Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

[Glenn]

Hello, again! I'm getting to really like Glenn!

Why thank you. You're not so bad yourself.

Actually, I was referring to the fact that Japanese people in general don't seem to think about what foreigness is in the abstract sense. At this particular point in time, I was not intending to limit this idea to the concrete word 外人. Notice that I was not making a value judgement and I did not exclude non-Japanese specifically. This is off-topic, but I personally that most people have never thought about the abstract concept of foreigness because for the vast majority of people, it's just not pertinent.

I know you weren't making a value judgement. Remember my first post? My whole argument was that for a Japanese person to consider people who aren't Japanese to be 外人 isn't a sign of illogic, but of a different perspective. I then attempted to show in my last post that we English speakers also have this problem of perspective, where we don't consider foreigners to be foreign just because we're in their country, when location doesn't really matter at all as far as the definition given by Merriam-Webster's is concerned. That is, ours is just a different way of looking at the picture; it doesn't mean that it's the right or the only way.

Also the point that most people don't think about the abstract concept of foreigness because it's not pertinent is even more of a reason that the conclusion that Japanese people are linguistically illogical is incorrect, and that was my whole point from the outset.

We acrtually disagree much less than you might think.

I actually didn't think we disagreed all that much in the first place. I was mostly using what you said to show that it basically proved my point. I know it came off as looking like I was arguing against you, though.

But this is not just confined to the utterence of the word by Japanese people, but also should they hear it uttered by a non-Japanese to refer to the native language of said non-Japanese utterer.

I say this because in every case when I have said 国語 without specific context, the Japanese person I'm talking to has instantly assumed that I'm talking about Japanese 国語 without exception. For example, 「学生のころできるだけ国語の授業を避けたんだよね」 . The response I would almost inevitably receive is something like, "What are you talking about? You don't learn kokugo in America!" (What do you think is meant here? Japanese 国語 of course.)

And that's the confirmation of this assumption:

I can see that, because you are obviously not Japanese, and there was most likely lexical context (alongside the visual and historical context) that showed you weren't talking about Japanese. But I get the feeling that when you say 国語 to refer to your 母国語, the Japanese think of it as 外国語 (or maybe your 母国語, but either way not as 国語 as they think of it). When you used the word I'd guess they were taken aback at first, and then figured that you weren't talking about Japanese, unless you set it up as such. If you haven't already, ask them about that. I'd be curious to know whether I'm close on this one.

So basically I think that the occurence of a Japanese person using 国語 to mean something other than Japanese, although not nonexistant, happens so infrequently that it approaches zero.

This goes to show that it's inherent for Japanese people to think of themselves as an "in group" and everyone else as an "out group," which would mean that it does not logically follow that location changes the state of someone's "gaijinness." That is, they think of themselves as 国人 and everyone else is 外国人, and that doesn't violate any logic. That was the point I was trying to make in the first place. It was a direct response to this statement:

I have heard Japanese in Europe refer to locals as 'gaijin'. So the term does not change in function of the environment. Logically, the 'outsiders' or 'foreigners' are those who do not live in the country. But it is so deeply rooted in the Japanese mind, that where ever on earth, anyone that isn't or does not look Japanese is always a 'gaijin'. I asked my wife : "Aren't we the gaijin here in China ?", but she wasn't too sure. Although it sounded logical, she understood why other Japanese referered to locals as 'gaijin'. That is one of the thing that make me believe that the Japanese are not linguistically logical people.

My argument is that the Japanese being linguistically illogical people does not follow from the term 外人 not changing function due to environment.

However, I did this because so many people, non-Japanese included, seem to use the gaijin moniker exclusively for non-Japanese people. It's as if Japanese people can NEVER be 外人 or 外国人. Or, put in the reverse, a non-Japanese is ALWAYS a 外人 or 外国人. Regardless of circumstances or point of view. I disagree with these premises. That is the heart of what I'm really trying to say.

So we've been arguing about two different things. Your argument: 外人 can mean someone who is an alien, and not just non-Japanese. My argument: Japanese people using 外人 to refer to non-Japanese does not mean that they are linguistically illogical people.

Also note that we have agreed through seeming disagreement that the term is relative, but that mostly it's used to refer to non-Japanese, just as 国語 is mostly used to refer to the Japanese language (and literature). I never argued otherwise.

I used one extreme to fight another. I admit this freely.

Haha, that made me laugh.

[Mikawa Ossan]

So we've been arguing about two different things. Your argument: 外人 can mean someone who is an alien, and not just non-Japanese. My argument: Japanese people using 外人 to refer to non-Japanese does not mean that they are linguistically illogical people.

I was going to make a longer reply, but it all boils down to this.

Could you imagine if I'd posted a longer reply? We could have argued past one another forever!

Now back to the original thread...

[Mikawa Ossan]

I just had a horrible evening. It was pure hell, and I could only wish to express how happy I feel that now it's over. The worst part is that it really was a happy evening. I shall explain.

One of my friends got married today. She is Japanese, of course. Her new husband is not, however. He is American, and honestly he seemed like a nice guy (I met him for the first time today.) I am truly very happy for them, and I wish them only the best for the future.

But being American, of course all of the guests on his list were American. Most of the guests on my friend's list were young women interested in foreigners. Not a good mix for me personally. I'll spare you the details, but I felt intensely isolated from the fun.

The only thing that gave me solace were the staff at the place. They spoke to me the same way they would have spoken to any (Japanese) guest, and I wanted to talk to them sooo much more!

Even in this environment, the staff did not assume that I could not speak Japanese. They didn't assume that I COULD speak either, but as soon as I spoke in Japanese once, they never tried to talk to me in English again.

So getting back in line with the original thread topic, I think that although you will meet up with people who make assumptions that you can not speak Japanese (at all) from time to time, the vast majority of average Japanese people would rather not speak English even to foreigners if they don't have to. They would much rather prefer to speak in their native tongue.