Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

[Glenn]

When I went on a sightseeing tour in Shanghai with a Japanese group, I couldn't help noticing that eventhough they were in China, they called the Chinese gaijin. I have heard Japanese in Europe refer to locals as 'gaijin'. So the term does not change in function of the environment. Logically, the 'outsiders' or 'foreigners' are those who do not live in the country. But it is so deeply rooted in the Japanese mind, that where ever on earth, anyone that isn't or does not look Japanese is always a 'gaijin'. I asked my wife : "Aren't we the gaijin here in China ?", but she wasn't too sure. Although it sounded logical, she understood why other Japanese referered to locals as 'gaijin'. That is one of the thing that make me believe that the Japanese are not linguistically logical people.

I disagree with you here. If we consider that one of the meanings for 国 is "our country," that is, "Japan," then everyone else is a 外国人 no matter where a Japanese person is. Another example of this is 国語. One of its meanings is "Japanese." If we consider just 外人, then it seems that they think of it as meaning "people outside of our circle," i.e. non-Japanese, i.e. the rest of the world. That doesn't seem to defy the meanings of the parts of the words to me.

There was an incident that seems to confirm this thought process to me. It occured about two weeks ago. A few people from one of my classes and I were talking to a Japanese girl, and when she found out that one of my classmates was half-Japanese (his mother is Japanese), she said to him お母さんによろしく伝えてください. Upon hearing this, I asked, "do you know his mom?" She said no, but Japanese people have a collective mentality about themselves where they see themselves as a unit, so this wasn't strange to her at all, as it probably wasn't to my classmate's mother, either. I found it very odd, though, and can't imagine someone coming up to me and saying that someone said "hi," just because we are both white or American. I relay this story to show why I believe there is a bit of logic involved in using 外人 for anyone not Japanese.

In my experience, the Japanese have little notion of relativity. For example, if someone calls me, a Westerner would reply "I am coming" (coming toward you) in any of the European languages I know. But the Japanese never use this relative meaning of "come" and would say "go" (ikimasu !). There are many more examples if one analyse the language carefully. French language may be even more relative than English in this case, as we can also say 'J'arrive' ("I am arriving") in addition to 'Je viens' ("I am coming"). So, it's not only a relativity in space but also in time ('arrive' implies that the person will be arriving in front of the other person in a very short time).

I disagree with this as well, because it's a matter of perspective. Japanese people talk about where they are at the time, not where the other person is. Really, it's more logical. I can't "come" somewhere that I'm not, anymore than I can "go" somewhere that I am.

[Silverpoint]

I found it very odd, though, and can't imagine someone coming up to me and saying that someone said "hi," just because we are both white or American.

I like the reasoning in your post and agree with a number of points you make. My only real disagreement would be with the above quote.

I sometimes find when walking down the street that a fellow gaijin (by which in this example I mean white foreigner, who I don't know) coming the other way will give a little nod of recognition as they walk past, which is exactly the "we are both white [guys in Japan]" that you mentioned above. Interestingly there are also those that clearly don't want to associate with the other foreigner and will go out of their way to avoid eye-contact with you. Although you could argue that this in itself is another form of recognition that we are of the same group.

To extend this further (the one-step removed family member example you quoted) my wife actually came home a few weeks ago with a can of baked beans which was given to her in a bar by an English guy she met, who thought I might appreciate them simply because I'm a fellow Brit. He had recently been home and picked up some food. Why he happened to be carrying it at the time I don't know, but I do know that despite not knowing me, or ever having met me, he still felt able to make such a gesture.

However, I would accept that in my experience, this bond or identity as being part of a group is perhaps not as strong as between 2 Japanese.

[Glenn]

I like the reasoning in your post and agree with a number of points you make. My only real disagreement would be with the above quote.

I sometimes find when walking down the street that a fellow gaijin (by which in this example I mean white foreigner, who I don't know) coming the other way will give a little nod of recognition as they walk past, which is exactly the "we are both white [guys in Japan]" that you mentioned above. Interestingly there are also those that clearly don't want to associate with the other foreigner and will go out of their way to avoid eye-contact with you. Although you could argue that this in itself is another form of recognition that we are of the same group.

To extend this further (the one-step removed family member example you quoted) my wife actually came home a few weeks ago with a can of baked beans which was given to her in a bar by an English guy she met, who thought I might appreciate them simply because I'm a fellow Brit. He had recently been home and picked up some food. Why he happened to be carrying it at the time I don't know, but I do know that despite not knowing me, or ever having met me, he still felt able to make such a gesture.

Your second example is certainly closer to mine than your first one. I was talking about a third person involved in the process, not just between two people, as you pointed out. I can see it between two people when they directly have contact with each other, but it really struck me as odd to just say "give your mother my regards" without ever having met her. Even your example seems more acceptable to me, maybe because it's more of someone giving a sense of home to someone else than just giving a "what's up?" of sorts. Although, your example does strike me as a bit odd as well. Maybe it's just me and the type of persone I am.