Radical difference between East and West regarding relationships and marriage

[-ShiroUsagi-]

Ah well I think it is very helpful to know two very different points of view, so thank you very much jt9258 and Becki kanou So basically the situation can go either way for either age groups lol. I was only wondering because yes japanese guys are pretty good looking ahaha but I personally always hear about the women, so I have no idea what the men are like. Anyway good to know, I will keep an open mind ^_^ ...but at the same time ahaha Im still curious.. so jt9258 to you are all japanese men like this? and where do you get your information? let the discussion continue! :P

[jt9258]

Oh brother...
Categorical statements and sweeping generalizations are rarely conducive to serious, constructive discussions.

Can you support your opinion with some constructive discussion.

Ah well I think it is very helpful to know two very different points of view, so thank you very much jt9258 and Becki kanou So basically the situation can go either way for either age groups lol.

Depends what Becki, regards as a Loving Relationship! I say this, because many foreigners who are married to Japanese, complain about the lack of, or no interest there marriage partner has in an intimate relationship, while they may both love each other, in many cases the Japanese partner does not show there love through intimacy, after marriage.

Many Japanese people do not link "Love" with having an intimate relationship with there marriage partner, howevewr while dating in a "Love Match" relationship the Japanese partner can be very passionate, though after marriage, and children this changes quickly, for foreigners who feel that good discussion in a relationship is important in resolving problems, they can find that the Japanese partner is separating "Love" and "Intimacy/Sex",and regarding sex as a seperate activity that has nothing to do with "Love", with some foreign men even being told to take a girlfriend, this can be extremely hurtfull to a man who wants to love his partner intimately.

I should add that for many Japanese women "Love" is related more to a mans ability to provide, than it being related to sharing an intimate relationship, money is king for Japanese women.

However it should not be forgotten that while many "Love Match" relationships with a Japanese partner does not always end in marriage, while the Japanese partner can be very passionate in this relationship, as time progresses the passion can deteriate quickly if the female partner does not see the relatiosnhip resulting in marriage, though for those foreign men, who make it clear to there Japanese partner, at some point in there relatiohsip, that they have no immediate desire to get married, they can find themselves loosing contact with there partner very quickly, because in the eyes of many Japanese women, if there is no prospect of marriage, then they see no point in continuing the relationship.

I was only wondering because yes japanese guys are pretty good looking ahaha but I personally always hear about the women, so I have no idea what the men are like.

Japanese men are not the same as western men, life for a man is about devoting ones life to the company they work for, this can, and will mean working late, after work
it means spending social time with co-woorkers, which can last into the early hours, while they will initially meet as a large group, as the night progresses the group will break up into smaller groups, visiting different bars, some even break off, and continue the social evening on there own, visiting hostess bars, soaplands etc.

Most Japanese men, do not show much interest in raising children, for what ever reason this may be, I am still confused by Japanese peoples lack of caring, though there work schedule does keep them away from there family, and they do not appear to have a problem with this, it can mean that the only real family time they have will be on a Sunday, though as mentioned each partner has a role to play in the marriage, with the wife being a mother to the children, and the husband being a provider, so his lack of interest with the children could be related to him only placing his role as provider, and placing more importance in devoting himself to the company he works for.

Though one explanation for a lack of caring in Japanese people, could be related to the fact that children are placed into nursery schools full time, at a very young age, so they fail to develop a strong relationship with there parents, only being surrounded by other children and care givers.

I should add here that while foreign men will fight to keep there children, or have contact with there children after a divorce, many Japanese men do not, so they can loose all contact with there children after divorce.

Im still curious.. so jt9258 to you are all japanese men like this? and where do you get your information? let the discussion continue!

I am not saying that all Japanese men and women are the same, though from the knowledge I have gained being married to a Japanese women, living, working, and socilizing with Japanese people, many are as I have said in my postings, additionally for a two year period I was in a unique position, in having a job working with other Japanese men, that permitted me to see into the private social lives of Japanese people, and I can say it was a real eye opener.

I would add here that the Japanese men that I worked with, and met as a result of
my work, found it strange that a man would want to have an intimate relationship with his wife, and as mentioned in my last post some even find the thought disgusting.

[ShadowSpirit]

Actually, I do have something to contribute on the subject of Japanese men and relationships. I recall a BBC documentary I had seen long ago that I believe provided some information that applies to this topic.

Just please keep in mind that 1) This is NOT my personal opinion of Japanese men or the Japanese culture. I am only describing what the documentary discussed. 2) What is in my personal opinion though, is that I'm certain not all Japanese men can be categorized as having the mindset of what I'm about to describe.

Okay. With the disclaimer aside. The topic of the documentary was in regards to Japan's notorious adult industry. Before you jump to conclusions about separating the mentality of men whom employ the use of such services apart from those whom don't. The point that stood out in my mind is why the school girl image is so profoundly popular for Japanese men. Unlike with most western men, whom find this image to be attractive because of the playfulness, youthful image, or of its ilk. Japanese men find comfort in the innocence that comes with the sight of a girl still trying to learn about the world. Japanese men feel awkward talking with women who speak their mind and have an opinion. It plays on the men's insecurities and unassurance for talking with such a woman. Whereas school girls tend not to have such independence or strong viewpoints. This brings about a comfort to the Japanese male that has helped to escallate the popularity of the inexperienced school girl.

The point being, that most Japanese men (as explained in this documentary) are shy and uncertain people when it comes to dealing with women. Which would help to reinforce jt's argument that Japanese men have a mama's boy mentality in a sense.

[uchimizu]

This is a great post, and I mostly agree with what Chidoriashi says. Unfortunately, I have the feeling many foreigners have opinions on Japan based on outdated information. There is also the issue that Internet, while providing mostly accurate information (there are not that many liers out there) often fails to provide the context (like how frequent is the story). This is why we often think exceptional behavior is the norm (every time I search for some medical information on the internet, I end-up convinced I have 3 cancers, and I need a physician to give me context, and explain me that I just have a cold). Also, we often compare the ideal situation in our country with the real situation in Japan, which is not fair.

One good example is "Omiai", or arranged wedding, which seems to be quite rare in Japan nowadays. The only time I heard about it what for people I know from the countryside, as they obviously cannot meet many people in their rice field, and especially not the rare woman who would accept the quite inconvenient life in the countryside. Arranged marriage was more common 50 years ago, but it was also so in Europe (not sure about the US).

Also, even in Europe, I found that combining 2 "top-level" professional careers and a family life can be really challenging, especially of one of the careers implies changing town every 3 years (would be the case in French public service for example). The pragmatic choice, even here in Europe, is often to have one "top career" and a more flexible one inside the couple. This is not so far from the japanese model where women will have "office lady" jobs until they have a child, and go back to work (sometimes for the same company) where the children go to school. Also, "office lady" does not mean serving tea to men in the company (this is pretty outdated), but sometimes doing quite interesting work, with less pressure and also less pay than the full time male employees.

I wrote two stories about couples in Japan and International couples with a japanese partner on my blog, and would love to have your feedback about it.

[Mikawa Ossan]

One good example is "Omiai", or arranged wedding, which seems to be quite rare in Japan nowadays. The only time I heard about it what for people I know from the countryside, as they obviously cannot meet many people in their rice field, and especially not the rare woman who would accept the quite inconvenient life in the countryside. Arranged marriage was more common 50 years ago, but it was also so in Europe (not sure about the US).

It's not as uncommon as you might think, as I've done it myself, but in my experience at least, it's not nearly as formal as what many people imagine.

[kusojiji]

In countries all over the world friends and family members introduce loved ones to people in the hopes of making a match, and have since the beginning of time. It is the "oooh, its foreign!" fallacy that leads people to construct all manner of specious explanations for behavior that is all but universal.

There are warm, loving relationships in Japan just like there are in whatever country you are from.

There are long-lasting committed marriages and tight-knit families in Japan just like there are in whatever country you are from.

There are fathers in Japan who are very involved in and committed to raising their children just like there are in whatever country you are from.

There are fathers and husbands who are cold, distant and uninvolved in Japan just like there are in whatever country you are from.

There are marriages that work out or don't work out for a great variety of reasons in Japan just like in whatever country you are from.

In other words, Japanese people are *gasp* human beings, despite what the impulse to dramatize and alienate would lead some to believe. It's a weakness that ought not be indulged.

[jt9258]

In countries all over the world friends and family members introduce loved ones to people in the hopes of making a match, and have since the beginning of time.

Yes! People do introduce friends, family members, and loved ones, to people, but not for the sole purpose of marriage.

It is the "oooh, its foreign!" fallacy that leads people to construct all manner of specious explanations for behavior that is all but universal.

I have never constructed anything, why would I do this when the main reason for understanding, and researching the culture, was to better understand my Japanese wife, and she is definately not like any women I have been involved with in the country I an from.

There are warm, loving relationships in Japan just like there are in whatever country you are from.

Yes! There are warm loving relationships in Japan, but its not to say, that either partner is Japanese.

There are long-lasting committed marriages and tight-knit families in Japan just like there are in whatever country you are from.

Yes! There are long-lasting marriages, and tight-knit families here, though it does not mean that the husband does not have a mistress, or does not visit hostess bars, or soaplands etc.

There are fathers and husbands who are cold, distant and uninvolved in Japan just like there are in whatever country you are from.

Yes! Many Jaopanese husbands are cold, distant, and uninvolved, because they are devoted to the comapany they work for, the company they work for is more important than there own family, it is not unusual for the children to regard their father as a total stranger, this would not happen in the country I am from.

There are marriages that work out or don't work out for a great variety of reasons in Japan just like in whatever country you are from.

Yes! Agreed! However in Japan, most divorces are started by the women, and in most cases because their husabnd failed to provide.

Money is king in Japan.

Let me just say this, my wife said some thing to me many years ago, and I will never forget this, she said " How can I love a man who cannot make money", while you may feel this to be a reasonable statement to make, when making this statement, it does not matter if I have the ability, experience, or knowledge, or work 24 hours a day, 7 days a week, to make money, what matters to a Japanese women, is actually physically holding that money in there hands, until then, nothing else is acceptable.

In other words, Japanese people are *gasp* human beings,

Yes! Japanese people are human beings, though there thinking in the majority of cases is 180 degrees the opposite to western thinking.

[kusojiji]

Trying to pass off your subjective opinions and ill-considered generalizations as 'truth' to people who may not know better is hardly helpful.

[jt9258]

Trying to pass off your subjective opinions and ill-considered generalizations as 'truth' to people who may not know better is hardly helpful.

Please explain how you see things in Japan.

[kusojiji]

........

See post #203.

[kusojiji]

Your ignorant generalisms are bordering on bigotry. What a load of BS.

-Yes, people all over the world make introductions with the hope that marriage might result, and it has been explained to you before that omiai does not always carry the expectation of marriage.

-All of the other examples you rehashed above could be said of any and every country on earth.

-"would not happen in the country I am from" and "Yes! Japanese people are human beings, though there thinking in the majority of cases is 180 degrees the opposite to western thinking." are statements well beyond stupid.

You are an offensive character.

[jt9258]

-Yes, people all over the world make introductions with the hope that marriage might result, and it has been explained to you before that omiai does not always carry the expectation of marriage.

Sorry! unable to include a link to the Wiki, for "Omiai"

Quote from Wki:-

Miai (見合い, literally "looking at each other") or omiai (お見合い, where the "o" is honorific.

My wife went through this process many years before I met her, and she did not want to get married to anyone at that time.

Quote From Wiki

Many modern women are stereotyped as looking for three attributes: height, high salary, and high education

And the modern Japanese women calls this the "Love Match", it really has nothing to do with love.

[jt9258]

Your ignorant generalisms are bordering on bigotry. What a load of BS.

I respect your opinion, though could you offer an explanation as to why you feel that what I wrote to be BS?

-it has been explained to you before that omiai does not always carry the expectation of marriage.

Ok! So if omiai does not always carry the expectation of marriage, then can you offer an explanation as to what the expectations are?

I will add that I have spoken with my wife on this subject, with her explaining that when these meetings took place the thinking in the mind is "marriage", and my wife also said that she has had two of these meetings in the past, though as she had no image of what marriage life could be, she was not interested, but more importantly she did not really want marriage.

-"would not happen in the country I am from" and "Yes! Japanese people are human beings, though there thinking in the majority of cases is 180 degrees the opposite to western thinking." are statements well beyond stupid.
You are an offensive character.

Could you offer an explanation as to why you feel that my statements are stupid?

[ShadowSpirit]

kusojiji, jt9258: Gentlemen. Try not to get personal about this. Both of you raise valid points and have noble intentions. I think things are just getting a bit misunderstood.
kusojiji: I have a pen-pal who is a 35 year old woman caucasian woman from Canada. On a whim, she decided to act on an offer to teach English in Yokohama approximately 3 weeks ago. She knew absolutely nothing about Japan and I found her friendship based on a profile she had set up asking for friends to help her learn about the culture. I didn't tell her anything in my findings. Instead I have been teaching her some of the basics on the language and in turn she has been telling me about things she experiences or learns about the people from her personal standpoint.
Why am I bringing this up? Because plenty of the things that jt9258 has told me was also said to me by this woman as well. Including a few other things I was surprised she revealed to me considering that I never probed her on the topic. Such as a Japanese man propositioning her for sex because he says his wife is pregnant and is no longer someone he can be intimate with. He claims his wife knows of his pursuits for sex elsewhere and has his consent. I've also researched the CIA World Factbook about Japan. The birth rate per couple is 1.5. Which tells me that oftentimes, procreation doesn't happen 'often' after the first child is born.
As much as I may hate to admit it. jt9258 is accurate in a lot of ways. Even if he paints a very general and often cynical perspective of relationships in Japan.
jt9258: However, kusojiji is also correct and he shares an opinion that I hold myself. I'm not taking sides on this, I'm just being honest in admitting that I understand where kusojiji is coming from and I feel the same way. jt9258, you need to understand that what might be the popular opinion of the masses, is not necessarily the entire truth as a whole. If you've read anything Pachipro has written of himself, or more so of his life experiences in Japan which he has been kind enough to divulge to me; You would see that he has met many women and men who don't fall anywhere near the stereotypes you have painted for Japanese people.
Furthermore, America in the pre Women's Rights days was portrayed as a place where women respected their husbands, cleaned house, and upheld the image of being happy and content. This was the common practice of America and to the untrained eye, it seemed like this was very much how it was everywhere. Yet just as kusojiji argued, people are people. If women were so happy, there wouldn't had been this uproar for women's rights. Which serves to demonstrate that even while women in America kept mostly quiet about their feelings on matters, doesn't mean that they didn't secretly want to resist the life they lived. Nor did all women conform to this way of thinking even while they were quiet about it.
I suppose when you put a label on people. It robs them of the potential to be something more. This can upset some people and confuse others. As I've said. Both you men have a point. Japan does have a culture that it practices as a large part, and understanding as much as I can about that helps me to at least know what is expected of Japanese people, even if they choose to not participate. So for that, I thank jt9258's perspective. Though people do break from their molds or often never had a mold to begin with. For that, I also thank kusojiji's passion for letting it be known that humanity is too complicated of a thing to be defined by stereotypes.

[kusojiji]

Are you not paying attention, or what?

[kusojiji]

I've explained it to you already. Are you 'slow' or something?

[jt9258]

I've explained it to you already. Are you 'slow' or something?

No! You have provided a list of what could be regarded as generalizations, though nothing
specific that would support your reasons for disputing what I have written, additionally
you are also disputing what I have said about my wife.

[kusojiji]

First of all, leave your family out of this. Have a little class at least, if you can manage it.

Secondly, I've told you that every "In Japan THIS happens" generalism you keep repeating occurs in every country on earth.

I am convinced at this point that you are a no-class bigot, as well as a weak minded simpleton.

[ShadowSpirit]

Okay. This is getting nowhere fast. Things are getting really sour on this topic when it probably should remain friendly and educational. It's apparent that there isn't going to be a compromise between jt9258 and kusojiji. So if possible, I'll try to take the direction away from a debate and just concentrate on the facts.

Here is an enlightening poll I encountered in regards to trends for relationships in Japan. I've picked out highlights of the poll, as it is too long to post the whole thing. This should help answer some questions for people fond or curious of Japanese females and males alike...

-----90% of single Japanese men and women in their twenties and thirties hope to marry someday, with motivations including love, the wish to create a home, and the desire to have children. The most important criteria by which these people judge prospective marriage partners are character, shared values, and compatibility. They see the ideal couple as equal partners who talk a lot and can discuss anything. However, one in three singles does not wish to have a wedding ceremony, while nearly 70% want only one or two children, and 15% do not want any children at all. With people tending to marry later nowadays and a growing number of people choosing not to marry at all, the number of children is on the decrease.

In another multiple-response question, the survey subjects were asked how they would like to meet their future spouse. The most commonly chosen answer was "in a natural fashion, at school or at work" (87%), followed by "through an introduction by a mutual friend" (50%), "at a meeting arranged by a matchmaker" (20%), and "on a group date" (18%).

The survey asked respondents to list the top five attributes they seek in a marriage partner. The five most frequently listed criteria were "character" (cited by 69% of respondents), "shared values" (55%), "compatibility" (46%), "kindness and consideration," (45%), and "my affection for him/her" (40%). Other qualities included "income and wealth" (cited by 35% of respondents), "his/her affection for me" and "honesty/faithfulness" (both cited by 34%), and "attractiveness to the opposite sex" and "appearance" (18% each). Women appear to have become less concerned than they once were about a man's height, education, and income - the "big three" benchmarks against which women have traditionally judged prospective husbands. Only 2% of respondents to this survey cited academic background as a key criterion in selecting a marriage partner

Meanwhile, responses more prevalent among people living outside Tokyo were "when I feel looked down upon by society for being single," "when I feel ready to separate from my parents," and "when my parents and the people around me start to pester me about getting married." The findings reveal that while the Tokyoites' attitudes toward marriage are strongly tinged with individualism, those of people living elsewhere are more imbued with concern about relationships with parents and the surrounding community.

Among both sets of respondents, "character" topped the list of desired attributes for a marriage partner. However, that attribute scored higher among people living outside of Tokyo. "Income and wealth" was also more prevalent among non-Tokyo residents. Meanwhile, both "my affection for him/her" and "his/her affection for me" were chosen more often by respondents living in the capital than by their provincial counterparts.

As for the attributes of the ideal couple, respondents in the metropolitan area said that number one was being "equal partners" and number two was being able to "talk a lot and discuss anything." Province dwellers cited the same top two, but in reverse order

Views of the ideal couple differed as well. Most important to men were, first, that the couple be equal partners; second, that they talk a lot and be able to discuss anything; and third, that the man share in the housework. Women put conversation first and equal partnership second. And the number-three response among women was "the couple go on dates from time to time even after the children are born."-----

So it leads right back to the same thing we had been discussing earlier. The more rural you get from Tokyo, the more old-fashion the person is going to be. The women are more concerned with love and affection than they are with being equal partners. The women also do hope that the relationship stays intimate long into the marriage, even if things don't end up that way. Matchmaking services (which I don't personally feel is anywhere the same as an arranged marriage) is a popular service, but is not a preferred one by women. It would seem that peer pressure forces women to use whatever option they can to hopefully find a man to be with. It must be difficult for some women in Japan (and men) to find a mate when they live in a society that has strong expectations of their relationship. Afterall, how can a man and woman be free to marry whomever they want if their parents are old-fashion and have certain expectations of them?

Things played out just as the majority of the people posting on this thread had guessed it would. With the couple wanting a loving relationship, the women desiring affection, the men wanting someone they can talk to, and yet still a significant fraction of people follow very traditional values. Sounds just like (for those of you familiar with the United States) comparing California to Georgia.

I guess the safer thing to do is just to assume that anything discussed that isn't cited nor a personal experience, is instead an opinion about one personality type of person. jt9258's wife might very well be the cookie-cutter traditional Japanese woman that gets portrayed in Madame Butterfly stories. He should know better than us, he is married to her. When it comes to learning about the opinions and attitudes of women like that, then his advice can prove to be very valuable.

Though lets do our best not to assume that all women in Japan are like that. From the demographics I listed in this post, it would seem that most aren't like that at all. Once again, take note that there are always exceptions to these numbers. For all we know, most of these same people did end up marrying into arranged marriages or live out similar lives to that of jt9258 and his wife. Yet that could be because it was expected of them. The point being, that what people feel and what people do are separate things. There are likely men and women who think they want to have a traditional Japanese lifestyle, then end up meeting someone they fall emotionally hard for, and completely change their minds about tradition by marrying into a relationship based on loving emotions.

[kusojiji]

At the risk of beating this very dead horse (when eating it would be a much better use), let me say:

In America, tall, rich, handsome men are generally more attractive to women (and more likely to get the best job, promotion, be elected President, etc) than short, ugly, poor guys. It's the way of the world, regardless of nationality.

In America, couples married for 20, 30 years or more are much less likely to be going at it like bunnies or staying up all night gazing lovingly into each other's eyes by candle light and sucking on opposite ends of a piece of spagghetti and composing poetry to each other than newlyweds. If not, sitcoms would lose more than half their material.

In America, it's a lot harder to 'go out on dates' after little ones arrive than before. It's also harder to be 'sexy' and romantic when you are covered in vomit, smell of dirty diaper, and have not slept in three days. That's life, not a particular culture. Maybe some people are too young to understand this and what it really means.


None of these 'things' about people and relationships apply to Japanese couples any more than they do American couples. It's just life. We tend (or decide) to see things differently when we view them through the bias of "foreign," and judge them by a different standard. That is weak and simple thinking and at its root the same misapplication of an ancient survival instinct that leads to racism and all its related evils.

I think a better question (and one that we could discuss with far less discord) is to what extent the difference between 'traditional' and 'modern' is really a difference between 'practical' and 'indulgent' and what that might mean.

[ShadowSpirit]

*cooks one of the horse legs* We'll just bit by bit gobble this horse up.

kusojiji: You make another valid point. I'm just not sure why you keep thinking that this is a 'foreign' perspective? I can speak on anybody else's behalf. Thus from my own perspective, I see this discussion as more of an exercise in Japanese practices rather than foreign differences. Just as my posts on this thread first stated, I was determined and convinced that the stereotypes surrounding Japanese people couldn't possibly apply to everybody. I was just on a trek to learn just how common or uncommon some of these practices may be.

We've definitely beaten this whole theme of every country having a bit of everything. Whether it be rich vs poor, clean vs sloppy, modest vs arrogant, and so forth. It's an exercise in learning what traditions, practices, or customs are often practiced in Japan. The similarities between Japan and other countries are obviously going to be dead on to each other. Cause as we both agree, people are people. Our desires, our hopes, our dreams, are all going to be similar and the usual suspects will brance out into their typical groups (rebels, conformists, etc..) There will be the subtle similarities too, such as going into a Japanese store with the greeting of. "Irrashaimase." Else go into an American Walmart and hear. "Hello, thank you visiting Walmart." Basically, I think we all get it. People are people, similarities are abound. Though to pretend that one country doesn't run itself different from another is blinding. Japan's population consists of over 99% nihonjin. This doesn't make the country better or worse than another. It does however make it different then the United States as an example. Animation was a more financially feasible means of adult storytelling after WWII in Japan and helped to create a cult phenomenon that thrives today in the affectionately named anime. Whereas in America, the concept of adult storytelling by use of animation has been tried (in such flicks like Heavy Metal for example,) but never really sparked the same kind of appreciation as Japanese did for their animation. Which now has resulted in Japan housing some of the most talented artists in the world and showing the rest of the world just how powerful drawn animation can be.

I'm going off on a tangent again. I bring this all up to say that differences are there. Try not to read too much into all of this nor take it personally. Most of us on this thread aren't out to put a label on anybody. We're just discussing the traditions and practices. The subtle differences that exist. Just like if someone was to ask me what California is like (as I'm a native of California.) Then to ask me. "Well, I hear Californians are homosexual." I don't get upset by comments like that. It's obvious that a geographic location isn't going to decide what a person's sexual orientation is. However, I am going to acknowledge that California has some very liberal areas such as the infamous San Francisco, and as a result, homosexual behavior is accepted in public. Thus, it is at times easier to identify who has a homosexual, bisexual, or heterosexual orientation. Since very few people are hiding it in those parts of California. So once again, the subtle differences do exist and it is understandable that someone outside of California would get the wrong impression.

Granted, jt9258 might be a bit one-sided in his views (in my personal opinion) and doesn't show too much consideration for people whom don't fall into his views. Though I don't feel it is much in his interest to argue against his own point. He's just trying to get his feelings across, he feels passionate about it. We learn from it too. Even if we choose to not agree with what he says, or if anybody chooses not to agree with what I say. You still learn something about the impressions that people possess on subjects. If we discourage others from speaking their mind, then bigotry is going to thrive. Whereas if they get their views out on the table, we can start discussing the facts and hopefully help each other realize that differences are mostly arbitrary.

I realize that on the surface, all my inquiries and mongering on Japanese culture might give a bad impression, as if I'm not capable of looking at them as people instead of mystical objects in a collector's glass case. But this is not true to who I am. I have only the best intentions in mind. Hell, I even feel gitty like a child. I'm excited to live in a country outside of my own. Though, true to my actual personality; I'd like the people who have been reading my posts to know that if I do end up in a serious relationship or marriage with a Japanese woman, I am not going to treat her like a Japanese person. She's going to be my friend, my lover. Whatever traditions her or I choose to practice, will be out of our habits or liking. It isn't going to be about me having expectations of her because she was raised the Japanese way, and I don't want her having expectations of me having been raised as an American. It's from the heart first. Still, it doesn't help for me to know things in advance, such as my potential girlfriend probably wouldn't appreciate it much if I didn't remove my shoes before entering the house.

[kusojiji]

My objections were not directed at you Shadowguy, but at jt####. You seem to have a reasonable, balanced view of things.

[ShadowSpirit]

ah, ok. Well, try not to be too hard on the guy though. Yeah, he did ask questions about things that you already pointed out in earlier posts. Though he means well. I guess he just didn't realize you answered his questions already.

[ShadowSpirit]

jt9258: I'm going to try to help you out a bit by pointing out when kusojiji answered your questions and elaborating on some of it...

jt9258 said. "I respect your opinion, though could you offer an explanation as to why you feel that what I wrote to be BS?"

kusojiji said. "Japanese people are *gasp* human beings, despite what the impulse to dramatize and alienate would lead some to believe. It's a weakness that ought not be indulged."

My opinion. Basically jt9258. Every time you ask kusojiji to explain himself, it is repetitive. Because he already summarized that you aren't being fair by categorizing all Japanese people into one mindset. Everytime he tells you that your views are BS, and you ask why, it's always going to point back to the idea that so long as you keep labeling people, that he won't take much value in the things you're saying. You can't just say things like. "I have never constructed anything, why would I do this when the main reason for understanding, and researching the culture, was to better understand my Japanese wife, and she is definately not like any women I have been involved with in the country I an from." and not expect it to be upsetting. Because think about this statement for a moment. You honestly expect people to believe that every Japanese woman (when it probably isn't even most,) is exactly the same? Outlook on love, outlook on marriage, outlook on life in general. Yet not a single woman in your country of origin outside of Japan acts anything like a Japanese woman? You make matters harder on yourself when you say things like this...

"Yes! There are warm loving relationships in Japan, but its not to say, that either partner is Japanese." and also. "Yes! There are long-lasting marriages, and tight-knit families here, though it does not mean that the husband does not have a mistress, or does not visit hostess bars, or soaplands etc."

That's kind of harsh. Whether you meant to be rude or not. You just outright said that no Japanese person, male or female alike, can function in a loving relationship. Whether both partners are Japanese or not. Furthermore, you portray all Japanese men as unfaithful to their wives. It's one thing to say that most Japanese men (whether it is true or not, I do not know) are unfaithful. Yet to say that a man of any country, whether Japanese or otherwise, does not have any ability to be faithful. Is very insulting to that race and culture. jt9258, are you from a country where all men are faithful to their wives? If so, you might want to let that secret out of the bag for the sake of the ladies. I bet many of them will want to start husband hunting there.

jt9258 said. "Ok! So if omiai does not always carry the expectation of marriage, then can you offer an explanation as to what the expectations are?"

kusojiji said. "In countries all over the world friends and family members introduce loved ones to people in the hopes of making a match, and have since the beginning of time."

My opinion. Well, you both agree that omiai means to make a match. What you're overlooking jt9258 is that kusojiji already told you that there isn't anything new in matching people up. Whereas the English word for it is match-making, Japanese apparently call it omiai. Though it doesn't mean the people are destined to get married. You gave an example of this yourself. "my wife also said that she has had two of these meetings in the past, though as she had no image of what marriage life could be, she was not interested, but more importantly she did not really want marriage." Well, that is contradicting. Cause you said omiai is only for marriage-minded people. Maybe someone might want to settle down and welcome help friend peers, family, or even dating services. Yet it doesn't mean they're going to get married. They are probably just looking for help to find friends, romance, love, as well as marriage. But not exclusively on the latter. If you managed to read the demographics I posted earlier, you'll notice that marriage as a business proposition is not as popular in Japan as you make it out to be. Still the same, there are women in America whom proposition marriages on a financial basis. We call them gold diggers. Which goes right back to kusojiji's point. That no matter where you go, you're going to see the same things in people. Thus, if there are plenty of gold diggers in America. That must mean there are plenty of romantic and faithful people in Japan. To say or pretend otherwise is just upsetting and enfuriating.

jt9258 said. "would not happen in the country I am from" and "Yes! Japanese people are human beings, though there thinking in the majority of cases is 180 degrees the opposite to western thinking."

My opinion. Again I have to ask. What country are you from exactly? Don't answer this question though if you don't want me finding substantial evidence that the negative things you have said about Japanese people applies also to people of your homeland. Cause I consider myself a crafty researcher. I will find the similarities of both good and bad between nihonjin and any country you pick on the globe.

jt9258 said. "Could you offer an explanation as to why you feel that my statements are stupid?"

Again. Asking this is likely testing kusojiji's patience. Because until you realize that all people aren't the same, and stop making Japanese people sound like their practices are so alien to western countries, you're just going to keep underminding the first point kusojiji already made to you. That being. "Japanese people are *gasp* human beings, despite what the impulse to dramatize and alienate would lead some to believe. It's a weakness that ought not be indulged."

Hopefully this helps put things into perspective for you jt9258.

[jt9258]

My opinion. Basically jt9258. Every time you ask kusojiji to explain himself, it is repetitive. Because he already summarized that you aren't being fair by categorizing all Japanese people into one mindset. Everytime he tells you that your views are BS, and you ask why, it's always going to point back to the idea that so long as you keep labeling people, that he won't take much value in the things you're saying.

It's not about labeling people, it's about providing information about what I have experienced, seen, and heard.

You honestly expect people to believe that every Japanese woman (when it probably isn't even most,) is exactly the same? Outlook on love, outlook on marriage, outlook on life in general.

No! I do not expect anyone to believe that every Japanese women will be the same, or even have the same personality, they are all different. But when they live in Japan, they feel they have to do what is expected of them, and follow cultural roles that they may very well not like, Japanese women are leaving marriage until much later in life for this very reason.

Yet not a single woman in your country of origin outside of Japan acts anything like a Japanese woman?

There are women outside Japan that have similarities to Japanese women, but they do not live within a culture that means they have to conform to what is expected of them, or have the mind that they feel they must conform.

Furthermore, you portray all Japanese men as unfaithful to their wives. It's one thing to say that most Japanese men (whether it is true or not, I do not know) are unfaithful.

I am not saying that all Japanese men are unfaithfull, what I am saying is that Japanese men do not have an interest in there wives after children, because they do not view them as women anymore, so many do have relationships outside the marriage, or seek a "Sex Friend", and there are wives who will actually encourage there husbands to take a girlfriend/sex friend, and do this without questioning or complaining, because that's how things are done.

jt9258, are you from a country where all men are faithful to their wives?

No! though the difference is that when a man has a mistress here in Japan, the mistress will have no expectations from him other than the time they spend together, she will respect him as being a married man, and will never expect him to leave his wife for her, even when she may be under peer pressure to take a husband, and in most cases they will even share the cost of the time they spend together.

If you managed to read the demographics I posted earlier, you'll notice that marriage as a business proposition is not as popular in Japan as you make it out to be.

While surveys may show that the concensus is that it is not as popular, it does not mean that in reality Japanese women can accept living different married lives, that do not follow what is expected of them, as I have mentioned, Japanese women are leaving marriage till later in life, because they feel it wrong to do some thing different than what is expected of them, though with older age, it brings the problem that many Japanese men will not be interested in these women, because they prefer younger cute women, though when they do get married, they may very well just regard it as a business relationship, and label it as a happy marriage.
Also it should be remembered that there are Japanese women ( Not All), who marry foreign men because they want a different better life, than being married to a Japanese man, though in reality they still follow the cultural norm, when living in Japan, and treat there foreign husband, as if he was the same as a Japanese man, which results in many foreign men complaining of living in loveless, sexless marriages.

Still the same, there are women in America whom proposition marriages on a financial basis. We call them gold diggers.

Yes! I agree! though a gold digger would never consider a relationship/marriage with an english teacher or a salary man, on an average salary, and then expect him to live in a sexless, loveless marriage, Japanese women are looking to ensure that a man can provide for the family, and will place more importance on this than an initmate loving relationship.

That must mean there are plenty of romantic and faithful people in Japan. To say or pretend otherwise is just upsetting and enfuriating.

I am not saying that there are no Japanese people that live romantic, and faithfull lives, what I am saying is that there is no way of knowing how any relationship would develop after marriage, because many foreign men have as I have mentioned, complained that their once passionate girlfriend, is no longer interested in sex after marriage, and many foreigners do not feel loved, by their partners when there is no intimate relationship between them..

Cause I consider myself a crafty researcher. I will find the similarities of both good and bad between nihonjin and any country you pick on the globe.

I am not disputing that there are similarities, though making comparisons to people living in other countries, while not considering the culture that they feel they must follow is not respecting the Japanese.