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  1. #1
    JREF Resident Alien Pachipro's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Perosnally I did not feel irritated by all the things mentioned above until my 3rd year in Japan. You can't "make peace with it" if you haven't come into conflict with it first. And small things like the ones I mentioned are not things that would normally annoy me, if they happened just a few times a year. It is the frequency and accumulation over the years, combined with an increasing realisation that a majority of the people in that country behave like that, that lead to frustration and irritation...
    The 3rd year you mentioned is critical in that many "frustrated gaijin" leave during that year as they are completely "fed up" so to speak. And there are some that become frustrated quicker. However, those that stay beyond that time to the 4th, 5th, or longer years usually make peace with it and accept it for what it is.

    Believe you me, I went through the same frustration so I know exactly what you have experienced. As I've mentioned previously, the majority of foreigners have a love-hate relationship with Japan with very, very few being completely at ease and comfort with living and working in Japan. While on the other extreme, there are very, very few who completely love living there and have no complaints whatsoever. For the vast majority of us, we struggle with it until we either accept it for what it is or we leave.

    Once I accepted Japan and the culture for what it is and stopped trying to change it to suit my needs, it became more comfortable and enjoyable living there. And, as with where I am living now, I still had my irritations and gripes (as I probably would have anywhere I lived in the world), but, as I do here in Tennessee (which is a fine place to live btw), I accept them and go on with life. I make the best of it.

    I guess I could have had a (slightly) more positive experience, had I lived in another area (with less conservative, elderly people), had another job (with less chances to be asked personal questions than as a one-to-one conversation teacher !). It would not have changed the way Japanese people are, but it could have made it more bearable by not hearing the same stereotypical comments and being asked the same questions almost everyday. But it was too late to change. I have reached a stage where just hearing a Japanese talk about the seasons, chopsticks or fireworks make me on the defensive, and being asked about them drives me crazy. When you have had an overdose of something, be it food, alcohol, music or some kind of people, you just can't have it anymore, even if you used to like it.
    I don't really think it would have changed your perceptions of Japan and the Japanese people and culture. Each person has his/her own experience and feelings regardless of where they live in the country.

    However, I still commend you for learning the language so fast and at least attempting to understand the culture. Many foreigners do not even do a tenth of what you have done while living there, but complain none the less.

    At least you have something to back you up. If someone says to to you, "Oh yeah? Did you learn to speak and read and write the language?" You can reply, "Yes, I did." If they say, "Oh yeah? Did you learn about their history and culture"? You can reply, "Yes, I did." Very few can answer in the affirmative.

    Let me ask you one question: How would you feel if a Japanese person came to Belgium, became fluent in the language, history, and culture, and tried to change Belgium to suit his needs as a Japanese feels other countries should be based on his thinking? What if he incessently complained about how Belgiens (sp) do not sit on the floor, or bathe regularly in an ofuro, or eat rice regularly or anything for that matter that is so foreign to Belgiens and not their culture? Would you not think he/she was out of place in trying to change Belgium's customs, politics, education, etc?

    I would. I think the same is true in Japan and of the Japanese. That is what makes this world so unique and wonderful. If everything was the same no matter where I went in the world, what fun would that be? For lack of a better example, if there were McDonalds and such, and the same US food all over the world, what fun would that be? I would never be allowed to sample a different countries food as there would be no difference throughout the world when it came to food.

    But I still smile to myself at how frustrated you must have been and how annoyed it made you over 3+ years as I have seen it many times and experienced it myself. IMO, for what it is worth, Japan may have been a good experience for you, and another notch on your belt, so to speak, in your travels around the world. But it is not the place you were destined to live for any length of time in. Too bad. As many foreigners have tried, including a few famous tarento, to get Japan to change, but all have failed. I was sort of hoping you would be the one to do it.
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  2. #2
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Pachipro
    Let me ask you one question: How would you feel if a Japanese person came to Belgium, became fluent in the language, history, and culture, and tried to change Belgium to suit his needs as a Japanese feels other countries should be based on his thinking? What if he incessently complained about how Belgiens (sp) do not sit on the floor, or bathe regularly in an ofuro, or eat rice regularly or anything for that matter that is so foreign to Belgiens and not their culture? Would you not think he/she was out of place in trying to change Belgium's customs, politics, education, etc?
    I wouldn't mind hearin advice on improving the political or education system, as I don't know one place on earth where it is sufficiently good for me (although some are clearly better than others).

    But I have never complained about Japanese customs, such as sitting on the floor, using chopsticks, Japanese-style baths, slurping noodles, bowing to greet people, etc. These are things I got used to, or if I didn't practice them (e.g. sitting in seiza everyday, because I have long legs), the fact that they existed and people practised them around me never bothered me anyway.

    What bothered me are things that bother people in any culture, and whatever their own culture, I believe. They depend more on how thick/thin-skinned or sensitive one is, than where they are from. This is to say : discrimination (culture does NOT excuse it), prejudices based on ignorance (ditto), and the lack of acceptance by the Japanese, of people like me who try to integrate, learn about the culture, language, and have become permanent resident in their country. This does not make me feel welcome, as I never felt rewarded for having tried so hard to integrate, except by my wife and a few more open-minded friends/students.

    That was not enough for me. I know I am exigent, but that is how I am. I try to adapt. They won't recognise it, and there is no chance of it changing nationwide. Why should I stay any longer, feel frustration by the lack of recogniton, being treated like a short-term visitor by people who know I am a permanent resident, or having people answering me with gestures or strange (visibly suspicious or displeased) faces when I address them in their language ?

    I think I would not have encountered these problems if I just talked English to everybody, insulted them if they didn't speak English, never behaved like a Japanese, not stop when the cops wanted to check my bike, didn't bother to sort my waste, spoke louder than everybody, pushed people to get off the train, and didn't get married but just enjoyed my time in Shibuya, etc. There are many "gaijin" like that (this is my image of the "gaijin" by the way, the one the Japanese gave me, which is why I disliked being called that way), and they never complain half as much as I do. Why should they ? They have nothing to worry about... They behave like in occupied land. Unfortunately, I believe that it is people like this who are in part responsible for giving me a hard time by making the Japanese think that Westerners are normally like that (no wonder so many of them are afraid to travel to Western countries and they vote for Ishihara !)

    I would. I think the same is true in Japan and of the Japanese. That is what makes this world so unique and wonderful. If everything was the same no matter where I went in the world, what fun would that be? For lack of a better example, if there were McDonalds and such, and the same US food all over the world, what fun would that be?
    Why are you telling me that ? I am quite disappointed that you should think that I prefer McDonald, or would like "my country's food" rather than Japanese food in Japan. I am also disappointed that you should think that I try to change Japanese culture and customs like the ones you cited above (o-furo, sit on the floor...). Where did you get the idea that I dislike that ? If there wasn't that "exotism" or these positive aspects of Japan (Japanese food, politeness, etc.) , I would have left after a month !

    So please do not confuse me for some narrow-minded loser that expect Japan to be the same as at home, expect Japanese people to speak English everywhere and eat their country's food because they can't enjoy something they aren't used to !

    As many foreigners have tried, including a few famous tarento, to get Japan to change, but all have failed. I was sort of hoping you would be the one to do it.
    I doubt that they were complaining about the same things as I did. The things I complain about are that the education system make Japanese people completely deprived of critical sense and blindly believe everything they hear on TV, which in turn makes them have prejudices against anything not Japanese, and don't bother to think for a fraction of second before asking the same stereotypical questions when they should know the answer by themselves. Some more open-minded and more critical Japanese (and I have met very few of them), agree with me on that. I am not trying to make Japan more like "my country", but just better for everyone, especially for the Japanese. In fact, most of the people I discussed with about this issue had no opinion at all. They politely agreed, but I wonder if they even understood what I was talking about. There is at least one educated person I met who raised the issue before I even mentioned it, which encouraged me into believing that people who did have an opinion agreed with me. The whole issue is justly to make people think more by themselves, and create their own opinions. It's only natural then, that I shouldn't hear many opinions coming from the Japanese.

    All my problems in Japan come from that lack of critical thinking :
    - misconceptions and prejudices (i.e. false preconceive ideas not based on reason or experience, but on hearsays and stereotypes).
    - discrimination (because of a lack of distinction between the various kinds of foreigners, ultimately caused by ignorance and especially the lack of critical thinking)
    - unwillingness to accept foreigners as part of Japanese society (because of deep-rooted prejudices)
    - stupid/naive questions (which wouldn't happen without the misconceptions)

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  3. #3
    Junior Member DoctorP's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    What bothered me are things that bother people in any culture, and whatever their own culture, I believe. They depend more on how thick/thin-skinned or sensitive one is, than where they are from. This is to say : discrimination (culture does NOT excuse it), prejudices based on ignorance (ditto), and the lack of acceptance by the Japanese, of people like me who try to integrate, learn about the culture, language, and have become permanent resident in their country. This does not make me feel welcome, as I never felt rewarded for having tried so hard to integrate, except by my wife and a few more open-minded friends/students.

    That was not enough for me. I know I am exigent, but that is how I am. I try to adapt. They won't recognise it, and there is no chance of it changing nationwide. Why should I stay any longer, feel frustration by the lack of recogniton, being treated like a short-term visitor by people who know I am a permanent resident, or having people answering me with gestures or strange (visibly suspicious or displeased) faces when I address them in their language ?

    Maybe you should just move back here and walk around with a sign around your neck that says "Hey stupid...I speak/understand Japanese!" . Maybe that will correct part of the problem that you seem to encounter.

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