For our Japanese readers : Things you should not say to Westerners

[pipokun]

I have recently inquried toward a few Japanese friends, and some of my wife's friends, about the four season issue. I explained to my wife why I feel irritated at this question, and she also knows that most Western countries have four seasons. So we discussed, me, her, and two friends about it a few days ago, and the three of them admitted that they were taught at school that only Japan had four seasons. A few people have contested this on this forum, saying that children are taught that most countries around the world do not have as distinct seasons as Japan. However, my wife and our two friends were sure that, in their case, they were not told that Japan has more distinct seasons, but that only Japan had four season and that's it. I asked whether they were taught that in geography class, but the three of them said it was in "kokugo" (Japanese language) class sometime in the early years of primary/elementary school (they also said "chichai koro kara iwareteiru" => "we were told this since we were little"). All three went to different schools, by the way.

I've never taught like that only Japan had four seasons.
Maybe they only hesited to say that they were indifferent to geography. I forgot many math formulas I learned. In that sense, I can share your friends' feelings.

A bit off-topic, but when your wife has the same critical mindset as yours, it would be very nice of you to start a thread about Japanese education and the J Teacher's Union or 日教組.

[Maciamo]

I've never taught like that only Japan had four seasons.

Well, you are from Osaka, so maybe that's a difference between Western and Eastern Japan, like for where to stand on an escalator, the liking of natto or the hertz of electronic equipment. (just kidding)

Maybe they only hesited to say that they were indifferent to geography. I forgot many math formulas I learned. In that sense, I can share your friends' feelings.

No, my wife and one of my friends have travelled a lot around the world. This friend is quite good at geography. Unlike many Japanese he knew that, compared to Europe, Hokkaido was at the same latitude that the North of Italy, not the same latitude as England or Scandinavia as many people answer. Yet, he remembered clearly being taught at school that onlt only Japan has four seasons, although he knows that it's not true and also wondered why they were taught such things.

[TheKansaiKid]

I know it feels insistent on me to repeat this, but I really can't understand what this obsession with the gaijin's abilities to do banal things (chopsticks, futon...) is about. From my experience, after being asked these questions maybe between 50 and 100 times, I can say that most of the time it was not to break the ice, not to make small talks, mostly out of the blue, and the questioners' reaction was typically a great surprise when I told them that yes I could use chopsticks like everybody.

Take this with a grain of salt because I have only spoke to one native about this theory and after thinking about it for a minute said that is possibly true which is often Japanese for you are so full of sh!%.

I think that because of the flood of images from the west in the form of movies advertising etc. some Japanese have a bit of a national inferiority complex. The fact that a gaijin takes the time to learn Japanese is very validating to these people. It is further validating to know this gaijin has taken to heart things they find innately Japanese like chopsticks, futon, japanese food, etc. It's just a theory but sometimes helping to understand why people do things helps us be more understanding of their foibles.

[Annubis]

I really want to stress that this happens everywhere. The key is not to get this message out to all Japanese people, but to turn it around and make sure that people can learn how to assert themselves. For example, as a women learning the sciences and the only woman in my class at times, I experienced the above frequently... not the same questions, but all very similar by men. People should be allowed to be themselves. If they don't learn after asking the same questions over and over to various people, that is their fault. It is up to us to assert ourselves and know how to communicate the important information. In a hospital the most important information you need to give is the personal information and a fe words to comunicate your situation. If someone is speaking to you in English you should know that this is their job and they should know what they are doing. The English is secondary and only pleasure... no words are needed in serious situations. Think of those who are unconscious... what do they do? If you are not unconscious, you should be able to communicate the basics... such is the case anywhere you go. If you are in a situation where people are treating you as a tool or just not treating you at all, it is up to you to do what is necessary. ( I had this post all nicely written when I was timed out and lost the whole damn thing ) People are too quick to tell others what to do. We rarely think about what we should do ourselves. Anywhays, I know I didn't say what I really want to say. I hope you get the drift. My point is let people be. Make sure you are a good example and communicate effectively yourselves. Yes I can use chopsticks, many people I know can, I like sushi, etc...

[leander]

Dear Forum Members,

I am going to be doing a presentation/workshop at a center for international exchange here in Japan on "How (not) to talk to foreigners."

I have found the ideas on this and related threads very helpful for thinking about the kinds of things I would like to have the audience consider.

As an American fluent in Japanese and having lived in Japan since 2002, I tend to agree with many of the "Don'ts" that have been discussed here (particularly regarding the chopsticks routine). However, I am wary of putting such issues in an overly negative light. I want to avoid making my audience feel guilty or making them even more self-conscious than they may already be. Therefore, I would also like to focus on some "Do's" to balance with the "Don'ts" (or even rephrase some Don'ts as Do's).

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

[FrustratedDave]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

[Taiko666]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

I see your point. But if you went to the OP's house and he gave you a bib so you wouldn't splash your food on your clothes, and showed you some children's TV programmes because he assumed you couldn't understand grown up stuff, the OP would be guilty of at least a complete lack of empathy at how you'd feel being treated that way. I think that's where the OP was coming from.

And anyway, you yourself have let off steam about the way you're sometimes treated in Japan - eg the "modem man who spoke only to your wife and not to you." I think on that occasion you were pretty forthright in telling that person how they should treat you!

[FrustratedDave]

I see your point. But if you went to the OP's house and he gave you a bib so you wouldn't splash your food on your clothes, and showed you some children's TV programmes because he assumed you couldn't understand grown up stuff, the OP would be guilty of at least a complete lack of empathy at how you'd feel being treated that way. I think that's where the OP was coming from.

I am finding it hard to see the relation to your analogy and the intent of the original post??? I have never been treated like a baby.
Don't do the following things or act this way.
#1. Ask questions about food
#2. Ask questions about the weather & seasons
#3. Ask questions regarding general abilities
#4. Addressing a Westerner in a public place
#5. If addressed by a Westerner in Japanese
Just b/c the original poster can now do all the things he stated or has now reached a level where he does not want to be asked or acted upon in a certain way all Japanese should not ask these things??? That to me me is the height of arrogance.

When I first came here I had no understanding of Japanese and welcomed the people speaking to me in English. I had no idea what Japanese foods I could or could not eat and I learnt a great deal from questions about what food I could or could not eat. Questions about the weather, I did not even know that Japan had seasons were so different. Where I come from spring summer and autum are almost the same temperature.... very hot, so there is no four seasons like japan where I came from. About abilities, I could not use chopsticks either.

Now almost 15 years later I can do all the things mentioned and can do them very well ,I also understand about the four season that Japan has, I can eat just about anything except "uni" and still have people come up to me who I meet for the first time and ask me the same questions I was asked a long time ago. However, after I speak I don't asked any chopstick questions or the four seasons question any more. Every now and again I get asked what I can eat and what I don't like, but isn't that only natural for people to be curious of someone who has come from a different culture? It makes good conversation IMO b/c you can turn around and ask them what they don't like and lets face it Japanese love their food, it is their culture. So whats the problem?

So what has changed then? Well , not much really , b/c I still look like a forienger and was not brought up here so it is only natural that people have curiosity when we meet for the first time as they don't know my background and I see no harm in it at all. Once people talk to you and realize that you have been here for a long time most of these questions rarely ever come up if at all.

And going back to my analogy of going to someones house , I would get a bit upset if I went to someones house several times and they kept asking me the same questions. However when meeting new people it is like going to all different peoples houses for the first time and each time you go to a new persons house you may inevitably be asked the same questions over and over, that is just the way it is.

And anyway, you yourself have let off steam about the way you're sometimes treated in Japan - eg the "modem man who spoke only to your wife and not to you." I think on that occasion you were pretty forthright in telling that person how they should treat you!

Like I said in that thread, it will depend on the person you are dealing with as to how they will deal with you, sure I was annoyed but does that mean everyone does that to me? No it doesn't, What I did was address the person involved and only the person involved which is the way it should be done instead of grouping the entire Japanese population as rude and inconsiderate. So the original posters demands to all of the Japanese reading the thread is just insulting and I am very disapointed with the lack understanding on his part.

[Glenski]

Once people talk to you and realize that you have been here for a long time most of these questions rarely ever come up if at all.

Maybe for you. I've been here 10 years and still get people who know me saying how well I use chopsticks and how good my Japanese is, and asking if I can eat certain Japanese foods. Sheesh. Get a grip. These are people who know how long I've been here.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am finding it hard to see the relation to your analogy and the intent of the original post??? I have never been treated like a baby.
Don't do the following things or act this way.
#1. Ask questions about food
#2. Ask questions about the weather & seasons
#3. Ask questions regarding general abilities
#4. Addressing a Westerner in a public place
#5. If addressed by a Westerner in Japanese
Just b/c the original poster can now do all the things he stated or has now reached a level where he does not want to be asked or acted upon in a certain way all Japanese should not ask these things??? That to me me is the height of arrogance.

Do you really have to learn and practise to be able to eat sushi or be used to different seasons ?

Anyway the OP made some point about the way the Japanese should ask their questions and proposed better alternatives. I think that it is praiseworthy. I agree that I would be at a loss if someone asked me if I could eat fish. Can I, if you defy me ? Do I like fish in general ? What fish in particular ? Do I want to eat some now ? I wouldn't know what to think and how to answer such a question.

I had no idea what Japanese foods I could or could not eat and I learnt a great deal from questions about what food I could or could not eat.

So how did you answer the questions ? Say, if you have never eaten natto and people asked you if you could eat it, what would you answer ? Well, I suppose that you had better try all kind of foods quickly if you didn't want to answer "I don't know" every time you were asked.

I haven't lived in Japan, but I would be annoyed if people always asked me the same questions all the time. When I visited the country I was asked such questions by a lot of people I met. It must get tiring after a while. I don't think that is a sensible way to socialise.

Questions about the weather, I did not even know that Japan had seasons were so different. Where I come from spring summer and autum are almost the same temperature.... very hot, so there is no four seasons like japan where I came from.

Come on, 90% of Westerners come from temperate regions with 4 seasons. If you come from Florida or Arizona you are really the exception rather than the rule. All Europe is temperate.

Every now and again I get asked what I can eat and what I don't like, but isn't that only natural for people to be curious of someone who has come from a different culture?

Do you ask Japanese people what they can eat and can't eat ? I would ask people what are their favourite dishes or what they dislike in general, but not be specific about a dish (let's say spaghetti vongole) and ask everyone I meet if they can eat it.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

You are assuming that a foreigner in Japan cannot live there as if he were "home". Foreigners in Japan, like in any other country, can also buy their house in Japan and be part of society, as opposed to temporary guests or tourists.

I was born and grew up in a different country from where I have lived for half of my life until now. I find it offensive that people would think that I am just a guest after so many years. That is why I sympathise with the OP.

[Glenski]

Dear Forum Members,
I am going to be doing a presentation/workshop at a center for international exchange here in Japan on "How (not) to talk to foreigners."
I have found the ideas on this and related threads very helpful for thinking about the kinds of things I would like to have the audience consider.
As an American fluent in Japanese and having lived in Japan since 2002, I tend to agree with many of the "Don'ts" that have been discussed here (particularly regarding the chopsticks routine). However, I am wary of putting such issues in an overly negative light. I want to avoid making my audience feel guilty or making them even more self-conscious than they may already be. Therefore, I would also like to focus on some "Do's" to balance with the "Don'ts" (or even rephrase some Don'ts as Do's).
I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

You could shock the beejeezus out of everyone by coming in wearing a "No Japanese" T-shirt from Debito Arudou's site, for starters.

Probably not cool, though.

In what sort of venue will you be presenting? As a businessman, an English teacher, a student, a foreign spouse of a Japanese? Might make a difference. Who is your intended audience, and just what take-home point do you want to give?

Might not hurt to read a book or two called (English translation) "My Darling is a Foreigner". http://www.tokyomango.com/tokyo_mang...ling-is-1.html Maybe throw in some related remarks to wake everyone up with smiles. My wife loves the book.

I don't think you can avoid making the audience self-conscious unless you are Japanese like the author and present experiences like her. Just keep it light. My wife often jokes about what she'll do in my home country when people ask her about using forks and spoons ("Oh, they are so hard! Don't you have any chopsticks?"). Not sure if you can twist your talk to something along those lines of humor.

[nanook]

Maybe you might as well give them a short cultural "tour of the world", as not all foreigners, they may meet, will be US-Americans or Western-Europeans .
Not everybody outside Japan will be used to shake hands to greet or even shake their head, if they want to say "no".

Good luck, though