Gaijin, but with what kanji ?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Sorry if this is anal, but wouldn't 外神 be an outside or foreign god, and not a divine foreigner? I mean, the only reason 外人 means foreigners (as in people) is because of the second kanji, am I wrong?

外人 is basically　よその人
Is not 外神 basically よその神?

[Maciamo]

Sorry if this is anal, but wouldn't 外神 be an outside or foreign god, and not a divine foreigner? I mean, the only reason 外人 means foreigners (as in people) is because of the second kanji, am I wrong?

There hardly any difference between "outside god" and "divine foreigner".

First of all, there is hardly difference between 'outside' and 'foreign', as "foreign" comes from Latin "foras", which means "outside". My Oxford Dictionary also gives for defnition of foreign : "coming or introduced from outside".

Then, a "divine person" or "godly person" could basically be considered as a god. The most common way of representing god(s) in any religion is the human form. So we could say that the word "god" generally includes the meaning of "person". Therefore : a foreign/outside god = a foreign/ouside divine person = a divine foreign person = divine foreigner.

Sorry if that was too mathematical. foreign foreign

I wouldn't worry too much about the strictness of the meaning of kanji compound. It is in the nature of kanji not to distinguish between gender (male/female), number (singular/plural), function (subject/object) and word class (noun/adjective/adverb/verb). So, a kanji like 神 can mean 'god' (masc.sing.), 'gods' (masc. pl.), 'goddess' (fem.sing.), 'goddesses' (fem.pl.), while 上 can mean 'up' (adv.), 'above' (prep./adv.), 'rise/raise' (verb), 'top' (noun/adj.). The compound 上神 can thus mean "rising god", "god from above", "top god", or any alternative with gods, goddess, and goddesses. As for the function, it gets interesting with kanji that have several meaning. For instance, 着 means both "wear" (noun/verb) or 'cloth', but also "arrive" or "arrival". So 上着 could theoretically mean 'top wear','raised cloth', 'rising cloth' (whatever that means), 'arrive at the top', 'top arrival(s)', 'rise in arrivals', etc.

[Mikawa Ossan]

There hardly any difference between "outside god" and "divine foreigner".

This is what I disagree with, but I'll get back to this.

First of all, there is hardly difference between 'outside' and 'foreign', as "foreign" comes from Latin "foras", which means "outside". My Oxford Dictionary also gives for defnition of foreign : "coming or introduced from outside".

I couldn't agree more. I meant "or" in the inclusive sense.

Then, a "divine person" or "godly person" could basically be considered as a god. The most common way of representing god(s) in any religion is the human form. So we could say that the word "god" generally includes the meaning of "person". Therefore : a foreign/outside god = a foreign/ouside divine person = a divine foreign person = divine foreigner.

You're missing my point. I'm saying that a person is a person, and a god is a god on a very basic level. So that a 外人 refers to a person, whereas 外神 refers to a god.

I'm not talking about representations of gods. Now if you want to say that you're a god tongue in cheek, that's fine with me, but on a very basic Japanese level, I'm just saying that 外神 seems to me to literally refer to gods, not people.

Any metaphors you like to make notwithstanding, I think very few Japanese people would ever make the connection to "divine foreigner".

I'm not trying to rain on your parade, really!

[Maciamo]

I'm not talking about representations of gods. Now if you want to say that you're a god tongue in cheek, that's fine with me, but on a very basic Japanese level, I'm just saying that 外神 seems to me to literally refer to gods, not people.

Depending on your religious beliefs, there is hardly any difference between a god and a human being. Christians and other monotheists may think otherwise, but for polytheists such as Hindus or Ancient Greeks and Romans, gods live with humans, can procreate with humans, and some people (like Hercules/Herakles) can be half-god, half- 'ordinary' human. For the Japanese, this is even simpler, in case you doubted that they would understand my metaphor. In Shintoism, any human can become a god (at least a "kami" => 神 ) after death. Some emperors or famous generals have indeed be elevated as gods with their own shrines. For instance, Hachiman, the god of war, is none else than the deified Emperor Ojin. The Chinese think the same way. Lao Tzu, the philosopher who founded Taoism, became reverred as a god. That is why many Japanese (or Chinese) use the metaphor "he is a god" for exceptional people like baseball stars, sumo wrestlers or F1 drivers.

So, I do believe that many Japanese would understand the connection between 外神 and "divine foreigners", because a person can be called a god in their culture.

Personally I am an atheist, so the word god is completely devoid of meaning. I wouldn't mind calling myself or anybody of you "god(s)", for that reason.

Mike, I certainly could find myself "divine". But I could find a table or a grain of rice divine too. It just doesn't have any meaning to the atheist I am. For a Shintoist, it will mean "exceptional person". For an Ancient Greek, it would mean a kind of superpowerful and long-living human residing on the top of the Olympus, but mortal. For a monotheist, it means "above all beings of the creation" and surely also "eternal, omniscient and omnipotent". I therefore deduct from your subjective comment that you are a monotheist (or think like one anyway).

[Elizabeth]

I'm not talking about representations of gods. Now if you want to say that you're a god tongue in cheek, that's fine with me, but on a very basic Japanese level, I'm just saying that 外神 seems to me to literally refer to gods, not people.

Any metaphors you like to make notwithstanding, I think very few Japanese people would ever make the connection to "divine foreigner".

It clearly refers to gods, no Japanese is going to associate Shinto deificiation with a foreigner's afterlife, at least in the absense of any other context, and everyone knows that everyone else knows it. I vote we not make that into a humourous t-shirt.