For our Japanese readers : Things you should not say to Westerners

[Brooker]

When I got the chopstick question I was usually proud to show them how well I could use them. I never got tired of people complimenting me on that. I was even told my technique is better than many Japanese people.

[Maciamo]

When I got the chopstick question I was usually proud to show them how well I could use them. I never got tired of people complimenting me on that.

I reacted the same way in my first year in Japan. It slowly got irritating in the second year. Now it's almost 4 years, and as Mikecash pointed out I do meet lot's of new people all the time. So I get this chopstick question at least once a month (sometimes as much as 10x a month). That's about 45 months I have been in Japan. I suppose I have been asked this question (and many others) between 50 and 100x out of about 200-300 people I have met. That's a pretty high ratio.

I was even told my technique is better than many Japanese people.

Me too. I have been wondering if it was just so hypocritical compliments, or if so many Japanese really have problems using their chopsticks. However, my wife and her mother visibly cannot use their chopsticks with the same dexterity as I do, and they were the first to compliment me on my skills - something I do not feel proud of anyway, as it just came naturally, without hard practice. I wouldn't feel particularly happy/proud if someone told me that I can turn the pages of a book or put on my choose with great dexterity - well I do feel the same way about chopsticks.

Now the question is, why do many Japanese have trouble using their chopsticks, and why do they make such a big deal of it. I would never think of complimenting them on being able to use a fork and knife, riding a bicyle or being able to go up a ladder. So why these questions about chopsticks ? The only reason I can think of are :

- they believe that using chopsticks is a particularly difficult task that merits praise, because they have trouble using it themselves. (they are chopstickly challenged )
- they don't think that using chopstick is difficult. They are just making fun of foreigners by seeing how they react to hypocritical compliments of no value. (veiled hostility, unfriendliness)
- they don't think that using chopstick is difficult for them, but they believe that foreigners are intrinsicly inferior to Japanese and therefore cannot learn how to use chopsticks. (racism)

Can anyone think of another reason why they would ask this question (especially out of context) with such regularity, nationwide, regardless of their gender, age or socio-economic background ?

In any case, I believe that the first reason is the most likely.

[Glenn]

Can anyone think of another reason why they would ask this question (especially out of context) with such regularity, nationwide, regardless of their gender, age or socio-economic background ?

This brings up some questions for me. First, if they're bringing it up out of context I would assume that it's someone that you're meeting for the first time and they are just using it as an ice breaker, or something to keep the conversation going to avoid awkward silence. Am I right? It seems to me that the key here is "out of context."

In context it seems that the reason could be the same as out of context, or it could be a combination of that and all of the reasons you gave. I don't know how often they see foreigners* using chopsticks well, so it's hard for me to say. I also don't know how often they see foreigners using chopsticks poorly, or how often they see Japanese people using chopsticks poorly.



*Excluding foreigners to whom chopsticks are a cultural phenomenon, like China, Korea, Vietnam (I would guess), etc.

[TheKansaiKid]

I think most of the oft repeated questions that grow old come from a desire to make small talk. zatsudan requires something in common and often Japanese who haven't been around foreigners are baffled about what to talk about in social situations.

I'm on the record elsewhere as saying I think many of the complaints listed above that bother foreigners are in no way offensive to me. I think these overly sensitive gaijintachi should relax. Since I brought it up before I won't do it again...oops I already did.

Perhaps a good follow up to the lead post would be appropriate things to talk about in a social or informal situation.

[Maciamo]

I think most of the oft repeated questions that grow old come from a desire to make small talk. zatsudan requires something in common and often Japanese who haven't been around foreigners are baffled about what to talk about in social situations.

It very rarely happens to me not to be able to find a topic of conversation. Remember that there are two aspects about the chopsticks issue :

1) questions about one's ability to use chopsticks
2) compliment on one's ability to use chopsticks

The second one is never out of curiosity and usually not because of a lack of topic for discussion.

In any case, when I was asked the questioned or complimented, it was when we were already discussing other issues and it came as something like "by the way, talking about food, can you use chopsticks". So it was often already part of small talks, and often in an already 'lively' conversation (not an awkward situation where one doesn't know what to talk about).

I know it feels insistent on me to repeat this, but I really can't understand what this obsession with the gaijin's abilities to do banal things (chopsticks, futon...) is about. From my experience, after being asked these questions maybe between 50 and 100 times, I can say that most of the time it was not to break the ice, not to make small talks, mostly out of the blue, and the questioners' reaction was typically a great surprise when I told them that yes I could use chopsticks like everybody.

This surprise at the fact that I could use chopsticks (after answering the question, or when they see me using chopsticks) has made me wondered over the years why they attach so much importance to so such an ordinary thing - while they are not surprised that I can use a bicycle, open a window, switch on a TV, etc. Unfortunately, this was combined with the same disproportionate surprise at the fact that, in spite of being a gaijin, I can eat sushi (yes, even unagi, ikura and kai), sleep on a futon, that my country has 4 seasons, etc.

From the sushi and natto questions, I have understood that often they ask these questions because many Japanese do not like them. I could understand that some people may not feel comfortable sleeping on a futon or sitting in seiza. I don't mind these questions so much.

I have recently inquried toward a few Japanese friends, and some of my wife's friends, about the four season issue. I explained to my wife why I feel irritated at this question, and she also knows that most Western countries have four seasons. So we discussed, me, her, and two friends about it a few days ago, and the three of them admitted that they were taught at school that only Japan had four seasons. A few people have contested this on this forum, saying that children are taught that most countries around the world do not have as distinct seasons as Japan. However, my wife and our two friends were sure that, in their case, they were not told that Japan has more distinct seasons, but that only Japan had four season and that's it. I asked whether they were taught that in geography class, but the three of them said it was in "kokugo" (Japanese language) class sometime in the early years of primary/elementary school (they also said "chichai koro kara iwareteiru" => "we were told this since we were little"). All three went to different schools, by the way.

This has helped me confirmed what I had already asked dozens of people with whom I was less intimate. Japanese people (at least those I have asked) are taught at school that only Japan has four seasons. I admit that the people I questioned were almost only in their 20's and 30's, so it might have been different for older or younger generations.

The same can be said about blood groups. From my inquiries, the Japanese are taught that they are mostly "A", why Westerners are mostly "O" (partially true, but a gross overgeneralisation as there are as many "O" as "A" in Western European countries). What is more annoying is that they are also taught (from my personal surveys) that these differences exist because the Japanese were farmers in "old times", while Europeans were hunters. As I explained here, it is a blatant lie and completely wrong historically. I was shocked to see that even well-read, intelligent people having studied abroad believe in this, because they have never questioned it since the school days.

Knowing this, we could wonder why they are taught such blatant lies as part of the national education system - not in one school, but apparently most if not all of them.

That is where it dawned on me that it could be some sort of nationalistic propaganda known as "nihonjinron". I have explained this here

I may be one of the few foreigners sensitive enough to feel that Japanese were indoctrinated to believe that foreigners can't do this and that, that only Japan has for seasons, etc. I may be one of the rare persons to take this seriously, but I believe that I am right to think that we are dealing with nation-wide indoctrination based on the "nihonjinron". Japanese people of course do not realise that, and few foreigners have the necessary knowledge of Japanese culture, world history/geography, and psychology of education. I happen to be extremely interested in all these fields, and have the adequate experience of living in Japan for a few years, meeting lots of people. Other people in the same situation as me (as rare as they may be), may lack the sharp critical sense and questioning of the causes and reasons why things are the way they are. People who have spent some time on this forum will know that I am sometimes (often?) overcritical and analytic of things I take at heart.

I may sound absurd to argue about "chopsticks". But people need to see the big picture. I know it's difficult for someone who hasn't experienced all these weird questions, or hasn't given it a second thought. Maybe it is time for all of you to pay attention to the people who ask you the chopsticks, blood group, 4 seasons or sushi questions. Try to feel how they feel. Try to see through their mind, guess their thoughts, and even better, ask them why they ask these questions, see their reaction and hope they explain their preconceptions. If they don't, ask them whether they think that your country has four season or not. Ask them what they were taught at school. Ask them why it is surprising that a Westerner living in Japan can use chopsticks. Ask them about their blood group and hope they tell you about the "farmer" vs "hunter" theory they were taught. Do it with as many people as you can, then give me your feedbacks here and let's compare the results.

Please understand that I do not blame the Japanese who ask these questions or hold these beliefs. I blame the people who taught them, and ultimately the Ministry of Education that ordered/advised the teachers to tell those lies or inculcate those misconceptions.

[kellymich]

It very rarely happens to me not to be able to find a topic of conversation. Remember that there are two aspects about the chopsticks issue :
1) questions about one's ability to use chopsticks
2) compliment on one's ability to use chopsticks
The second one is never out of curiosity and usually not because of a lack of topic for discussion.
In any case, when I was asked the questioned or complimented, it was when we were already discussing other issues and it came as something like "by the way, talking about food, can you use chopsticks". So it was often already part of small talks, and often in an already 'lively' conversation (not an awkward situation where one doesn't know what to talk about).
I know it feels insistent on me to repeat this, but I really can't understand what this obsession with the gaijin's abilities to do banal things (chopsticks, futon...) is about. From my experience, after being asked these questions maybe between 50 and 100 times, I can say that most of the time it was not to break the ice, not to make small talks, mostly out of the blue, and the questioners' reaction was typically a great surprise when I told them that yes I could use chopsticks like everybody.
This surprise at the fact that I could use chopsticks (after answering the question, or when they see me using chopsticks) has made me wondered over the years why they attach so much importance to so such an ordinary thing - while they are not surprised that I can use a bicycle, open a window, switch on a TV, etc. Unfortunately, this was combined with the same disproportionate surprise at the fact that, in spite of being a gaijin, I can eat sushi (yes, even unagi, ikura and kai), sleep on a futon, that my country has 4 seasons, etc.
From the sushi and natto questions, I have understood that often they ask these questions because many Japanese do not like them. I could understand that some people may not feel comfortable sleeping on a futon or sitting in seiza. I don't mind these questions so much.
I have recently inquried toward a few Japanese friends, and some of my wife's friends, about the four season issue. I explained to my wife why I feel irritated at this question, and she also knows that most Western countries have four seasons. So we discussed, me, her, and two friends about it a few days ago, and the three of them admitted that they were taught at school that only Japan had four seasons. A few people have contested this on this forum, saying that children are taught that most countries around the world do not have as distinct seasons as Japan. However, my wife and our two friends were sure that, in their case, they were not told that Japan has more distinct seasons, but that only Japan had four season and that's it. I asked whether they were taught that in geography class, but the three of them said it was in "kokugo" (Japanese language) class sometime in the early years of primary/elementary school (they also said "chichai koro kara iwareteiru" => "we were told this since we were little"). All three went to different schools, by the way.
This has helped me confirmed what I had already asked dozens of people with whom I was less intimate. Japanese people (at least those I have asked) are taught at school that only Japan has four seasons. I admit that the people I questioned were almost only in their 20's and 30's, so it might have been different for older or younger generations.
The same can be said about blood groups. From my inquiries, the Japanese are taught that they are mostly "A", why Westerners are mostly "O" (partially true, but a gross overgeneralisation as there are as many "O" as "A" in Western European countries). What is more annoying is that they are also taught (from my personal surveys) that these differences exist because the Japanese were farmers in "old times", while Europeans were hunters. As I explained here[/url], it is a blatant lie and completely wrong historically. I was shocked to see that even well-read, intelligent people having studied abroad believe in this, because they have never questioned it since the school days.
Knowing this, we could wonder why they are taught such blatant lies as part of the national education system - not in one school, but apparently most if not all of them.
That is where it dawned on me that it could be some sort of nationalistic propaganda known as "nihonjinron". I have explained this
I may be one of the few foreigners sensitive enough to feel that Japanese were indoctrinated to believe that foreigners can't do this and that, that only Japan has for seasons, etc. I may be one of the rare persons to take this seriously, but I believe that I am right to think that we are dealing with nation-wide indoctrination based on the "nihonjinron". Japanese people of course do not realise that, and few foreigners have the necessary knowledge of Japanese culture, world history/geography, and psychology of education. I happen to be extremely interested in all these fields, and have the adequate experience of living in Japan for a few years, meeting lots of people. Other people in the same situation as me (as rare as they may be), may lack the sharp critical sense and questioning of the causes and reasons why things are the way they are. People who have spent some time on this forum will know that I am sometimes (often?) overcritical and analytic of things I take at heart.
I may sound absurd to argue about "chopsticks". But people need to see the big picture. I know it's difficult for someone who hasn't experienced all these weird questions, or hasn't given it a second thought. Maybe it is time for all of you to pay attention to the people who ask you the chopsticks, blood group, 4 seasons or sushi questions. Try to feel how they feel. Try to see through their mind, guess their thoughts, and even better, ask them why they ask these questions, see their reaction and hope they explain their preconceptions. If they don't, ask them whether they think that your country has four season or not. Ask them what they were taught at school. Ask them why it is surprising that a Westerner living in Japan can use chopsticks. Ask them about their blood group and hope they tell you about the "farmer" vs "hunter" theory they were taught. Do it with as many people as you can, then give me your feedbacks here and let's compare the results.
Please understand that I do not blame the Japanese who ask these questions or hold these beliefs. I blame the people who taught them, and ultimately the Ministry of Education that ordered/advised the teachers to tell those lies or inculcate those misconceptions.

I think you should lighten up a little macomo and not try to impose your values on the japanese.

Japan is not multicultural new york - thank goodness. They have a culture that goes back 1000's of years. And yes, it is a very insular culture in many ways.

I find that with good humor, self respect and respect for others values most problems of being a foreigner can be overcome. But we will always be foreigners, to some extent. If you haven't found many japanese friends while you are living in japan then the problem may consist with you more than with the japanese. The japanese will accept foreigners as friends, but only some foreigners.

The kind of nitpicking criticisms that you have or your role as a "social reformer" and know it all westerner wont go over very well. Why not try to accept the japanese people for what they are and learn about them ... they are a facinating and subtle people. I do sympathize with you though, it can be hard to be a foreigner in japan. Some people are not cut out for it and I don't mean this in a demeaning way... It does require skill, self confidence and sometimes a thick skin.

But in my opinion, you are letting petty and small things upset you too much and you are influenced by too many 20 and 21st century western value judgements which may be ruining your time in japan.

I'd take living in japan as a foreigner any day, over a place like new york. But that is me. I have come to appreciate the japanese people and way of life, including some of their foibles and predjudices...there is a wisdom to the japanese which goes deeper than the americans which could only have come from a unified people and centuries of traditions and culture. I don't feel it is my place to judge them especially considering the horrendous condition of my own culture and country in america, in the 21st century.

[Maciamo]

This brings up some questions for me. First, if they're bringing it up out of context I would assume that it's someone that you're meeting for the first time and they are just using it as an ice breaker, or something to keep the conversation going to avoid awkward silence. Am I right? It seems to me that the key here is "out of context."

No, no. I can't remember anyone using as an icebreaker or to break an awkward silence. It usually comes well in the middle of a conversation, and not usually at the first meeting (sometimes after I have met the person over 10 or 30 times, but sooner or later this question comes for 80% of the people I have met). I know it may sound unbelievable if you haven't stayed in Japan for some time (a few years) and met lots of people there. But that's how it is.

How would you explain that even my wife or her family complimented me on my chopstick skills ? It's definitely not an icebreaker, it's not because they don't know me, it's also not for reasons #2 and #3. In that case I know it's because of reason #1 (they have trouble using chopsticks themselves). But I can't believe that 80% or so of the Japanese have problems using chopsticks, although they grew up with it, like Westerners grew up using a fork and knife. I have never felt it was more difficult to use chopsticks. In fact, I sometimes refuse to eat some dishes with a fork/knive/spoon instead of chopsticks. It really depends on the dish itself (can't eat sushi or ramen with a fork, can you ?)

[DoctorP]

First, if they're bringing it up out of context I would assume that it's someone that you're meeting for the first time and they are just using it as an ice breaker, or something to keep the conversation going to avoid awkward silence. Am I right?

I don't think that this applies...Japanese (unlike most Westerners) are comfortable around periods of silence and don't feel the need for trivial talk...at least in my observations.

On the topic of chopsticks being difficult? Even though I can eat with them quite well, I would say yes it should be considered quite a difficult task...at least much harder than just stabbing your prey with a fork!

[Maciamo]

On the topic of chopsticks being difficult? Even though I can eat with them quite well, I would say yes it should be considered quite a difficult task...at least much harder than just stabbing your prey with a fork!

Is it ? Not for me. I finish every single grain of rice in my bowl by picking them one by one with my chopsticks. I don't feel like I have to pay more attention than doing it with a fork or spoon. I guess it just depends of used to it you are, and more importantly what kind of food you eat (nobody will eat a beefsteak with chopsticks). Do you normally use chopsticks everyday ? It only took me a few days/weeks to get completely used to it. I don't see why even the slowest Japanese learner would have a problem after 20, 30 or 50 years of daily usage.

[DoctorP]

Is it ? Not for me. I finish every single grain of rice in my bowl by picking them one by one with my chopsticks. I don't feel like I have to pay more attention than doing it with a fork or spoon. I guess it just depends of used to it you are, and more importantly what kind of food you eat (nobody will eat a beefsteak with chopsticks). Do you normally use chopsticks everyday ? It only took me a few days/weeks to get completely used to it. I don't see why even the slowest Japanese learner would have a problem after 20, 30 or 50 years of daily usage.

All I was saying is that it takes more manual dexterity to use chopsticks (IMHO). I was able to use chopsticks after my third or forth attempt, and I use them quite regularly now. (I have lived here for 9 years now) There are still many foods that I would prefer to have a fork or spoon to eat with though!

[Kyoto Returnee]

When I got the chopstick question I was usually proud to show them how well I could use them. I never got tired of people complimenting me on that. I was even told my technique is better than many Japanese people.

They were just being polite as to avoid embarassement.
http://www.robsworld.org/chopsticks.html