kkkktttt, in which country did you see TV variety shows making fun of Japanese people ? I have never seen such programmes (or movies) on French, Belgian or British TV. Of course, if you take the US or China as reference, you are up for surprises...
kkkktttt, in which country did you see TV variety shows making fun of Japanese people ? I have never seen such programmes (or movies) on French, Belgian or British TV. Of course, if you take the US or China as reference, you are up for surprises...
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"What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.
イギリスの例を一つOriginally Posted by Maciamo
http://tviv.org/wiki/Banzai
また、ハンガリーでは次のような番組が放映されていたそうです。
http://www.sankei.co.jp/edit/bunka/2...ji/0501tv.html
この番組はもともとオランダで製作され、欧州の複数の 国で放映されてたものを、ハンガリーの放送局が版� 購入し独自に製作したものだそうです。
日本人の大半はこれらの番組を笑って済ますぐらいの余裕が� ると思いますが、海外に住みマイノリティーとして差別問題に敏感にならざるを得ない日本人の中に はracismを感じる人も少なくないでしょう。ちょうど現 在の� なたのように。
そういえばフランス映画「タクシー2」でもおかしな日本人が描かれていましたね。
ベルギーについてはそもそもどのような番組が放映されているか 知らないので何ともいえません。
詳しくはgoogleで「変な日本」� るいは「ヘンな日本」 で調べてみてください。
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...5%E6%9C%AC&lr=
http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...C%E7%B4%A2&lr=
そもそも欧州では、各国の人々をステレオタイプ化して ネタにするアネクドートがまさに「文化」として根付いているのではないです か？
その中には日本人をネタにしたものも� るはずです。
日本人論＝racist theory of Japanesenessではないですよ。
日本人論の中には優越主義的なものも� りますが、自ら を否定的に描くものも少なく� りません。
また、「荒唐無稽」といった通り、いわゆる日本人論の 多くはせいぜい酒席のネタ程度のものでそれほど真剣に 捉えられている訳では� りません。
「日本人論」で� れ「欧州人論」なんで� れ、一見それ を根拠づけるような「それなりの事実」は� るんですね 。
問題はそれを絶対化して特定の集団の特徴として論ずる 点ではないですか？
そもそも、唯一の超大国と世界最大の人口を持つ国を「 例外」とすること自体にムリが� りますね。
If the "nihonjinron" is mostly limited to jokes at drinking parties, how do you explain that so many books were written about it, and that Tokyo Governor Shintaro Ishihara has political views well in line with the "nihonjinron" ?
There have been similar racist theories of "White supremacy" (e.g. Nazism), but rare are the people who still agree with them or would publicly express them. I think that you (as a Japanese) do not understand that in Western countries, because such theories existed, there has been a movement to ban them, especially after the disastrous consequences of Nazism in WWII. However, I feel very much that the Japanese have no such taboo about it, and don't even realise that it is taboo for Westerners. Visibly, you also think it's ok at a drinking party...
Well, I am not American nor Chinese, but European. I compare Japan to what I know best, and this is Europe, or more specifically the Benelux, France or Britain, which are the countries I know best in Europe. I have also criticised a lot the US - probably more than Japan. So, what's the point telling me that the US may be worse than Japan in this regard ? It still doesn't make Japan on the particular issue of racism alright by my standards.そもそも、唯一の超大国と世界最大の人口を持つ国を「例外」とすること自体にムリがありますね 。
Just to give you an idea of the treatment of foreigners in Belgium :
- All foreigners have the right to vote at local election. (not in Japan)
- Belgium provides integration courses for immigrants, including very cheap (sometimes free) language classes.
- Foreigners don't have to carry an alien registration card (but Belgium must carry an ID card)
- Foreigners can benefit from social security. (something I disagree with, but that is how it is).
- Foreigners married to a Belgian don't need a (spouse) visa, and can obtain Belgian citizenship after 6 months of marriage (as opposed to 4-5 years in Japan).
- In 2001, Belgium had 24,000 asylum seekers, as opposed to 400 in Japan. Belgium having a population and land area 13x smaller than Japan, it means that Belgium accepted 780x more asylum seekers per inhabitant than Japan. (sources)
Furthermore, the acceptance rate of asylum seekers in Belgium is 24.5%, against 9.2% in Japan (sources)
This is off-topic, but it may help you understand what is "normal" for me as a Belgian (and not for American or Chinese people). So I may be a bit more sensitive to issues of foreigners' rights, discrimination of racism than international average. But I am entitled to an opinion too, ain't I ?
Last edited by Maciamo; Nov 25, 2005 at 18:07.
あなたが、バライティ番組で外国人を笑いのネタにすることを「a typically Japanese phenomenon」と言ったことに対しての発言です。日本人に典型である（＝「日本人論」）というのな らば、少なくともこの二大国について調査しないのは適当ではないと思ったわけです。「他にはない」ことを証 明しなければ「典型的」とは言えないでしょ？
ご理解頂けましたか？
I said that cute racism was a typically Japanese phenomenon. It's not the same as making ethnic jokes between Japanese. I am talking of recruiting foreigners and making them do stupid things, or making them look stupid by giving them katakana subtitles. In fact, some of the foreigners on TV do not even have to act stupidly to make the Japanese people on TV laugh (and the audience I guess). As other people said, many Japanese just find it hilarious to see a foreigner do things that are completely normal for Japanese people. As far as I know, there is no such TV programmes anywhere else. If there is, please tell me the name of the programme, channel and country where it is shown.
Your argument does not follow. What's "typical" for a certain group of peoples can very well be "typical" for another. You don't have to argue that a certain trait exists only in a certain sample of people for it to be defined as "typical."
But either way, what's irritating people is the kind of humor that the Japanese find funny. Time after time, foreigners are funny for the sake of being a foreigner in these variety shows (余談かもしれませんが、たしか正しい綴りは「バラエティ」の筈なんですけど。。。). I'm quite sure that shows around the world would have jokes about stereotypes. I'm also quite sure that many of those jokes are funny because it revolves around a specific quality or absurdity of the stereotype itself. A long shot away from the Japanese form where you can laugh at a foreigner for doing ordinary things.
Last edited by Bibinbahell; Nov 26, 2005 at 09:16.
Ah, was that the gist of kkkktttt's post? I was wondering if anyone would para-phrase that for those of us not quite up to that level... Unfortunately I have seen a few shows that make fun of Japanese people...I have rarely found humor in jokes based upon stereotypes... they tend to make me feel uncomfortable... for those being make fun of...
I like Mikawa Ossan's comment "The question as I see it is, when is a joke just a joke, and when does it cross the border into racism?"
I was born half English / half American. I got the best of both worlds, yet I am an outsider to both... Both American's and English say I have a funny way of speaking... I will use English words American's have never heard of and visa versa. The people at work think it is the funniest thing on the planet... and I just don't get the humor... but I think it may have something to do with the unexpected in an otherwise boring situation... They certainly don't intend to be hurtful...
Comercialized humor on television is different though... they know exactly what they are doing and calculate the profits accordingly... I am not there so I cannot judge... but I have seen riotously funny Japanese shows that have only Japanese in them...
Maciamo, I can feel the strength of your concerns through the words you use in your posts... it is almost as if you are angry... perhaps you are expecting the Japanese people you know to act a certain way and when they don't you get frustrated... thinking they should know 'me' by now... is there no one you can talk to about it there?
The problem is a lot of people don't really think anything of that kind of stuff. Because they think the stereotypes are actually true and therefor get very confussed when others have stronge negutive reactions to the things they say.
Racism has become, sadly enough, deeply imbeded in people on basic levels. It's disgusting really. The fact that it doesn't cross people's minds that things could be taken that way proves how much of a problem it is. People don't even realize they're doing it which is saddening. But honestly, where do you think phrases like for example "hey, big guy" came from? Even if, typically, they aren't used or meant that way it's rather obvious that that is how they came into existance. The very fact that those phrases even EXIST at all tells you how much of a problem racism is EVERYWHERE not just Japan.
When someone says something racist and you say so a lot of the time they look horrifide and say, "Oh, my God! I didn't think...was I really???" They don't know they're doing it. But which is worse? Not knowing and doing it or KNOWING and doing it anyway? Both are terrible. But I think knowingly being racist is far worse although unknowingly is much more sad. The one's who know attack you and the ones that don't just peck at the surface. I've had both aimed at me and neither is fun and both make you feel like shite. Racism is a nasty thing no matter what form it's in. But I think if Japan REALIZED what it's doing things might change but they honestly don't seem to know. Or maybe they do and I'm just being naive.
You say "Haido fangirl" like it's a bad thing.
To me, what I find really disturbing is the first example, but coupled with a certain sense of denial, followed up by a need to rationalize their racism. Doesn't the nihonjiron(?) and concepts of Chinese and Koreans as "inferior" allow for this kind of rationalization?
Apparently, this view is in the minority, so I'm not sure how "insecurity" has much to do with it if it's something that most agree is a problem. Nor do I see how this argument necessarily leads up to claims of open-mindedness.
My point was aimed specifically at the things Maciamo posted, like Japanese asking him if he asks sushi, if Belgium has four seasons and things like that.
I do not deny that racism does exist, but I don't think these are valid examples of it.
Remember this is exactly what Maciamo posted
So racism is maybe a way for some Japanese to become more confident, by doing all they can to make "gaijins" look stupid or inferior, going as far as inventing theories such as Japanese having unique brains, being able to eat food that foreigners can't eat, or claiming that Japan is unique for its four seasons and cherry blossoms, or other narrow-minded (and deeply mistaken) nationalistic propaganda
Are you actually denying that the cherry blossom is the national(istic) symbol of Japan ? What's more, "sakura" (cherry blossom) is a common name both for people (used in given and family name) and company names. I find that latter particularily strange (Sakura Bank, Sakura Rubber, Sakura Industries ?). Entering the keywords sakura kabushiki kaisha (cherry blossom limited company), I got 2 million results ! Most Japanese regard the cherry tree as a symbol of their culture and identity, so it is not so far fetched that they should think of it as uniquely Japanese. Naturally (no pun intended), blossoms are associated with the 4 seasons, leading them to believe that if cherry (or plum) blossoms are "Japanese", then Spring as known in Japan is somehow unique to Japan, and therefore other countries may not have the same seasonal process. It sounds absurd to a Westerner, but believe me, it is not to the average Japanese.
The Amazing Racist, huh? Looks more like the amazing dumb***. Would be an honor to take him down, teach him right. That was pretty harsh man.
Mauricio
The kkkktttt's gist goes that Maciamo tells much about "Japaneseness" among his hundreds of would-be average J friends share, but what about his own Japaneseness?
This is not what kkkktttt wrote. The first paragraph is about the nihonjinron (not "Japaneseness" but "racist theory of Japaneseness"). I don't see how my explanations about what I experience in Japan is similar to the "nihonjinron". These are just facts such as how gaijins are made fun of, or subtitled in katakana on TV, or the Japanese obsession with questions about foreigners' opinion of Japan, and whether foreigners can eat this or that, or if they had ever experienced the 4 seasons before coming to their beautiful country... But maybe for kkkktttt, the nihonjinron (claiming Japanese racial superioty) is also based on facts ?
The second paragraph is the one I replied to. I am still waiting for an answer.
And for the record, it is not because I speak French that I am French.
Well, I'm a German & have seen a number of British comedy shows making fun of German stereotypes. I can't see much of a problem there. The problem is more in education. When you learn the same stereotypes at school or only learn about the stuff these stereotypes are built upon you may actually believe in the content of these TV shows.
thats good.
Ah, I see, then Maciamo did not yet reply to kkkktttt's post...
Pipokun, what do you think is meant by their 'Japaneseness'? It was my understanding that Maciamo was French... I am a little confused now...
Bibinbahell: I agree with most of what you've said, at least, in the context in which I can understand them; I don't understand Japanese, so I can't really comment on your conversation with kkkktttt. Still, one part stuck out:
Gotta disagree here.
examples:
Banzai (produced in the UK, but some of its episodes were purchased by networks such as Comedy Central and Fox)
Dean Koontz
Death of Vincent Chin
Also, from what I've heard, a lot of J-Pop/Rock fans have complained about their peers mocking Japanese musicians as being gay.
You also mention the Detroit workers incident being a little outdated, but since time by itself is not an improver of moral standards, I'd ask, have there been any significant moves towards greater understanding and acceptance? I don't know myself, so I'm not putting you on the spot, or anything. Of course, in the Vincent Chin article which was dragged on into '87, it seemed like the case was a significant rallying point for APA activists, but what of white Americans? Again, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that racism doesn't disappear just through the passage of time alone.
However, I think what you seem to be getting at is America as a whole allows for more discussions and awareness about racism because concepts of racism is there in their moral consciousness, which I agree with. I'm wondering: has there been any equivalent of a civil rights movement in Japan?
Another point I want to make: just because I had examples of anti-Japanese discrimination doesn't downplay the significance of racism in any other part of the world, Japan included. Each nation, culture, subculture, etc. needs to be carefully considered.
Those are interesting links. But please let me point out that I have never said racism is not a problem in the States. In fact, I believe I have said in a previous thread that racism is still an ongoing problem. The main difference is the people's reaction to it. Take a look at your link about Dean Koontz. The person writing that blog calls Dean Koontz a "racist f***tard." Looking at the comments, everyone agrees that being a racist makes you "a wanker of the highest order." Now imagine a blogger saying Dean Koontz is a hero because he "gave it to those dirty Japs. They had it coming." And then everyone gives out comments and examples of how the Japanese will always be inferior. I believe that's the situation in Japan.
Yes, I agree that there is more discussions and awareness because Americans do recognize it as a problem. Japan, on the other hand, likes to sweep things under the rug thinking that it'll go away if you ignore it long enough. I think that it'll just make the issue fester until it explodes.
This kkkktttt person doesn't think so. He probably thinks that Japan should be exempt from such racial equalities because Japan has been discriminated against in the past.
Good point.
That's a ridiculous proposition that any self-respecting civil rights activist/sociologist/intellectual creature would scoff at. Too bad I can't understand enough to argue back. sorryThis kkkktttt person doesn't think so. He probably thinks that Japan should be exempt from such racial equalities because Japan has been discriminated against in the past.
ignore newasian. his posts have been nothing but spam. if he keeps it up, i'm sure he'll be banned.
当時の世論調査では、アメリカに対するもっとも深刻な脅威として、日本の経済力をあげた人がソ連の軍事力を あげた人を上回りました。
あなたのまわりには分別のある人が多いのかもしれませんが、「日本と同様」にアメリカでも（あるいは世界の どの国でも）世論はメディアの扇動に影響を受けてしまうものです。
私の投稿履歴を参照してください。
一例を挙げます。日本の方との議論です。
Originally Posted by ralian
I somehow feel that there is someone behind this anti Japan movement.
Who or which organasation will benefit from this?
それにしても、今回の反日デモに関して、だれか裏で工作しているような気がしますね。だれだと 思いますか。 大体、中国政府がデモを容認するなんておかしい話じゃ ないですか。この動きは、いずれ違う方向に向いていく ような気がしますねえ。
以下が私の返答です。
日本は、1930年代から15年もの長きにわたって中国を侵略してきました。これは「地上戦」であって、「 空襲」などとは違い実際に日本軍の軍人の「顔」が見えるわけです。憎しみが中国人民の心により深く刻み込ま れても不思議ではありません。
日本の敗戦後も、内乱による混乱や「文化大革命」によ る惨劇が続き、日本軍による被害を訴える場もありませんでした。日中の国交が回復すると、国際情勢や経済援 助の必要性から、中国共産党は親日政策をとらざるを得ず、民衆の反日活動は禁止されました。
もちろん、共産党政府の様々な思惑もあるでしょうが、いわば今初めて、中国の民衆が素朴な反日感情を発散す る機会を得たともいえます。
私自身はこの映画を差別的だとは思っていません。まあ、監督は日本社会に敬意は抱いていないとは思いますが 。
日本でも、特に差別映画としては取り上げられていませんでした。繊細で敏感な一部の日本人が「差別」だと捉 えたのでしょう。
日本における「外国人をお笑いのネタにする」番組をめぐる状況も同じようなものだと思います。
ジャパン・バッシングの後は「ジャパン・パッシング」あるいは「ジャパン・ナッシング」です。反発の後は嘲 笑というわけです。真摯な反省があるとは思えません。そうである以上、再び同じような事態が発生する危険性 はありますね。
アメリカの政界やメディア界に対して、中国がいかにうまくロビー活動を仕掛けるかにもよってくるでしょうが 。
あなたの誤解です。
そもそも強力な圧力団体が存在していること自体、差別問題が依然として存在していることの反映 です。
あなたもお分かりの通り、私は「日本もアメリカも本質的には同じだ」といっているわけです。
日本に差別がないなどと主張しているのならば、同時にアメリカにも差別問題は生じていないことになり、そも そもアメリカについてあなたとの議論が発生するはずがないじゃないですか。
これらの問題は日本でのみ存在するという意見は偏りがあり事実ではないといいたいわけです。
日本には依然として根深い差別問題があります。いわゆる在日問題だけではなく同和問題などの様々な問題が、 かつてのようなあからさまな態様ではないものの、しかし依然として社会に沈殿しています。
また、外国人に対するアパート賃貸拒否などは生活の基本に関わるものだけに大変深刻な問題です 。
その他、声をあげようにもあげられない不法滞在者に関する人権侵害など、そもそも実態が十分に把握されてい ない問題もあります。
これらの問題を解決するためには、行政が積極的に介入できるような制度改正が必要です。日本は司法関係の予 算が他の先進諸国に比べて大変低く、法律が整備されてもその執行効率性が不十分であるという問題があります 。
ただ、日本がこれらの問題に対して何も対応していないというのは誤りです。アメリカとは取り組み方に違いが あるので外からは分かりづらいかもしれませんが。
同和問題に関する一例を挙げます。
http://homepage2.nifty.com/z-sai/Opi...shiyoukyu.html
また、ニューヨークタイムズの記事で「嫌韓流に対して主要メディアが反論をしていない」と指摘し、あたかも この本を容認しているかのような印象を与えていますが、これは事実に反します。
日本には「黙殺」という言葉があります。「無視して殺す」という意味です。日本の主要メディアは「嫌韓流」 を黙殺したのです。メディア界は、新聞やテレビがこの本を大きく取り上げれば、たとえ批判的であっても、一 般に広く認知されることになり、かえって売り上げを伸ばしてしまうことを危惧しているわけです 。
実際、この本の「売り文句」は「各出版社から過激すぎると、出版拒否された問題作」です。新聞や車内広告で さえ各社に拒否されたそうです。
私自身は、これらの書籍を積極的に取り上げて公に議論すべきであるとの立場ですが。
アメリカでもテレビとは違い、ラジオ番組などではあからさまな差別発言が乱舞しているのではないですか？車 社会のアメリカでは、ラジオメディアの影響力は依然として大変大きいと聞いています。
繰り返しになりますが、各国家・社会はそれぞれに差別問題を抱え、おのおのその解決に苦悩しているわけです 。
I agree with you fully on this regard.
There is a world of difference between Lost and Translation and the kind of racism Maciamo is talking about, and kkkktttt hasn't seemed to have caught on.
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