Thanks, Kappa. This video speaks for itself.
Thanks, Kappa. This video speaks for itself.
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"What is the use of living, if it be not to strive for noble causes and to make this muddled world a better place for those who will live in it after we are gone?", Winston Churchill.
Actually some Chinese restaurants in Australia give fork and knives to non Asian people. They get the waitress to go around asking their clients whether they prefer fork or knife.
I do agree that most of those questions can be offensive, but for me,
i don't take offense to many things.
Like the Chopstick question, i went to a korean restaurant once,
this was the first time i had ever been to any kind of "Asian"
restaurant and i had never used Chopsticks, i had seen them used.
The waitress asked if i wanted a fork, but i told her i would try the
Chopsticks, i think i was as surprised as she was that i handled
them so effortlessly, she had a big grin the rest of that time.
If i ever move to Japan i think i would enjoy the Japanese
people's questions as much as i enjoyed that Korean lady's,
even if they do sound offensive. But maybe that's just because
no one in my own country seems to want to carry on any
kind of conversation with me, not even a meaningless one.
Annubis, I honestly couldn't think of a better explanation.
You're very correct, I've always thought that if something
is bothersome enough then the person should tend to it rather
than expect the other party to adjust to them automatically.
Like Annubis pointed it out, prejudice is existing everywhere. I also worked in quite a few places surrounded by (mostly) men. It seems that a lot of men are friendly and open minded only if a woman is their love interest or their boss (or the wife of the boss)... But sometimes not even then. Prejudice has something to do with social ranking and people who feel inferior and afraid. I was never insulted by any guy who would feel at ease, being smart, having at least some sense of humor and no problems with his "position". But I was actually asked identically similar dumb questions like the mentioned in this thread by men, who felt very uneasy facing my educational level, my amount of knowledge or experience or anything they would consider "superior". And for a woman, being constantly talked to on any occasion, no matter if you read a book, or are not interested, or just want to sit somewhere in peace is such a "normal" everyday thing!
So, some men get crazy and mad, because they are suddenly experiencing things a woman is experiencing on a daily basis, even in her own home country. Maybe this was meant by Karma as a small lesson?
I am not supposed to ever get mad or crazy about the exact same thing some of the guys are getting crazy about in this forum. If I would start complaining like this all the time, I would be considered "hysterical" or a "crazy and frustrated feminist". But all of you think it is plain rightful to complain about this as a man in Japan. Hm...
How many men think that a woman cannot drive a car or understand math? With all those female stunt drivers in the movies and all those Nobel price winning female scientists?
I may add, i am also a foreigner, originating from another country, this only doubled and tripled the amount of ridiculous questions and silly prejudice. But after long years I have found, that I am no better at all judging people I myself consider "alien" or "strange". It was kind of a frightening experience, seeing myself really attached to completely insane or dumb sets of ideas. But, interestingly, it only happened towards people I considered inferior, mostly at times I felt very uneasy about myself and very unhappy about my life in generally.
So lets face it: the Japanese people show a worldwide common behavior of people, who feel great insecurity about their "position", while at the same time feeling the need of having a certain rank. They are most likely unhappy and feeling inferior. But this does not make the insults or anything else easier. Even if I admit it is absolutely rightful to say "better as to be spit on", it does not make the insult better. You just feel hurt and humiliated, one single insult can be like a slap in the face and show there will never by any "making friends" with a certain person or a group. It's a lonesome feeling for any human being.
In the first quoted paragraph, you say that dumb (prejudicial) questions are asked by people who are uneasy because they see you as superior.Originally Posted by pretty_mama
In the second paragraph, you explain that you only had such prejudice against people who you consider to be inferior.
In the third paragraph, you blame the prejudices on the Japanese' sense of inferiority.
So it seems that in your experience the Japanese you met were uneasy and prejudiced against you as a foreigner because they felt inferior. But you only held similar prejudice when you felt superior to others.
That's interesting because I have the same experience. So why is it that we (as Westerners) are more prejudiced against people who we see as inferior, but the opposite is true of the Japanese ? That's an interesting culture difference.
Or perhaps the Japanese are prejudiced towards foreigners both when they feel inferior and superior, or a combination of both feelings (something certainly common when interracting with educated foreigners whose attitude may conflict with the propriety of Japanese culture).
One sure thing is that the Japanese have a natural inclination to feel inferior (lack of self-esteem), whereas Westerners often suffer from the opposite (excess of self-esteem). This can be observed in the expression of personal opinions. The Japanese try to avoid it, or give up quickly when someone disagrees. Westerners are often eager to express their opinion, and will often fight when meeting disagreement. Self-esteem.
I like 美人ネス
I suppose how many times / how often you are asked these things certainly depends on how many people you meet or are introduced to formally, and then associate with informally.
Honestly, there are questions like this that I'm sure people who are new to America.
"Do you need help making change/with directions/finding something local/with language?" these all seem like international questions to me. Japan only has more specialized ones (chopstick, natto, reading/writing japanese) because they are unique culturally.
At least, that is my opinion.
You make a very good point here, pretty_mama.And for a woman, being constantly talked to on any occasion, no matter if you read a book, or are not interested, or just want to sit somewhere in peace is such a "normal" everyday thing!
Last edited by AroundTheWorld; Jun 27, 2008 at 15:44. Reason: Automerged Doublepost
What do you mean by formally and informally ? I am not familiar with the concept. Does being introduced to someone formally mean that someone you know introduced you to someone else and explained your "background" ? I can imagine that strangers, like shopkeepers, are informal relations. But what about workmates, friends who were introduced by other friends, etc. ? I cannot see clearly where you draw the line between formal and informal.
Do you expect to be asked more of these questions by formal or informal relations ?
These are practical questions that people ask everywhere. I think that the author of this topic meant culturally biased questions or reactions.Honestly, there are questions like this that I'm sure people who are new to America.
"Do you need help making change/with directions/finding something local/with language?" these all seem like international questions to me.
Chopsticks are more Chinese than Japanese to me.Japan only has more specialized ones (chopstick, natto, reading/writing japanese) because they are unique culturally.
Believe what you want, Dave. Quoting my brief responses to endlessly repeated questions is hardly a reason, especially since you don't even know the tone of my voice or the look on my face when I say those things, but it's your prerogative.
I just get the feeling that you are not happy with the way a lot of things are done here by a lot of the remarks in your posts as a whole. I am sorry if I have it wrong, but it just seems that way...
Do I think Japan is a perfect place? No. Neither is my home country.
Do I dislike either one? Pretty general blanket statement, to which I will also say no.
Are there elements I dislike about each? Yup.
Overall, I'm quite happy living here.
Much appreciation for your replies to my previous post.
Glenski, Annubis, Nanook, FrustratedDave and Ashikaga, I found your posts to be particularly helpful.
Below is a rough draft of my abstract for the presentation/workshop that I am planning:
This presentation will cover problems that sometimes occur when native Japanese attempt to communicate with foreigners. Many of these problems occur unbeknownst to the Japanese person involved, but may lead to further trouble as communication continues. Not only will this workshop help attendants avoid these problems, but it will moreover give them strategies to improve communication and gain confidence when speaking with people from other countries. Both native Japanese and non-Japanese are welcome to attend and contribute their own ideas and experiences. The workshop will be done in a combination of Japanese and English.
As the second to last sentence implies, I would like to be more of a discussion facilitator than a lecturer, bringing out the ideas and opinions of anyone who cares to voice them. The presentation is open to the public, but will probably consist mostly of middle-aged Japanese people with perhaps a few college students. Hopefully, other foreigners will also show up, and hopefully at least some of those foreigners will not be white males like myself, so that we can learn about how others experience communication in Japan differently (or similarly). I am also hoping that at least some of the Japanese people in attendance will have had experience living abroad, so that they can relate issues they had when communicating with people in those countries.
I do plan, as Glenski suggested, to "keep it light". I agree with FrustratedDave (and probably most, if not all, of the others here) that such things as "日本語上手！" to a ”はじめまして” are seldom if ever born of ill-intent and are not as big of a deal as they seem to have become on this thread. As FD and some others seem to suggest, at least some of the fault lies with foreigners who negatively interpret what has been said.
I think I will begin the presentation by relating a funny parallel experience that a Japanese native had when living abroad and then get the audience to look the other way around, putting themselves in the shoes of foreigners living here in Japan. Ashikaga, I would love to read more about situations where you felt a little irked by the assumptions others seem to have made about you during your 20+ years in the States (e.g. the "sorry we only have regular tea" incident).
This post is getting long, so I leave off here for the time being.
Thanks again and looking forward to more discussion.
When I took my first Japanese language course in the USA, the teacher herself inadvertently demonstrated a cultural communication problem.
She called a student by name to come to the front and help her demonstrate something. The name didn't sound clear enough, or the instruction itself wasn't clear enough, or the student was shy, so the teacher gestured to come.
Gesture: palm down, fingers waving inward
Student had stood up and taken a step when he saw this, then awkwardly returned to his seat.
Teacher was confused and spoke again: "Please come here next to me."
Student rose, took a step, saw the gesture again, and sat down.
Puzzled teacher and student.
I had to explain that the gesture meant to the teacher one thing, but the opposite to the student. It appeared that she was pushing away and thereby telling the student o go away or sit down.
I can see this from both sides. 99% of the time, the chopsticks question etc.. won't get to you. But sometimes people have bad days and it is those days I think where things like that, when they happen, will get to you. Personally for me, i find it enjoyable most of the time to shatter peoples stereotypes, and help educate a little bit. Usually i am in a good mood and more than willing to explain to people.. things like becki said that Asian cuisine etc.. is quite popular in Western countries therefore there are probably more Westerners out there who can use chopsticks than you think.
Also i think a lot of these stereotypes got their root when the world was less internationalized, like my father for example who is 64 would be a perfect stereotypical gaijin .. blond, blues eyes cant use chopsticks to save his life. From the younger Japanese population i tend to find these questions to be quite rare, and thus most of the time coming from people of older generations.
Chopsticks compliment: I actually don't hold them properly so, i explain that i hold my pencil weird too.
Language compliment: Hmm... well one time i remember i was drunk at conbini..... and these other drunk guys eyed me.. so i think i said konbanwa or something.. and they are like nihongo jyozu desune.. and i was like.. in a joking manner.. "oh come on..i say good evening and you compliment my "great" Japanese".. and we started BSing for like 5 minutes after that, it was fun.. but most of the time.. i just decline the compliment just like a Japanese person would.
They only thing that gets on my nerves regularly these days is being with my GF and getting ignored.. and it is not so much because i am getting ignored.. but the fact that my GF is 70% deaf, and cannot even respond half of the time cuz they do not look directly at her or talk with a "big mouth" so she can read their lips.. so i try to do the talking most of the time, and it can be a fight to get them to stop trying to ask her everything and address me.
edit: long post, sorry but i got into the swing of responding...
i think this is possibly linked to their insular and... (how embarrassing for the word to escape me on line one of my response! >.<) lets say kohai/senpai | age/sage etc. mindset whereby appreciating someone else's talents automatically makes you inferior to them. its a cultural system which discourages equality to a certain extent... for example, even two similar people (age, gender, job, position, family) may be judged by society as 'this one is better than this one' because A-san's children are doing better at school, or B-san's wife follows a more traditional lifestyle and is thus more acceptable. both A-san and B-san will be aware of this societal judgement and perhaps pre-empt it by acknowledging the other's strength or admitting their own shortcomings, a perfectly standard reaction. but with gaijin, they have no frame of reference other than the stated annoying questions, assumedly learned from outdated interactions that have been mimicked over time... i wonder in fact, given the law of politeness found in japan, if it is considered rude not to ask these questions of foreigners? no implication of such by users in a thread almost 4 years old kinda indicates that's not the case, but i do wonder...Originally Posted by Maciamo
That's the Japanese dilema. Inferior but superior. They want to prove themselves superior (and hundreds of books were written on the subject in the 1980's), but still feel inferor because their movies never equal Hollywood, their artists rarely rival Western ones, their best baseball players move to the US, Japan is not nearly as beautiful as countries like France, Italy, the UK, Australia, or the US, Japan will always be behind the West historically, and as I see it Japan is set to stay a political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.
being spat is highly unneccessary in pretty much every encounter someone could have, but come on, gettin called a homo is a standard insult in the uk, same as he wouldnt actually have been questioning your paternal bonds is he called you a bastard. that said, good on you for giving up the smokes! i hate strangers asking me for things in general, but when they react as if it's their right... man... ok not ranting today!Originally Posted by Rich303
will say this though, I bet I would find it less insulting than being spat at or having my sexuality questioned because I wouldn't give a girl I didn't know a cigarette, both of which have happened to me quite recently in the UK.
i agree with your sentiments, but this one stood out for me as i've experienced similar in my own country by visiting europeans and natives. the people i have worked with from europe were often surprised at local ignorance at aspects of the country you'd think people would know (location of famous buildings, people from history etc), "fair enough" one may think, "cultural differences mean they place a higher priority on knowing these aspects" however... i was born and raised in london, and have since moved to 2 other cities in the UK, people would often ask me this that or the other about london, as it's an area of interest to many simply because it's the capital, but 90% i wouldnt be able to answer these questions, 50% of the time i would say i had zero knowledge of what they were asking "i dont know, what's that?!" (probably more, but i dont want to make myself seem entirely ignorant). my point is, people from a place often dont care about that place because it's ever present and dull, and those from elsewhere often know more about it because they have an interest, but cannot experience it, so they build a knowledge base to help them imagine it. i dont think it's uncommon for 'out-of-towners' (aka gaijin) to know more about a place than a local.Originally Posted by ASHIKAGA
me being familiar with things you would think anyone who has lived there for 20 years would surely be familiar with ( "Wow, you know about so-and-so better than an American person!" ).
this is not a comparitive situation. your skilled friend would take that as a compliment because he is skilled in a native area. if however, you continuously complimented his handwritten english regardless of his skill, he may take offence because you would be drawing attention to the fact that he is using a foreign script and hence saying he's skilled may suggest you never realised that people who use ideaograms were able to write using roman letters.Originally Posted by FrustratedDave
I can make a comment to a friend of mine who Japanese on how beautiful his handwritten Kanji is several times over a period of time and keep doing it, just b/c I am in awe on how good he is. He is Japanese and is expected to write Japanese, so me complimenting him on his beautiful handwritting several times even though it is a given that he can write kanji is an offense to him? I actually thought this would be a compliment.
doesn't make it less annoying though. a similar phenomenon is often felt by british people in america, when shop clerks are overly eager to assist a customer shopping (feels like you're being pressured), but its still standard procedure. and to make it fair (i feel im being too anti-everywhere) many european friends find it ridiculous that you are expected to have chips/fries with every meal when eating out over here. (it's not true, but... well, it kinda isOriginally Posted by FrustratedDave
You have after all been living here for 10 years or more and should realise by now that compliments like these are part and parcel of Japan?true enough to see their point at least)
WOO POTATOES!
i guess i half agree with you, i don't believe this process is deliberatly insulting, it's not like they're being sarcastic, and taking offence will make you get annoyed faster than if you take it lightly, but... it doesnt make these questions any less insipid and/or mindless. i would equate it to praising a child for a picture scrawled in crayon, you say to the child "wow! that's amazing! well done!" but realistically, its a piece of crap, it's only praiseworthy because they are at that level and to treat foreigners in this way is insulting. i wouldnt mind if my japanese was amazing and someone praised me for it, assuming i had demonstrated said amazingness and not just uttered ”はじめまして"Originally Posted by leander
I do plan, as Glenski suggested, to "keep it light". I agree with FrustratedDave (and probably most, if not all, of the others here) that such things as "日本語上手！" to a ”はじめまして” are seldom if ever born of ill-intent and are not as big of a deal as they seem to have become on this thread. As FD and some others seem to suggest, at least some of the fault lies with foreigners who negatively interpret what has been said.
i'll save other thoughts for a future post because that was painfully long...
Last edited by GameOver; Jan 5, 2009 at 15:33. Reason: suck at quoting
That's an interesting point ! I haven't given much thought before, but it could be true. Japanese people will tell you that Japan is an egalitarian society, but interractions always seem to have one person outranking the other(s). This could be a desperate way to distinguish themselves from their neighbour in this overly homogenous and egalitarian society.
But is being complimented on one's Japanese a sign that the complimenter think of you as hierarchically superior ?
Politeness has nothing to do with it. It's all curiosity based on a (still) insular mentality.
I agree to a point, but have you watched the quiz shows here? Some of the questions center around being able to identify people or locations (in or outside Japan) from their pictures. The same people or locations crop up all the time. Rote memorization again. They know where the XYZ obelisk is in Japan because they have seen it on TV so many times. They know a certain writer for the same reason.my point is, people from a place often dont care about that place because it's ever present and dull, and those from elsewhere often know more about it because they have an interest, but cannot experience it, so they build a knowledge base to help them imagine it. i dont think it's uncommon for 'out-of-towners' (aka gaijin) to know more about a place than a local.
"Skilled"? Japanese spend 12 years of their lives endlessly learning about 2000 kanji with exacting stroke order and shape (and a zillion meanings to go with various pronunciations). It is not a skill, as much as it is a part of their lives.Originally Posted by FrustratedDave
I can make a comment to a friend of mine who Japanese on how beautiful his handwritten Kanji is several times over a period of time and keep doing it, just b/c I am in awe on how good he is. He is Japanese and is expected to write Japanese, so me complimenting him on his beautiful handwritting several times even though it is a given that he can write kanji is an offense to him? I actually thought this would be a compliment.
this is not a comparitive situation. your skilled friend would take that as a compliment because he is skilled in a native area.
Personally, if someone told me continuously something like that, I'd slap him for the repetition. Once, thanks. Twice, gee you're really impressed with this thing I've been FORCED to do. Three times, get over it.if however, you continuously complimented his handwritten english regardless of his skill, he may take offence because you would be drawing attention to the fact that he is using a foreign script and hence saying he's skilled may suggest you never realised that people who use ideaograms were able to write using roman letters.
Sorry, but now it is you who is not comparing fairly. Sales people have a vocational obligation to do that. Japanese people asking those insipid questions are just curious.Originally Posted by FrustratedDave
You have after all been living here for 10 years or more and should realise by now that compliments like these are part and parcel of Japan?
doesn't make it less annoying though. a similar phenomenon is often felt by british people in america, when shop clerks are overly eager to assist a customer shopping (feels like you're being pressured), but its still standard procedure
Again, I think you are comparing apples and oranges here. Someone says "arigato" and only that, and a Japanese person will toss out compliments on his Japanese language ability. Gimme a break. You don't even KNOW my level, and even so, to dispense compliments over just a word or two is silly and UNrealistic.it doesnt make these questions any less insipid and/or mindless. i would equate it to praising a child for a picture scrawled in crayon, you say to the child "wow! that's amazing! well done!" but realistically, its a piece of crap, it's only praiseworthy because they are at that level
Can't tell you how many times I've had Japanese people come up to me and try their English out of the blue. Worse than that is when you ask something to someone in Japanese and they make something last for minutes that should to 3 seconds to say as they insist on replying in their very limited and crappy English.
Get used to it if you intend to live in Japan. It's offensive to many of us, but it's a fact of life.Originally Posted by A ke bono kane kotto
I was born and grew up in a different country from where I have lived for half of my life until now. I find it offensive that people would think that I am just a guest after so many years.
Right, but you intentionally forget the two words, "in English".
Your next step may be to consider the semantics in both English and Japanese.
***snip***
Just curious, but I am wondering how different she is.
If it is not how, enlighten me what she usually wears to be an Irish woman, please. (I am not fashion-conscious, though)
You're right about the semantics in English. When speaking Japanese, the story is different, but if we are talking about what not to say in English, only English semantics apply. I didn't intentionally forget English, I just assumed that 'in English' was understood, as this whole thread is in English.
As for my girlfriend who dresses different, she usually wears vintage 60's or 70's jackets, slightly ripped jeans, knit hats that aren't often seen around here, bright colors other than pink, and some other things that just aren't common. She also has short, naturally black hair cut in a kind of a bob and likes dramatic eyeliner and multicolored lipstick. She never carries a proper purse, and instead uses Irish reusable grocery bags and old backpacks. Over the summer, she used to wear tank tops and spike her hair straight up, as it was much shorter. The point is, she doesn't look like most Japanese women I see around here. I can't blame anyone for thinking she's not Japanese. Honestly, if I just saw her on a train, I'd think she was a foreigner too.
A point of this thread is what not to say in English in Japan, so not only English semantics, but different stories also apply here. The Can story is nothing but a small talk in Japanese after all.
Even for someone like you properly educated without stereotypes or prejudice make mistakes, the story when you met her, so it is fair and natural for falsely educated Japanese to make mistakes.
Hopefully you ask your girlfriend if she learned 4 seasons ONLY in Japan at school, for it may take ages before A ke bono kane kotto gets the answer from a Japanese.
*snip
I don't know if her fashion represents Irish, but she must be beautiful as well as fashion-conscious.
Thanks, anyways.
The Can comment has been said to me by some people who are quite smart and good in English. A few times, I've met someone who said "Can you eat..." and then corrected themselves with "Do you like..."
Although the "Can you eat natto?" question I understand as many people, Japanese or otherwise, can't stomach the stuff. On the other hand, I love it.
I asked my girlfriend about the 4 seasons. She said she learned a lot about the world from her well educated and internationally minded mother, so I can't at all say what is taught in school.
Maybe her fashion sense isn't very Irish, as I must admit I've never been to Ireland, but I know it's not very Japanese and those are the only two countries she's lived in. She is quite lovely, thanks.
racism should be challenged, not tolerated. Why would it bother you who are afraid to speak up, he who does not fight evil helps evil.racism should be actively challenged in all nations.
racism unchallenged leads to genocide.
Last edited by ASHIKAGA; Aug 6, 2009 at 17:02.
Who said anything about jokes about foreigners? And getting upset about being asked what ones hair color is, that must really be an embarrasing question... Must be b/c 90% of the population who die their hair go a lighter color. Maybe you should take that up with them? When you come back from fairy land maybe we can talk about reality and coping with it? I am sure there are groups around...
Yep, asking someone if they have eaten something that is typically only eaten by Japanese is racism? Or what seasons you have back where you are from is racism? Again, when you come back from fairy land...
Everyone run, get out of Japan... genocide is on the horizon!!!
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