choice but to live here (eg children of immigrants.)

I suppose we just have to disagree. Yes, people do often have to pay for the sins of others, but I think in Japan this is where personal responsibility kicks in. I think that as foreigners, and by this I mostly mean non-citizens, the onus is on us and the children who have no choice but to live here to fit in as best as possible. It's a tough world, but it's the world we live in.

I have a hard time getting up in arms about the things being discussed here. You can call this relativism if you like, but bhat does bother me are things like the human slave trade, which is very much alive and well all over the world, including Japan. Maybe it's called something else nowadays, but it is here.

[Taiko666]

Hello, again, Taiko666! It's nice to be able to have a rational discussion about such an emotional topic!

Hi! Thanks... it seems quite a lot's been said while I was away (motorcycling in Izu... no exclusionary problems to report...)

Creeping exclusionism? I think I know what you're referring to, but I just don't see it.

The exclusionism bug can do a lot of creeping before you notice it. That's because there are no laws to prevent it, which is the real problem. You must surely have read or heard about examples like the Brazilian-born Japanese citizen hounded out of buying some land on which to build a house? I could even throw in the story of the Japanese born, Japanese fluent daughter of an American friend who was denied employment by MacDonald's for the sole reason that 'customers would be wary of you because you're foreign'. Examples crop up very regularly. And they'll become more regular as more immigrants arrive, and the children of existing immigrants seek jobs or even
an adequate education.

Can store people not decide whom they wish to serve?

To a point. Refusing service to a person because they're drunk, abusive or dangerous is fine. But this question is so fundamental. If you believe that's it's ok to refuse to serve somebody based solely on their race, I don't think I or anyone else will persuade you otherwise.

I think that as foreigners, and by this I mostly mean non-citizens, the onus is on us and the children who have no choice but to live here to fit in as best as possible.

If you're being excluded, it's impossible to fit in. And nobody benefits.

Sometimes I can't help but wonder if you and bakaKanadajin condone racism (excluding by race = racism) in your own countries. I'm sure you don't... but then you seem to accept it as an unavoidable and acceptable part of life in Japan, and I don't know why. Saying that Japanese morals and 'western' morals are somehow different is no answer... even the Japanese (say they) don't believe that, since they signed a UN anti-racism treaty. What gives them special dispensation to renege?

I reckon the J-Gov has at least 3 choices:
1) Implement the laws it said it was going to implement, bringing it into line with most of the civilized world, enabling it to move forward and tackle more difficult aspects of immigration.
2) Deport all non-ethnic Japanese and revert to isolationism.
3) Attempt to maintain the status quo, and watch the country slide down the pan.


Ah, that's better. Downs tools and heads to his local non-exclusionary nomiya for a cheeky 純米酒.

[Glenski]

If you believe that's it's ok to refuse to serve somebody based solely on their race, I don't think I or anyone else will persuade you otherwise.

Sadly true, perhaps, but they can sure sue your butt off for your actions!

[gaijinalways]

This is a hot issue to discuss, and I've been involved in it on two other forums in one form or another ("Dave's ESL cafe" and "Young Dudes' Guide to Japan"). This forum is certainly more balanced than the latter, where I had people thinking I should work for Debito (amongst other ones)!

Strangely enough, comparisons with illegal aliens are strange ones as the people we're talking about getting undue attention are not illegally living here and are often married to citizens here. Every society often likes to focus on powerless scapegoats when they can't fight a problem or don't wish to. Why should Japan focus on a small minority of the population when it doesn't seem to be in the government interest to do so? Does tourism and foreign business investment in Japan ring a bell? Of course the latter may not be discouraged as long as they are servicing the domestic market, but they may be more than annoyed when their company seems to be competing under different rules than the Japanese ones. How do you think these cases of overt discrimination are going to make tourists want to visit here?

As to the employment issues, no it is a big difference depending on the country that you're looking at. The US has a large number of tenured foreign lecturers. Japan has very few, and even though the number of Japanese who are tenured is decreasing as well, they still have a much better chance of getting regular permanent employment here than a foreigner does.