I have met kids as you describe, but so far they have been a minority of the younger Japanese (under 15) I have met. What surprises me is that such kids would come at me and say strange things in the street (or make comments about "gaijin"to their friends/parents assuming I can't understand what they say).Originally Posted by Ewok85
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"What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.
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In respect to the "blanket statements" that have been made, I urge you to look over the post again and look at the disclaimers! I don't think the half empty/half full argument is the point here; rather, it's the way Japanese people in general react towards cultural outsiders. When I first came to Japan, I spent a year living in Osaka. And, like it's been said, I was subject to the same inane questions as every other foreigner. It didn't piss me off. It never has. It might get annoying once and awhile, but obviously it hasn't driven me to hysterics. It has made me more interested in why Japanese people perceive foreigners as being so. I'm simply curious as to the underlying social aspects of this. Again, this isn't just groundless complaining, but rather a critique in general. Calling all sociologists...
I wasn't going to post this next story originally, but I think it's relevant now.
I've been living in a small town in Wakayama now for about two years. The people here are always nice to me, and incredibly friendly. Consequently, I've done my best to take part in the community, volunteering with people, visiting my neighbors, etc. I have never known such great people. Example: When I was sick during Christmas, EVERYBODY took care of me. My neighbors brought me hot soup, took me to the hospital, my boss brought me TONS of food, people were always calling to see how I was doing. Those were the nicest things anyone has ever done for me. My neighbors even came over and did my dishes. (The tried to clean my whole house, but I stopped them.)
That's the good story. Next comes the bad one. The bad reflects quite negatively on these same people, but it makes a valid point. Not sure if I'll post it yet.
Let's reverse this. Is it not the same in America and Europe? Don't most, especially the younger generation, feel that most everything they see was invented in their own country?
My wife and I have been asked similar things here in the states. It's always hot in Japan isn't it? Do you have TV's, satellite TV, highways, CD players, etc. Most people assume that Japan is still a third world country. They are ignorant of the fact that Japan is a modern, industrialized country much like the US or Europe. Heck, most Americans don't even know that a large majority of what they perceive to be American products are in fact foreign. Shell oil and Toyota come to mind. They, mostly the younger ones, are shocked when they find out that Shell is in fact Dutch, and Toyota is a Japanese company. A few even assume that "Cup of Noodle" is an American invented product. Much the same as in Japan with your observations above. It must be the same all over and I don't think it is unique to Japan.
Does it bother my wife and annoy her that, after 16 years in the states, she is asked similar things by Americans? (She's even asked often if she eats meat!) No, she just tries to educate them and has come to understand that a majority of people are not taught about Japan. It's a sad but true fact.
Therefore, while in Japan as "educators" why not try and educate the Japanese rather than being annoyed to the point of irritation? After 30 years experience, I do not think it is going to change. Those questions will come time and time again until someone educates them. So far, I don't think it is going to be the educational institutions.
Personally, I enjoyed answering the "stupid and dumb" questions over and over and over again, after laughing out loud first, as it was an opportunity to teach somebody something they didn't already know. Afterwards, I'm sure they would not ask that question again of a foreigner as now they were enlightened. I used to love watching the kids, Junior and High, and even some college students', faces light up with shock, disbelief, and surprise when they were informed that Disneyland is not Japanese, Snoopy was born in America, and the "Circle K" and "7-11" combinis are American among other answers. I think I remember reading somewhere that "7-11" is now owned by Ito Yokkado.
I used to answer in Japanese, "Of course I can eat with chopsticks, eat sushi, sleep in a futon, cook my own rice, etc. etc. I've lived here for 16 years!" My polite answer to their "dumb" question kind of humbled some of them and I'm sure they felt awkward asking that question.
Don't get me wrong here, I was just as annoyed during my early years in Japan as some of you to the point of wanting to scream at the top of my lungs, "What! Are you all a bunch of idiots! Are we all nothing but talking dogs to you people, here for your amusement?" But I learned to study, observe, and learn from the Japanese people and culture and why they acted in this way. I asked many questions of the Japanese. Soon, my thinking slowly turned 180 degrees and it no longer irritated me as I learned that, no matter what, the Japanese are basically not prejudiced, xenophobic, or have an underlying dislike of all foreigners. They are just a curious island people who were taught that they, their history, and their ways are unique to the rest of the world and any foreigner that adapts, or tries to adapt, is the most curious and unique of all. Answering "dumb" questions, I hope, helped set the record straight with those I came in contact with.
Therefore, I looked at myself as a kind of unofficial "cultural ambassador" as it was obvious that no one else was going to educate them.
Do What You Love And You'll Never Work Another Day In Your Life!
That must be only in the States. Americans however have better reasons to be confused, as many famous people moved to the States and become American (eg. Einstein), or some famous companies from other countries are bought up by big US multinational (eg. Belgian chocolate Godiva is now American).
Again, that must be only in the US. Most Europeans see Japan as a resolutely modern country. The first things that spring to mind to a European about Japan is technology, electronics, robots, futuristic cars and video games - well before the traditional culture. But it was such a shock for me to see how backward Japan actually was in so many respect (socially, politically, architecturally...) and I had no idea, that I feel it a duty to make the world (or my fellow Europeans) know about it. On my first day in Tokyo, I thought I had arrived in Bangkok (where I have been, so I can compare).My wife and I have been asked similar things here in the states. It's always hot in Japan isn't it? Do you have TV's, satellite TV, highways, CD players, etc. Most people assume that Japan is still a third world country.
What ! Is there people in the States who think that Toyota is American !!That doesn't improve my image of the average American, I can assure you !
And FYI, Shell is half-British, not 100% Dutch.
What ! Is there people in the States who think that Toyota is American !!
While we were touring Japan last summer, a Japanese person asked one of our tour members if we have McDonalds in America.
Some there may think that McDonalds originated in Japan.
First, you must not have read my first post. To quote myself:Let's reverse this. Is it not the same in America and Europe? Don't most, especially the younger generation, feel that most everything they see was invented in their own country?I didn't say other cultures aren't guilty of this as well,Who said I wasn't?Therefore, while in Japan as "educators" why not try and educate the Japanese rather than being annoyed to the point of irritation? After 30 years experience, I do not think it is going to change. Those questions will come time and time again until someone educates them. So far, I don't think it is going to be the educational institutions.
Would you deny that Japanese society has xenophobic tendencies? Again, I think you've misconstued what I've been saying as a personal attack on Japanese people.Japanese are basically not prejudiced, xenophobic, or have an underlying dislike of all foreigners.
I'll have to disagree here. Even some of the poorly educated kids I knew from the city know that Japan is industrialized.Most people assume that Japan is still a third world country.
Here's an interesting example to talk about: Today I was having lunch at a school I've been teaching at for 2 years. The teachers sitting next to me where having a discussion about the Bush regime and it's policies with North Korea. As they were speculating about the US government, I politely offered some comments on my perceptions. (In Japanese.) And, (I'm not joking) the response I got from the Kocho Sensei was "Do you have ka-re in America?"
(We were eating curry udon for lunch today....)
Does this strike you as strange? I can guarantee you this kind of thing happens frequently. And I'm not ragingly bitter about it. I smiled, told him yes and went on to have a nice lunch. Is it wrong for me to want to hear other's speculations on this kind of behavior?
Again, I completely endorse Mad Pierrot's comments. I feel the exact the way (but I am not in the mood to put it so eloquently today). Thanks again.Who said I wasn't?
...
Would you deny that Japanese society has xenophobic tendencies? Again, I think you've misconstued what I've been saying as a personal attack on Japanese people.
...
Here's an interesting example to talk about: Today I was having lunch at a school I've been teaching at for 2 years. The teachers sitting next to me where having a discussion about the Bush regime and it's policies with North Korea. As they were speculating about the US government, I politely offered some comments on my perceptions. (In Japanese.) And, (I'm not joking) the response I got from the Kocho Sensei was "Do you have ka-re in America?"
(We were eating curry udon for lunch today....)
Does this strike you as strange? I can guarantee you this kind of thing happens frequently. And I'm not ragingly bitter about it. I smiled, told him yes and went on to have a nice lunch. Is it wrong for me to want to hear other's speculations on this kind of behavior?
Yeah, same here. I live in the South and most of the "rednecks" around here know enough to know that Japan is known for their highly advanced "gadgets" and also know that it's a wealthy country.
And as far as not knowing brands like Toyota, Sony, Panasonic, etc., are not Japanese, that just doesn't happen around here. The most countrified, backwoods, uneducated person around here is bound to say something like "those Jap brands ain't no better than ours". It's not very nice, but they do know where they originated.
Everybody around here gets my husband to help them with anything electronic. Why? Because he's Japanese, of course. How's that for stereotyping?
Reminds me of the time I was talking to a couple of female Japanese friends about the American soldier(s) and the rape controversy(ies) in Okinawa. I was trying to ask their feelings on the matter, and I got a very shocking remark from one of them. I won't say what it was, but it really took me by surprise, and in a very bad way.Here's an interesting example to talk about: Today I was having lunch at a school I've been teaching at for 2 years. The teachers sitting next to me where having a discussion about the Bush regime and it's policies with North Korea. As they were speculating about the US government, I politely offered some comments on my perceptions. (In Japanese.) And, (I'm not joking) the response I got from the Kocho Sensei was "Do you have ka-re in America?"
(We were eating curry udon for lunch today....)
i carry your heart with me(i carry it in my heart)
I used to enjoy it too at teh beginning, but after one or two years it's getting tiring to be asked always exactly the same routine questions by 90% of the new people you meet. Rather than answering, I try to make them reflect a bit about the meaning of their question. For example, if someone ask me if "my country has four seasons like Japan", I reply one of the following :
- But I thought Japan had 5 seasons, with the tsyu (rainy season)
- But seasons aren't the same everywhere in Japan. Look Okinawa doesn't have seasons (or just wet and dry).
- Oh, my country has 6 seasons : cold & dry, cold & wet, cool & dry, cool & wet, warm & dry and warm & wet. What about Japan ?
- Which part of my country are you referring to ?
- Sometimes I feel that Japan doesn't really have seasons, as the sun sets as early as 6:30pm in summer and 5pm in winter, while in my country it sets at 10pm in summer and 4pm in winter (and doesn't rise before 8 or 9am in winter).
- Do you know any European country that doesn't have 4 seasons ?
I have experienced a few times that the same person asked me twice a dumb question a few weeks later. I usually don't forget what I was asked by some particular person, especially if it struck me as dumb, or on the contrary, intelligent.Afterwards, I'm sure they would not ask that question again of a foreigner as now they were enlightened.
Well, I hope it didn't take you 16 years to get use to that. Rather than saying how long I have been in Japan to explain that I can do these things, I say that I could already do them before coming to Japan, as most people can.I used to answer in Japanese, "Of course I can eat with chopsticks, eat sushi, sleep in a futon, cook my own rice, etc. etc. I've lived here for 16 years!" My polite answer to their "dumb" question kind of humbled some of them and I'm sure they felt awkward asking that question.
For the "can you eat this or that food" questions, I always return the question, and it appears that quite a few Japanese cannot eat either sushi (about 10%) or natto (about 50%). If they ask me about food (yes, I can eat sushi, uni, tofu and hijiki, but I don't like natto), I also ask them if they can eat frogs, snails, kangaroo, ostrich, venison, rabbit (oh, kawaisooo !), turkey, lamb, goat, crocodile or fried insects. I can eat all of them. I have asked about 30 Japanese about these, and usually they can't eat most or any of them. Who is laughing now ?
Well, this thread has generated some good, decent discussion which I enjoy very much. No one here is bashing Japan, there is just a difference of opinion as to why we feel Japanese are more hypocritical with foreigners. To continue going "Point-Counterpoint" would be just rehashing the same opinions.
I clicked on the link "Big Daikon" that Mad Pierrot (thank you Mad Pierrot) recently posted in another thread and came across a thesis by a Phd that seems to answer the question of why foreigners feel discriminated and not accepted in Japan regardless of their knowledge of the Japanese language and culture. This guy said much of what I was trying to say, but I was not as articulate as he. His theory, I think, is well founded. I am posting parts as a new thread to generate some discussion and that maybe more will read it. It's too bad that he never finished the book he was going to write as his site has been dead since May, 2002. I would've loved to read the rest of his thesis.
I thought that article had been written by Damon of Japan.box.sk (his site was quite successful but eventually shut down for some reasons). Either "Dan E. Vez" is a pseudonym (very likely actually), or he "borrowed" that article for his site (or was it somebody else who posted it ?).
i learned to use chopsticks at a chinese resturaunt when i was 10-11.
my japanese girlfriend was suprised that A) i had chopsticks at my house, with the rest of my cutlery, B) that i knew how to use them.
she did though try and show me the "proper" way to use them * i can only assume chinese hold chopsticks only slightly differently from japanese because i could use them quite easily and comfortably the way i know, but she was showing me a slightly different way*.
what i think is a good thing to point out is that my g/f was ussually more suprised about the fact japanese culture was so well integrated into british and western culture, when it appears japan knows very little of britain.
ive known how to say konnichiwa since i was 8, and ive known of japan vaguely since i was 8, ive been more aware of japan and its culture since i was 13-14, and ive been pretty well educated on the subject of japan since i was 16.
i agree, japan, or britain, you will find people who know little outside of their own country, in britain these are the majority of the working class, and just extremely mentally idle at school.
in japan its simply the fact that japan provides an enviroment, and personality for japanese, that they dont feel any major need to know, they dont seem to appriciate the idea of learning about themselves and everything beyond purely for the persute of knowledge like education in the west, i agree with the idea that they simply appriciate the simple pleasures in life.
with me ive always been good at geography, biology, keen on history, and learning everything i could get my hands on and assimilate fast enough, now im no genius, far from it, but ive always been very aware that there's a world beyond the borders of my country, and i couldnt conceive being the knid of person who wouldnt by nature, want to learn about it. i like to feel i have a wisdom.
my japanese girlfriend though, is at university, something i would be hard pressed to acheive in my country let alone japans education system, it obviously instills a work ethic of really working hard for what you want, but it seems to completely fail in igniting that LOVE of learning, that desire which makes a student WANT to come to school/college/uni just to descover something new.
in japan i get the impression its simply a part of the routine of life, something that must be done.
saying that i hope my comments havnt been to harsh or anything, i know that theres alot of japanese who genuinly look beyond the simple routine of their lives, and their country, i know this because my girlfriend is one of them, and i have read about many examples of japanese men and women who are looking outward because looknig inward isnt satisfying them.
i also get the impression its getting to the stage where more and more japanese are starting to take a genuine interest in the world outside of japan, but i must admit, stories of cold attitudes of some japanese and the phenomena of japanese only signs at shops and bussiness' is quite worrying, and suffice to say i will have to really think hard before i considor living in japan.
so thats my 2 cents in a long boring rant =)
jt: I was sitting here compiling an answer to the same quote and you seemed to have it said it better than I was attempting. Well said and I think you are quite correct. When I went to a doctor in Japan and said "onaka ga itai" (lit. My stomach hurts), for example, I was usually asked to explain more in depth and what exactly I was feeling and where it precisly was. When I went to the hospital to complain of a three day long headache, the doctors insisted that I precisly tell them exactly what I was feeling, where exactly the pain was, what type of pain it was, before they would give me a CAT scan. The dentist was the same way. He usually wanted to know all the details before he would even x-ray my teeth.
Welcome nurizeko, there is alot of info here. Keep reading. The phenomena of "Japanese Only" signs is indeed quite rare and found usually around the large US military bases or bars and such that don't want to allow people in with an alternate lifestyle, whether they be Japanese or foreigner. You will find a few threads here that show signs of refusal to people with tattoos, earrings, etc. and this holds for both Japanese and foreigner alike. No need to think hard about living in Japan because of this. Alot of what you will read on these threads is foreigners just venting their frustrations at some of the things people who live and work there actually experience. Alot of them, although they may be letting off some frustrational steam, so to speak, still enjoy living there or they wouldn't be there. It's what you make of it that's important
I appreciate you observation of how the Japanese people cultivate a high level of work ethic while failing to discover any joy in learning. I just have a couple of questions because I think your observations are quite relevant to the topic.Japan, as far as I know, has been doing the greatest amount of translation of written material from other languages. I've also heard that the recent movement to adopt English as the second (?) official language of Japan was at least partially due to the immense translation work required to keep up with all the overseas publications which has been steadily increasing. But isn't it strange, with all those translated books, that not too many people were reading any? Is there a strong divide between the highly motivated academics and those outside the research fields? If so, is there any way to explain this clear cut division?
The tendency that you find in the Japanese people are not unique; in fact those are the things that Koreans and the Chinese are constantly criticizing themselves with. Emphasis on rote memory as opposed to creativity, overly heated competiton for grades while neglecting the learning process, strong motivation for worldly success not equalled by a high level of understanding or ability to communicate. Yet isn't it again strange that the more industrialized and culturally advanced Japanese should do so much worse in common sense and knowledge than the otherwise relatively backward Koreans or Chinese?
Another factor that may have relevance is that while Korea and China had been turned upside down, inside out, by the struggle between the republicans and the communists, whereas Japan never had such a major struggle. When all opposition to the mainstream powers that be were crushed swiftly and effectively, any abberation from the accepted norm, that must have instilled a strong sense of fear, defeatism, or even fatalism that whatever they(the average citizen) do, it just can't be helped. Did you sense anything that might explain this mysterious lack of intellectual interest?
Last edited by lexico; Feb 11, 2005 at 20:55.
Z: The fish in the water are happy.
H: How do you know ? You're not fish.
Z: How do you know I don't ? You're not me.
H: True I am not you, and I cannot know. Likewise, I know you're not, therefore I know you don't.
Z: You asked me how I knew implying you knew I knew. In fact I saw some fish, strolling down by the Hao River, all jolly and gay.
--Zhuangzi
Yes, there are so many Chinese restaurants everywhere in Europe that it's hard not to have tried eating with chopsticks for an average European (except those who refuse categorically to try). That is partly why I am so offended that ALL the Japanese feel the need to ask or exclaim "oh you can use chopsticks!" when they see it done.
In my case, I have often praised for using my chopsticks in a very Japanese manner, which many Japanese (including my wife and mother-in-law) can't. I can't actually understand how so many Japanese (like 1/3 of those I have met and eaten with) can't use their chopsticks properly (and sometimes their fork and knive too, but only if you consider strict Western etiquette). What's difficult in holding two chopsticks ?she did though try and show me the "proper" way to use them * i can only assume chinese hold chopsticks only slightly differently from japanese because i could use them quite easily and comfortably the way i know, but she was showing me a slightly different way*.
Exactly. I feel that the average Europeans know much more about Japan(or that of other major countries) than the average Japanese about Europe. They don't even know we have 4 seasons in Europe and most couldn't name all European (even just EU) countries !what i think is a good thing to point out is that my g/f was ussually more suprised about the fact japanese culture was so well integrated into british and western culture, when it appears japan knows very little of britain.
Again, that's just how I see it. People who make very stupid remarks about some "distant country" are usually working class people. That is almot in the definition of working/lower class that they should be ignorant and uneducated (as classes do not depend so much on money as on education in the broader sense of the term). In the States, they call the lower classes "rednecks", but that's just another word for the same thing.i agree, japan, or britain, you will find people who know little outside of their own country, in britain these are the majority of the working class, and just extremely mentally idle at school.
That is exactly how I feel about it. That is why I created a thread called Is Japan an intellectual country ?in japan its simply the fact that japan provides an enviroment, and personality for japanese, that they dont feel any major need to know, they dont seem to appriciate the idea of learning about themselves and everything beyond purely for the persute of knowledge like education in the west, i agree with the idea that they simply appriciate the simple pleasures in life.
This is totally true. I have asked many Japanese about this (90% of my Japanese acquaintances are university graduates), and very very few people in Japan (was I told) choose what they study at university because they like it, but almost always in consideration of their future job. No, in fact, rather than the subject it is the university itself (the name value) that is important in Japan. Even studying history, as long as it is a famous university, the person will get a good job (also regardless of their results, as long as they graduate). I have rarely met Japanese people genuinely interested in learning things like history, geography, philosophy, sciences, politics, economy or languages just for the pleasure of learning, although this kind of people are quite common in Europe (again much less in the States and Australia from my experience). I have met so many Japanese who wanted to learn English, (or French or Italian...), but only a tiny fraction of them do it for a love for the language itself (generally those who speak the more fluently). As a teacher, when I ask new students why they want to learn English, they answer is typically "for business" or "to travel" or "tp talk to 'foreigners'" (no kidding, as if all foreigners spoke Englishmy japanese girlfriend though, is at university, something i would be hard pressed to acheive in my country let alone japans education system, it obviously instills a work ethic of really working hard for what you want, but it seems to completely fail in igniting that LOVE of learning, that desire which makes a student WANT to come to school/college/uni just to descover something new.
in japan i get the impression its simply a part of the routine of life, something that must be done.). So that is always in view of something practical , very rarely due to a thirst for knowledge or the love of the language itself. I have learnt 7 languages (without counting dozens which I just overviewed a bit), but it was never because I needed to for a practical reason. It was always for myself, and because of my thirst for knowledge. It's very difficult to keep one's motivation to learn otherwise, and I guess that is why the Japanese (and Americans and Australians) have seem to have so much harder learning foreign languages than Europeans.
Last edited by Maciamo; Feb 11, 2005 at 14:48.
Hasn't happened to me once yet. Either the Japanese who I meet are different to the ones you meet, or .......
Or you ask a fork and a knife when you eat out.
"The solution I have found to the "being treated like a retarded" situations is to make them feel as if they are the one to have asked an utterly stupid question, so as to culpabilize them on their ignorance and hope they don't reiterate (even with someone else) later."
I'd like to do that. xD But can a woman do this without being judged as "difficult" and "overbearing"?
Oh, I'm just going to cross my fingers and hope I can find the more non-conformist Japanese out there. There have to heaps of them, somewhere.
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