Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
I have discused this problem with a Japanese university professor of architecture, and he agrees that Japan has squandered its historical architecture. Even people like him are only starting to realise the importance of saving historic houses, and try to sensibilise the people. Japan only adopted a law on urban planning this year, he told me.
I wonder what that consists of... Just going off my gut here, I can't help thinking that historic preservation in huge cities like Tokyo and Osaka - save for a few neighborhoods and such - is simply uneconomical. Sure, the aesthetics of the place could be improved, but the age of the mansion is here to stay. The quaint paper and wood houses / temples etc. will be increasingly relegated to the countryside where land-use pressures are less. Personally, I think this is neither unreasonable, nor undesirable. I still feel lack of historical preservation has much less to do with the concept of "kirei" than it does to other more practical limitations and Japan's sense of its own history.

But back to the OP

Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
My wife used to think that some new "mansions" in Tokyo were beautiful, but after coming to Europe, she understood that they are not.
beautiful in the ustukushii sense or the clean sense?

Quote:
Mandylion - In my experience, a lot of Japanese art relies on the beauty of imperfections and the flavor/essence of a thing (as in "aji ga aru"), such as tea bowls, buildings, scrolls etc. These things are usually far from physically clean in the visual (and sometimes physical) sense, yet they are still objects worthy of "kirei."

Maciamo - These elements were indeed part of traditional Japanese architecture, but have disappeared in modern concrete constructions.
Then I wonder if the use of "kirei," according to your definition (as I understand it), is a recent development? I wonder if its usage will change if there is a growing appreciation for old things?

While clean=beautiful might have played a very small role in aesthetic decisions of new designs and a seeming disregard for Japan's old building (etc.), I think it has very little to do with either the historical development of Japanese cities, or a preference for the new over the old. For me, these are rooted more deeply in Japan's experience of at least the last 150 years. But I will save that for later if people are interested.