Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

[DoctorP]

Give me a break. Who doesn't know a word like "buchou" after 4 years of working in Japan ? Then, even if they were surprised, no need to make such a scene about it. Just shut up and keep your astonishment for you.

I must say that I am surprised. This is the very first sign of emotion (to my knowledge) that you have ever shown! You are human afterall!

While I agree with most of what you say, I just think that you let it get to you too much. Meaning that you take it too personal...as an attack on you or something to that effect. I quite often battle with my friends and employees. They quite often want to speak to me in broken English, and as you mentioned before I will finish their sentences for them. (usually because I get frustrated waiting for them to think of the correct word) Only about 3 of my 50 employees have figured out that it is easier to speak Japanese to me, than it is to try to use English.

[Maciamo]

While I agree with most of what you say, I just think that you let it get to you too much. Meaning that you take it too personal...as an attack on you or something to that effect.

I am someone who likes to analyse things, and reflect about what people say and how they behave. Not everyone is like me (few people are, I think), but one cannot change personality or sensitivity just like that because it would make life in Japan easier.

Only about 3 of my 50 employees have figured out that it is easier to speak Japanese to me, than it is to try to use English.

Don't you find this amazing ? It may be difficult for native English speakers to imagine what foreign language to speak to a foreigner. But I have grown up in several non-English speaking countries, and never did anyone try by default to speak English with someone, even if they knew for sure they were foreigners. It's something the Japanese do, and I cannot understand why in my or your case, it takes them so long to understand that just speaking normally in their mother tongue is the easiest way to communicate. It's usually fairly evident after a few seconds of conversation between 2 people which language works best. Maybe that's again the lack of critical sense. They can't judge things like that by themselves (well, some do, but as you said they are exceptions).

[Mikawa Ossan]

Technically it is wrong (because illogical), but the Japanese do use it that way. The Japanese are not people who usually care very much about definitions. The 'feeling' is more important.

Well all I can say is, the (Japanese) people I've explained it to all got it the first time. They really started to think about it, too.

I disagree with you here. If we consider that one of the meanings for 国 is "our country," that is, "Japan," then everyone else is a 外国人 no matter where a Japanese person is. Another example of this is 国語. One of its meanings is "Japanese." If we consider just 外人, then it seems that they think of it as meaning "people outside of our circle," i.e. non-Japanese, i.e. the rest of the world. That doesn't seem to defy the meanings of the parts of the words to me.

Let me illustrate more specifically how I expain the concept of foreigness to Japanese, many of whom have never given the issue a single thought. I find that lack of thought to be a blessing in a way. But I digress.

Let's take the term 国語. Anyone worth his salt knows that 国語 and 日本語 are not the same thing. 国語, in its most basic meaning, is the native language of a given country. Or more accurately, [その国において公的なものとされている言語。　その国 の公用語。自国の言語。] (Quote from 広辞苑、5th ed.) When a Japanese says 国語, they are referring to 自国の言語, or the language of one's own country. Namely, Japanese. They would most likely not ever think of using it in terms of any other language. But we foreigners can do so quite easily, as long as you qualify it by stating something like, 「私の国の国語」, when referring to your own language in the same sense that Japanese generally do when they speak of Japanese 国語. To be more specific, the subject at school. (For my purposes here, before university, but I can make the case for University as well. It's just longer.)

Just as Japanese do not learn 日本語 , but rather 国語 at school, people where I grew up did not learn English (in the sense that English is taught in say Japan), but rather 国語. In this sense, it's American 国語 or American English. Since Japanese lump the Japanese grammar, vocabulary, kanji, and literature that they learned at school into the term 国語, I do the same for the English grammar, vocabulary, spelling, and literature that I learned at school.

I don't know whether I conveyed what I wanted to say clearly or not, but every single I put the concept of 国語 in these terms in Japanese, every single person understood what I meant the first time around.

So you see, Japanese people can understand the relativity of the term 国語; it's just a matter that they never have to in their daily lives. Still, it's one of those concepts that makes perfect sense once one has been told correctly.

The same holds true for 外人. I can go in more depth if anyone has a desire, but 国語 took more space than I thought it would. It's essentially the same concept, though.

I am someone who likes to analyse things, and reflect about what people say and how they behave. Not everyone is like me (few people are, I think), but one cannot change personality or sensitivity just like that because it would make life in Japan easier.

There is nothing wrong with that, but there IS such a thing as over-analyzing something. Even the master himself said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." (I'm referring of course to Sigmund Freud.) I ask that you keep this in mind as you make your analysis.

It seems to me that sometimes you cause yourself problems by analyzing things that don't necessarily need to be. It's easy to become hyper-sensitive to foreigner issues when one lives in Japan as a foreigner.

[studyonline]

Let's take the term 国語. Anyone worth his salt knows that 国語 and 日本語 are not the same thing. 国語, in its most basic meaning, is the native language of a given country. Or more accurately, [その国において公的なものとされている言語。　その国 の公用語。自国の言語。] (Quote from 広辞苑、5th ed.) When a Japanese says 国語, they are referring to 自国の言語, or the language of one's own country.

Hi there ya'll serious and smart people. Mikawa さん is right. We use 国語 for the academic subject in schools. When we say, "日本語", we refere to the language of Japan. Difference? While both are Japanese in English, there is a slight difference between them.

We usually acknowledge 日本語 for foreigners to learn the language. And we say 国語 for a purpose of education. It is true depending on the level of your study Japanese, your 日本語 can be as high level as 国語. But for Japanese, we don't say that we study 日本語 because we speak it and live with it.

While the elementary level of 国語 is very similar to 日本語 in terms of the difficulty as the kids in those ages just start to learn it, 国語 really starts to kick in with its real meaning at 5th-6th grade level.

自国の言語 is a good expression for 国語. I must say the depth of the language is pretty deep. Sometimes that depth can be so intimidating and make people confused. 曖昧な表現　is not just because of the nature of the language. Another reason for that is the depth of it.

Have you noticed that there are kinds of arts in Japan? Even for drinking tea.
Both Chinese and Japanese people like things to be arts. We like to appriciate what we do. And that spirit is actually seen in 国語. Once you learn 日本語 and very good at it, try 国語 or 国文学. I find Japanese is very good at expressing 微妙で繊細　things.

[Maciamo]

Have you noticed that there are kinds of arts in Japan? Even for drinking tea.
Both Chinese and Japanese people like things to be arts. We like to appriciate what we do.

Are you implying that Western cultures do not have similar arts ? Maybe that is because you live in the US where everything is so straightforward and factual. Just look at the rules for drinking tea in the UK. They are probably as strict as the Japanese tea ceremony (and stricter than the Chinese one). Young generations tend to lose this, but there are many 'artistic' rules just to hold one's fork and knife, how to place the cover on the table, how to hold a glass of wine properly, look at it properly, smel it properly and drink it properly... It's usually not call "art" but "sciences" although it is almost exactly the same. Ikebana has an equivalent in several European countries (e.g. Austrians call it "Gebinde"). In fact, I know quite a few Japanese who are learning European-style flower arrangement (or floristry). As for 書道 (shodou), there is also "calligraphy" in Europe.

What's more, most of the so-called "Japanese arts" are actually Chinese at the origin, from 書道 to 武士道. Even garden landscaping in Japan was typically copied directly on China. So I find it strange that I've heard so many Japanese pride themselves (like you just did) on their "Japanese arts", when most of it is a variant on the original Chinese art. Even origami, fireworks, rice paper, or arched bridges are all of Chinese origin. This may shock the Japanese pride, but even 花見 (hanami, "blossom viewing") is originally from China. Ume (plum), sakura (cherry) and momo (peach), which are often described by the Japanese are typically Japanese trees (sakura is even the national symbol) were all trees indigenous to China that were imported to Japan.

Sorry, my aim was not to offend you, but just to show you that it is all too common for Japanese people to think that their country and culture is unique, when in fact the "typically Japanese things" have equivalents, or even their origins, in other countries. This tends to get on my nerves, as for many Japanese the Western world lacks the "refinement and sensibility" of Japanese culture, just because they take the US as a model and forget about true Western culture in Europe. It's quite incredible how self-aware the Japanese can be, but how ignorant they are of the rest of the world. The main difference between Europe and Japan is that the Japanese make a lot of fuss about the few things that they define as Japanese, while most Europeans cannot even tell a fraction of their country's traditional culture or arts because they don't care.

[studyonline]

Are you implying that Western cultures do not have similar arts ? Maybe that is because you live in the US where everything is so straightforward and factual.

No. Not implying. And your guess for my choice in living in the U.S. is wrong, too. I never gave you my reason of the choice.

Even garden landscaping in Japan was typically copied directly on China. So I find it strange that I've heard so many Japanese pride themselves (like you just did) on their "Japanese arts", when most of it is a variant on the original Chinese art.

If I was so prideful, I would never mention China.

Sorry, my aim was not to offend you, but just to show you that it is all too common for Japanese people to think that their country and culture is unique, when in fact the "typically Japanese things" have equivalents, or even their origins, in other countries. This tends to get on my nerves, as for many Japanese the Western world lacks the "refinement and sensibility" of Japanese culture, just because they take the US as a model and forget about true Western culture in Europe. It's quite incredible how self-aware the Japanese can be, but how ignorant they are of the rest of the world.

It does not offend me at all, don't worry. Again, if I really thought all those arts are unique, I would never mention China and Chinese culture.

The main difference between Europe and Japan is that the Japanese make a lot of fuss about the few things that they define as Japanese, while most Europeans cannot even tell a fraction of their country's traditional culture or arts because they don't care.

If they don't care, then how can they even understand the spirit of arts? 「心技一体」　or 「精神統一」　are often quoted 四字熟語 for the spirit of martial arts as well as other Japanese arts. People in China and Japanese do work hard when they are serious. 一生懸命 spirit is not something you can take lightly. I do not think or mock other cultures, but I just simply said that that was way of life in Japanese culture (or used to be). By the way, in case you didn't know I am half Chinese (Taiwanese). Your guessing that I was neglecting of the knowledge on Chinese culture is wrong.

[Maciamo]

Well all I can say is, the (Japanese) people I've explained it to all got it the first time. They really started to think about it, too.

In my experience, when I explained the logic of "gaikokujin" being relative to the country where one is, the Japanese understand what I mean, and even agree in principle. I am not saying that the Japanese cannot understand logic, I am saying that they prefer not to be logical by choice. This is the exact opposite of French speakers. For a French person, it's sometimes more important to be logical and cartesian than to be practical or just agree with others for the sake of communication. I am of course influenced by this mentality, although I try not to overdo it as some French people would (even if Silverpoint can't believe that there is worse than me on this).

Let me illustrate more specifically how I expain the concept of foreigness to Japanese, many of whom have never given the issue a single thought. I find that lack of thought to be a blessing in a way. But I digress.

That's also what I mean when I say they choose not to be logical. They don't waste time pondering over a definition. It can indeed be a blessing, but when discussing cultural differences with non-Japanese (like we are doing), it can lead to confusion.

I think that the misconceptions I was complaining about above are mostly due to a similar lack of reflection. For example, they know that countries like France or the UK have 4 seasons (and of course, Belgium too, as it's about in between the two), but they ask about it anyway because they never gave it a good thought or tried to answered that themselves. I am sure that they don't want to confirm what they were taught and actually know the answer, because I have been asked this question by people who have been many times to Western Europe, and I asked them what kind of weather they had. Then they realised by themselves that indeed there were seasons there too, without my having to tell them.

What I find most interesting is that so many Japanese ask this question (rarely when first meeting someone, though. Usually when the discussion leads to it, the cherry blossom and koyo seasons being the most propitious times). Why ask it if they could answer it by themselves ? Because they usually never tried to answer it by themselves. Why ? Because of the education system that does teach them to wonder and answer questions by themselves. They are taught to memorise and do like everyone else. They are not taught critical thinking and doubting what people say. In other words, if somebody doesn't give them the answer, they won't try to find it by themselves. I find this cultural specificity of utmost interest, but sometimes quite annoying (because my education taught to think the exact opposite way and even distrust information that my mind could not confirm on its own).

Let's take the term 国語. Anyone worth his salt knows that 国語 and 日本語 are not the same thing. 国語, in its most basic meaning, is the native language of a given country. Or more accurately, [その国において公的なものとされている言語。　その国 の公用語。自国の言語。] (Quote from 広辞苑、5th ed.) When a Japanese says 国語, they are referring to 自国の言語, or the language of one's own country. Namely, Japanese.

I agree with that. I noticed that the Chinese also use 国語 to mean Chinese.
When talking about my schooling in my country (in Japanese), I used the word 国語 to refer to my mother-tongue's classes, and they never assumed that it meant Japanese.

So you see, Japanese people can understand the relativity of the term 国語; it's just a matter that they never have to in their daily lives.

Yes. Again, they 'can' understand the relativity of the term. But if you ask them directly whether the word could mean another language than Japanese or not, most have never given a good thought. It's not useful for them to wonder about that in their daily life, so they don't do it (contrarily to us who discuss it eventhough it is not "useful", just interesting or mentally stimulating ).

There is nothing wrong with that, but there IS such a thing as over-analyzing something. Even the master himself said, "Sometimes a cigar is just a cigar." (I'm referring of course to Sigmund Freud.) I ask that you keep this in mind as you make your analysis.

There are hundreds of ideas that have crossed my mind and that never expressed on the forum because it was too far-fetched or over-analysed. I already try to moderate myself. Some people have a low tolerance to in-depth analysis (like Silverpoint), others a bit more, and others crave for it. I also love analysing, comparing and interpretating statistics, but I am aware that no everybody does.

It's easy to become hyper-sensitive to foreigner issues when one lives in Japan as a foreigner.

That is true. Repetition of small things with little consequence can get on one's nerves seriously in the long term.

[Mikawa Ossan]

In my experience, when I explained the logic of "gaikokujin" being relative to the country where one is, the Japanese understand what I mean, and even agree in principle. I am not saying that the Japanese cannot understand logic, I am saying that they prefer not to be logical by choice.

That's also what I mean when I say they choose not to be logical. They don't waste time pondering over a definition.

All we can do is plant the seed.

It can indeed be a blessing, but when discussing cultural differences with non-Japanese (like we are doing), it can lead to confusion.

I agree. That's why word choice is so important.

What I find most interesting is that so many Japanese ask this question (rarely when first meeting someone, though. Usually when the discussion leads to it, the cherry blossom and koyo seasons being the most propitious times).

I wish one could type intonations...I usually reply 当然� りますよ in the same way I imagine a typical Japanese would respond to the same question. I rarely get asked that, though. I WAS recently asked if we do 月見 in America. I responded in the negative.

Yes. Again, they 'can' understand the relativity of the term. But if you ask them directly whether the word could mean another language than Japanese or not, most have never given a good thought. It's not useful for them to wonder about that in their daily life, so they don't do it (contrarily to us who discuss it eventhough it is not "useful", just interesting or mentally stimulating ).

Once again, all we can do is plant the seed.

That is true. Repetition of small things with little consequence can get on one's nerves seriously in the long term.

That's why it's so important to be able to shield yourself from them.

[Maciamo]

I WAS recently asked if we do 月見 in America. I responded in the negative.

I think that the Neo-pagans do. In the UK, the Neo-pagans go to ancient sites like Stonehenge and make rituals worshipping the sun and the moon at the solstices and equinoxes. It's very similar to tsukimi, which by the way is also of Chinese origin.

I found a new game. I thought it might be amusing to quiz the Japanese about their own culture and ask them whether each "item" in the list is truly Japanese or comes from China (see above post).

[pipokun]

I think that the Neo-pagans do. In the UK, the Neo-pagans go to ancient sites like Stonehenge and make rituals worshipping the sun and the moon at the solstices and equinoxes. It's very similar to tsukimi, which by the way is also of Chinese origin.

I found a new game. I thought it might be amusing to quiz the Japanese about their own culture and ask them whether each "item" in the list is truly Japanese or comes from China (see above post).

Sounds interesting game!
But I'm afraid the result would show what kind of friends/people you usually talk to...

[Elizabeth]

I am someone who likes to analyse things, and reflect about what people say and how they behave. Not everyone is like me (few people are, I think), but one cannot change personality or sensitivity just like that because it would make life in Japan easier.



Don't you find this amazing ? It may be difficult for native English speakers to imagine what foreign language to speak to a foreigner. But I have grown up in several non-English speaking countries, and never did anyone try by default to speak English with someone, even if they knew for sure they were foreigners. It's something the Japanese do, and I cannot understand why in my or your case, it takes them so long to understand that just speaking normally in their mother tongue is the easiest way to communicate. It's usually fairly evident after a few seconds of conversation between 2 people which language works best. Maybe that's again the lack of critical sense. They can't judge things like that by themselves (well, some do, but as you said they are exceptions).

My experience has been certainly that the vast majority of Japanese will prefer their native language but for those parts I have difficulty with, instead of speaking more slowly or trying a simpler explanation they immediately revert to English. When I reply in Japanese and they get it, they will revert back. It's almost as logical as asking a station master an involved series of questions on the line I need to take with all the transfers and having them respond by typing in the platform number on their calculator. It could be a lack of critical thinking or simply a misguided understanding of how to avoid embarrassing a foreigner.