Hello, again! I'm getting to really like Glenn!
Actually, I was referring to the fact that Japanese people in general don't seem to think about what foreigness is in the abstract sense. At this particular point in time, I was not intending to limit this idea to the concrete word 外人. Notice that I was not making a value judgement and I did not exclude non-Japanese specifically. This is off-topic, but I personally that most people have never thought about the abstract concept of foreigness because for the vast majority of people, it's just not pertinent.Originally Posted by Glenn
I agree with Glenn's statement 100%, but it actually adresses a slightly different point.
But an American just saying "for mother and country" without context showing otherwise would most certainly mean "for mother and America." Notice my argument here isn't that "country"="America."We acrtually disagree much less than you might think.Do Japanese people always use 国語 to mean "Japanese?" I'm sure they don't, but I'd bet that most of the time, especially without specific and extraordinary context, they do. Apparently you think so too, since you said "they would most likely not ever think of using it in terms of any other language."
First of all, my point is that the possibility of using the term 国語 to refer to anything other than Japanese inherently exists withing the meaning of the term itself. Nothing more, nothing less.
Almost all Japanese people seem to have no consciousness of this existance, and therefore "would most likely not ever think of using it" in such a way. But this is not just confined to the utterence of the word by Japanese people, but also should they hear it uttered by a non-Japanese to refer to the native language of said non-Japanese utterer.
I say this because in every case when I have said 国語 without specific context, the Japanese person I'm talking to has instantly assumed that I'm talking about Japanese 国語 without exception. For example, 「学生のころできるだけ国語の授業を避けたんだよね」 . The response I would almost inevitably receive is something like, "What are you talking about? You don't learn kokugo in America!" (What do you think is meant here? Japanese 国語 of course.) If I then explain in something like the following terms,
だって、本来、国語って、どういうことなんだろう?そ の国の言葉のことだろうね。たまたま日本での言葉は日 本語だから一般的にそれを国語というんだけど、俺の国 の言葉は日本語じゃなくて英語だから、アメリカ人の立 場から見ると英語が国語じゃないか?
they'll understand.
However, I found that a much more natural and efficient way to speak is to say something like アメリカの国語の授業. Often the conversation takes a brief pause as my Japanese counterpart contemplates that statement for a moment, but then always seems convinced without explanation.
So basically I think that the occurence of a Japanese person using 国語 to mean something other than Japanese, although not nonexistant, happens so infrequently that it approaches zero.
But the posibility that it can be used in such a way exists. That is what is important.Note that I never once disagreed with your stating that 国 can refer to Japan specifically. However, I would argue that that is relative, also. Once again, I quote 広辞苑(5th ed.)According to the 新漢語林, under the entry 国 is this listing, which is marked as being used in Japan only:
くに。わが国。日本。「国語」「国文」
(the bold typeface is not my own − the word appears that way in the dictionary). So there it's explicitly stated that the kanji can, on its own, mean Japan.Although given the context, usually meaning 2 and especially 3 is meant, given the same reasoning as I applied to 国語, Japanese people can easily understand 国字 used in a context other than referring to Japanese.Originally Posted by 広辞苑
I don't thing your examples using 国語 definitions help or harm your case in any way whatsoever.Originally Posted by Glenn
Your next point was interesting, however.I will not argue not with these definitions as put. Futher, my buddy 広辞苑 statesAlso from the 明鏡国語辞典, I get
this definition for 国語学, which I think proves my point further: 日本語を対象とし、日本語の音韻・文字・語彙・文法・ 文体などを通時的・共時的に研究する学問。日本語学。 Additionally, from the 大辞林 I get this:
Quote:
Originally Posted by 大辞林
こくご-がく 3 【国語学】
言語学の一分野として、国語(2)すなわち日本語を研 究対象とする学問。日本語の音韻・ 語彙・文法等の言語要素、およびそれらの歴史や地域差 としての方言、文字および文体などについて研究する。Even further, 広辞苑 has this to say about 外国人:Originally Posted by 広辞苑Oh no! Is this the end of Mikawa Ossan?Originally Posted by 広辞苑
I don't think so.
Perhaps I was hard on Gaijinian. Perhaps I was stressing the relative @ meaning of 外国人 too much at the expense of the stricter A meaning.
However, I did this because so many people, non-Japanese included, seem to use the gaijin moniker exclusively for non-Japanese people. It's as if Japanese people can NEVER be 外人 or 外国人. Or, put in the reverse, a non-Japanese is ALWAYS a 外人 or 外国人. Regardless of circumstances or point of view. I disagree with these premises. That is the heart of what I'm really trying to say.
I used one extreme to fight another. I admit this freely.
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