Are Japanese more hypocritical with foreigners ?

[Mikawa Ossan]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts! It's very refreshing to hear views from non-white foreigners in Japan!

When I got complimented on something so simple, I couldn't help but start thinking of some of them as children. Despite the fact that I am a foreigner, I am still a minor and as adults I expected more maturity out of them.

And in the end I really thought Japanese people were so funny and at times cute in their naive ways. To find myself more mature than college students or adults was both disappointing and humorous.

I suppose it depends on how you define maturity and naivetee. I felt similar to you a long time ago. Now I have a different outlook. You might want to consider that in certain aspects, maturity is defined differently in Japan than in the US.

Afterall we all found certain flaws in all our cultures from European to America and as friends were frank in our criticism. Yet all our flaws and that of Japan is what makes the world both interesting and irritating and ultimately just the place I've laughed, cried, and simply lived in.

Thank you!

[SenkoGC017]

I suppose it depends on how you define maturity and naivetee. I felt similar to you a long time ago. Now I have a different outlook. You might want to consider that in certain aspects, maturity is defined differently in Japan than in the US.

Yeah, I know that having spent only a limited amount of time there, that I probably am wrong in certain areas or left before I could fully accept certain things. However I got the idea of me being more mature than alot of Japanese people from a Japanese college friend of mind. She kept mistaking me as someone in her age group or older. As a japanese person she has her own standards of what being mature means and it seemed I fit the bill in that sense. Alot of times I felt like I was the adult in the relationship and I had to be the one to play the role of sempai.

However you are right that maturity is defined differently in Japan than in the U.S. My outward actions aren't what makes me mature. Instead it is my thoughts and viewpoints on certain things that matters. In Japan, it was the opposite. The cover defined the individual.

Also in America most everyone has a dream already for their future. We have our goals and our plans for it. That's when we become mature as high school students. My American classmates usually have this conviction of what they want to do with their lives or what purpose they what to gear their future towards. I didn't get that feeling in Japan and I know that the lack of intellectual pursuits of those I met did affect my opinion on their maturity level.

The lack of decision making skills alot of them have also made them seem less mature to me. In America, one's ability to decide for themselves and live on their own are pivotal to their growth. It's what defines us and me. Since these ideas of maturity are so essential in my own self-definition, I can't help but apply it on others as a standard.

And yeah I know it is different for all cultures, but that will be something I will learn and not just know after I grow more mature in my own culture's eyes.

[Maciamo]

Hi and welcome to the forum SengoGC017 !

You start on the forum with a very interesting first post. Thanks for the contribution.

The Japanese education system and perhaps the whole economy has a problem with making efficient use of hardwork.

That is also how I felt about it. In other words it is a problem of productivity. That is why the Japanese are seen as very hard working, and many of them spend hours in cram schools after school, and work till very late at night by international standard, but in the end are not more knowledgeable and do not produce more money per capita than in other developed countries.

[JerseyBoy]

This is a very interesting thread. There are many observations, opinions, and perspectives expressed here. I would like to comment on a few items mentioned in this thread. Mind you, these are the very generalized opinions and individual mileage may vary.

1. There are always some people in each and every country who have shut off outside world and are happy to live in his/her own conclave.

2. In general, lower working class is not known for higher education and worldly knowledge. (there are always exceptions as there are knowledgeable people in the lower working class). If you evaluate the culture or country based on its lower working class (I am using this term very loosely), the outcome is going to be less than stellar.

3. Like other forum members mentioned, Japanese people tend not to express his/her mind freely so as not to deviate from the social norm/expectations. For example, the Japanese language tends to incorporate some ambiguity as you can change "Do (positive)" or "Do Not (negative)" at the end of the sentence by evaluating how the other party is responding to you.

4. Reading the other party's mind is considered a necessity and virtue to be socially functional in Japan. It's difficult to coax what's in his/her mind as you cannot solely count on what he/she says; facial expressions, tone of voice, and such can convey more meaning and accurate thoughts and can aide you with better understanding of what the other party is really thinking.

5. I also feel some Japanese are not comfortable with people who are from different cultural backgrounds or countries. Shima-guni (island nation) mentality still dies hard.

6. Those so-called compliments (you can speak Japanese, you can use chop sticks, you can sleep on futon, and etc) can be part of the cultural expectation as "Odateru (complimenting or sucking up)" is considered a good thing to some extent. Odateru has a bad connotation; so it is more like "Kuchi-ga-umai (good with words)" in this context.

7. Once we start doing which nationality asks most stupidest and dumbest questions imaginable, the contest will be a draw among all the humanity on earth. There are always some people in each culture and country who has no clue about even asking a question, let along understanding and accepting there are other cultures and other perspectives, because they lack knowledge or education or they are simply intellectually challenged (PC speaking here).

8. Like any other people, Japanese will keep some thoughts/opinions to themselves or their inner circle and some to be broadcasted to the general public. Since many Japanese do not say what they are really thinking (this is good and bad as you don't want to say anything which comes to your mind) so that they don't break the social norms, I feel the appearance of ambiguity can be put in the spot light.

9. In general, the Japanese value consensus building and prefer fitting in the mold the Japanese society shapes. There is a saying "Deru kugi wa utareru (The nail which sticks out will be hammered in)" in Japan. I think this psyche is getting weaker and less prominent as the Japanese have to be more progressive, excel at what they do, compete more with other people in this global economy we are in, and become more individualistic. But, I feel it is still there deep down. I think this national psyche somewhat contributes to the general unease with foreigners (who are of course from other countries which are different from Japan) among Japanese people.

10. I believe the topic of 4 seasons the previous posters mentioned can be misunderstanding and misinterpretation by some Japanese people. When I was a student in Japan (up to high school and one year in college), I was taught and studied the world geography including climate conditions in each geographical regions (and more, of course). I used to memorize all of the names/locations of the major nations/their capitals along with other high lights of each country when I was in junior/high school years. I believe Japanese textbooks may have over-simplified this topic by comparing the Japanese climate with the world at large (which includes the tropical weathers and all). People tend to have selective memory and will always remember the easiest and simplest things even after years of no use (it is quite rare for people to brush up on their geography, math, science, history, and other subjects after they are done with formal education). I think the "four seasons" misconception by Japanese some forum members met can be one of those cases.

11. Some Japanese people still consider their mother tongue (Japanese) as un-crackable code which can be understood only among their follow countrymen/women. I also think the Japanese education system portrays Japanese language as complex compared to other Western languages (it's possible this is to drum up the national pride by looking down on other countries/cultures). Of course, learning Japanese is not harder than any other new languages you may decide to study; any language people speak can be learned. I work at a Japanese subsidiary company in USA and I came across with situations where Japanese transplants (managers transfered from Japan for 2 to 10 year assignments in the foreign countries) do a quick surveillance on the people working in that office to know who speaks/understands Japanese. In general, most of the local hires do not speak nor understand Japanese; so they are able to freely express their thoughts in Japanese, which oftentimes are Japan-centric in nature. But, there are some awkward moments when some local hires understand Japanese and those managers are a little taken aback.

[pipokun]

I should have found and joined this forum earlier...

[Maciamo]

Very good post, JerseyBoy ! I agree with most of your points. I would just like to comment on a few things.

4. Reading the other party's mind is considered a necessity and virtue to be socially functional in Japan. It's difficult to coax what's in his/her mind as you cannot solely count on what he/she says; facial expressions, tone of voice, and such can convey more meaning and accurate thoughts and can aide you with better understanding of what the other party is really thinking.

I agree here too. And in fact, this is mostly why I came to believe that most of the Japanese I've met were nationalists under shy appearances, who believed that their country or culture is superior, from the way they asked me "those questions". When you feel genuine astonishment from your Japanese counterpart when you let them know that depsite of only being a mere Westerner you have managed the great skill of mastering chopsticks although you have only been a few years in Japan, carries the deepest sense of superiority I think someone could be able to express while staying perfectly polite and innocent-looking.

7. Once we start doing which nationality asks most stupidest and dumbest questions imaginable, the contest will be a draw among all the humanity on earth.

I disagree here. Small (non-island) and rich countries, like Luxembourg, have a clear advantadge over bigger countries, in that most people are usually well-educated, and all people will have been abroad, and thus not have this "we vs foreigners" approach, which is the basis of many of my complaints about the Japanese.

8. Like any other people, Japanese will keep some thoughts/opinions to themselves or their inner circle and some to be broadcasted to the general public. Since many Japanese do not say what they are really thinking (this is good and bad as you don't want to say anything which comes to your mind) so that they don't break the social norms, I feel the appearance of ambiguity can be put in the spot light.

Then, they should learn to express their feelings more openely when dealing with people of other cultures who expect them to speak out their mind. I rather believe that many people lack real personal opinions, because they lack critical thinking. In any culture, people with less critical abilities tend to lack personal opinions.

When I was a student in Japan (up to high school and one year in college), I was taught and studied the world geography including climate conditions in each geographical regions (and more, of course). I used to memorize all of the names/locations of the major nations/their capitals along with other high lights of each country when I was in junior/high school years. I believe Japanese textbooks may have over-simplified this topic by comparing the Japanese climate with the world at large (which includes the tropical weathers and all). People tend to have selective memory and will always remember the easiest and simplest things even after years of no use (it is quite rare for people to brush up on their geography, math, science, history, and other subjects after they are done with formal education).

They must be a really bad (even pathologic) memory if when fresh out of university or back from a trip to Europe or North America, or from watching a movie set in Europe or North America, they have already forgotten that snowy winters, budding springs, hot summers on the beach and red-leaves autumn exist on these continents too. The only fact that they know the names of the 4 seasons (not 3, not 5) seasons in English should be enough to give them a clue about British weather.

11. Some Japanese people still consider their mother tongue (Japanese) as un-crackable code which can be understood only among their follow countrymen/women. I also think the Japanese education system portrays Japanese language as complex compared to other Western languages (it's possible this is to drum up the national pride by looking down on other countries/cultures).

I also think that the Japanese education system tries to portray Japanese as difficult, from my inquiries about it. And visibly most Japanese have a much better memory for this than for their geography. It seems that selective memory in Japan always works better with anything that make Japan and Japanese people feel superior (even if childishly so, like for the seasons) to other countries. I always like to remind any Japanese that take a bit too much pride in their "difficult language", than the kanji and half of its vocabulary come from China, and that Japanese grammar is almost shockingly simplistic for speakers of Latin languages (less for English speakers, but still fairly easy in comparison). When they try to deny this (and a few have, believe me - especially men), I question them on the 6 ways of expressing the future in English, the 3 conditionals, 3 perfect tenses, etc. and how they would render that into English, as they no equivalent exist in Japanese.

It's not that I want to make them feel inferior (neither English nor Chinese is my mother tongue, after all), but they just piss me off when they try to demonstrate all the time that Japan is oh superior to the rest of the world - especially for things like language, for which I have a deep interest, and when I hear the nonsense they can utter sometimes.

[JerseyBoy]

I would like to add some comments.

I disagree here. Small (non-island) and rich countries, like Luxembourg, have a clear advantage over bigger countries, in that most people are usually well-educated, and all people will have been abroad, and thus not have this "we vs foreigners" approach, which is the basis of many of my complaints about the Japanese.

I should have added a few more conditional sentences in my post. I did not mean the actual head counts on this matter; I am rather referring to the fact there are always some blatantly close-minded (or uneducated) people in each country. I agree the small and wealthy country has higher percentage of well educated populace compared to larger countries, rich or poor. With a larger country, there would be more bad apples.

Then, they should learn to express their feelings more openly when dealing with people of other cultures who expect them to speak out their mind. I rather believe that many people lack real personal opinions, because they lack critical thinking. In any culture, people with less critical abilities tend to lack personal opinions.

I agree with your comment. The current Japanese education system does not emphasize critical thinking. The typical class rooms in Japan are usually one way street from a teacher to students, not much going the other way around. Students typically take in (or are encouraged to take in) what they were told by a teacher. Debating with teachers on subject matters is not encouraged in general.

I have an exposure to both Japanese and USA education systems; so, comparing both, I can tell, form my experience, the higher education system in USA encourages critical thinking and debating subject matters with teachers/professors. Proficient debating & critical thinking skills will be very important to express your thoughts clearly and convincingly to other parties, especially if the other parties are from different cultures or countries. I feel the Japanese education system does not equip its students with this important communication skill which is a prerequisite for their voices/opinions/ideas to be heard on the world stage. It is foolish or reckless to count on other people to read your minds or between the lines (this type of communication will often cause misunderstanding between people especially if the parties involved are from different cultures or backgrounds).

Because of those reasons among others, I feel some Japanese people are afraid to engage in critical thinking and debates with people from other cultures because they know they are not ready for the prime time.

They must be a really bad (even pathologic) memory if when fresh out of university or back from a trip to Europe or North America, or from watching a movie set in Europe or North America, they have already forgotten that snowy winters, budding springs, hot summers on the beach and red-leaves autumn exist on these continents too. The only fact that they know the names of the 4 seasons (not 3, not 5) seasons in English should be enough to give them a clue about British weather.

Yes, that beats me too. If someone on this forum is currently attending Japanese junior or high school, please look up the geography text book on Japanese and world climate to see what it says. I am curious to see what it says on this.

When they try to deny this (and a few have, believe me - especially men), I question them on the 6 ways of expressing the future in English, the 3 conditionals, 3 perfect tenses, etc. and how they would render that into English, as they no equivalent exist in Japanese.

I think those Japanese have not learned foreign languages themselves (taking English classes in Junior and high school in Japan does not count as learning English in a practical sense). I think the education systems and Japanese media have been portraying Japanese as a complex language for decades and if you grow up with that constant conditioning, it is possible you will accept it as a fact (instead of unfounded theory or myth). As more foreign nationals start speaking Japanese, I think this self perpetuated myth will be put to rest.

[Azuma_Fujin]

You all find it hard as a man in Japan but you try being a foreign wife of a Japanese man! That's even worse.

Just to clarify, i started learning Japanes ein year 8 in high school (when i was 13) and maintained an interest right up until now. I completed a 1 year diploma and then went to university for 4 years with Japanese language and culture as my major. So i am by no means ignorant of Japanese culture and customs. I also speak very good Japanese. I also studied up on all the little do's and don'ts before i went to Japan with my husband so as not to embarrass him nor make a fool of myself.

Someone on this thread mentioned that women in Japan are not treated very highly. Boy is that an understatement! My husband's family all knew my study history and knew i could speak Japanese very well, but when they wanted to know something about me, they always ask my husband about it, not to me, even when i am there in front of them. He asks me, and in some instances i have replied directly to them, but they still wait for my husband to give them the answer! The last time we went to Japan and this happened again i got so angry at my husband and told him that basically, in my eyes, he wasn't supporting me very well. He should say to them "well, she speaks and understands Japanese well, so why don't you ask her, not me?" but he said to say that would be very impolite, especially as they are older members of his family. Well hello but i'm his family too!

At other times we have visited his former colleagues and most of the time they ignore me. I have only experienced one time where the guy engaged in conversation (in japanese) with me. They talk about me like i don't exist. I also was expected to stay at home with the in-laws while my husband went out for drinks with his friends. In my country (australia) wives go out with their husbands for drinks with the friends, we don't get shut away in the closet at home like a hermit.

I also hate the thing in Japan where when you sit next to someone on the train, they get up and move. My husband says it's because i'm non-japanese and they can't speak english and they are afraid i might speak to them and they won't be able to understand or respond. Is it really that scary?? I've sat next to Chinese people or non-Australians in china, and i didn't feel scared even though i don't speak chinese! Just because i sit next to someone doesn't mean i want to talk to them. What kind of weirdo do you take me for? I'm no stalker!

I have a lot of criticisms of Japanese people and not only in Japan. Especially when they come to my country i feel very annoyed. They seem very rude, especially in supermarkets, they do not say excuse me when they want to get past, they just squeeze past me, and if they knock me or step on my toe, they never say sorry. They might not speak english, even if they don't, would it hurt to just acknowledge you stepped on my toe? I don't think it's so hard.

I also find alot of Japanese tourists, especially when travelling to tourist destinations ignore the rules either because they can't understand, or they just can't be bothered and are too busy talking. I was on the ferry to rottnest island and the captain told us explicitly to stay seated until the ferry had docked. As soon as the ferry was near to docking all the Japanese stood up and rushed to the exits, but because the ferry was still rocking some of them fell over and hurt themselves, then blamed the ferry people, when in fact it was their fault because they didn't listen. There are so many instances like this, and i'm not out to get the Japanese, because half my family are Japanese now, and i'm married to one, but i guess i just am more aware of how annoying and ignorant these people are. God forbid if i ever have to live in Japan, which is likely, as my husband is the first and only son (meaning he has to look after his parents)! I know that i would hate living in Japan full-time. They are so backwards. With all their technological advances, my mother in law doesn't even have a bath/shower or even an oven!

Anyways, that's my rant. But you guys have it easy. At least they are speaking to you if even only about chopsticks! I get totally ignored!

[FrustratedDave]

You all find it hard as a man in Japan but you try being a foreign wife of a Japanese man! That's even worse.
Just to clarify, i started learning Japanes ein year 8 in high school (when i was 13) and maintained an interest right up until now. I completed a 1 year diploma and then went to university for 4 years with Japanese language and culture as my major. So i am by no means ignorant of Japanese culture and customs. I also speak very good Japanese. I also studied up on all the little do's and don'ts before i went to Japan with my husband so as not to embarrass him nor make a fool of myself.
Someone on this thread mentioned that women in Japan are not treated very highly. Boy is that an understatement! My husband's family all knew my study history and knew i could speak Japanese very well, but when they wanted to know something about me, they always ask my husband about it, not to me, even when i am there in front of them. He asks me, and in some instances i have replied directly to them, but they still wait for my husband to give them the answer! The last time we went to Japan and this happened again i got so angry at my husband and told him that basically, in my eyes, he wasn't supporting me very well. He should say to them "well, she speaks and understands Japanese well, so why don't you ask her, not me?" but he said to say that would be very impolite, especially as they are older members of his family. Well hello but i'm his family too!
At other times we have visited his former colleagues and most of the time they ignore me. I have only experienced one time where the guy engaged in conversation (in japanese) with me. They talk about me like i don't exist. I also was expected to stay at home with the in-laws while my husband went out for drinks with his friends. In my country (australia) wives go out with their husbands for drinks with the friends, we don't get shut away in the closet at home like a hermit.
I also hate the thing in Japan where when you sit next to someone on the train, they get up and move. My husband says it's because i'm non-japanese and they can't speak english and they are afraid i might speak to them and they won't be able to understand or respond. Is it really that scary?? I've sat next to Chinese people or non-Australians in china, and i didn't feel scared even though i don't speak chinese! Just because i sit next to someone doesn't mean i want to talk to them. What kind of weirdo do you take me for? I'm no stalker!
I have a lot of criticisms of Japanese people and not only in Japan. Especially when they come to my country i feel very annoyed. They seem very rude, especially in supermarkets, they do not say excuse me when they want to get past, they just squeeze past me, and if they knock me or step on my toe, they never say sorry. They might not speak english, even if they don't, would it hurt to just acknowledge you stepped on my toe? I don't think it's so hard.
I also find alot of Japanese tourists, especially when travelling to tourist destinations ignore the rules either because they can't understand, or they just can't be bothered and are too busy talking. I was on the ferry to rottnest island and the captain told us explicitly to stay seated until the ferry had docked. As soon as the ferry was near to docking all the Japanese stood up and rushed to the exits, but because the ferry was still rocking some of them fell over and hurt themselves, then blamed the ferry people, when in fact it was their fault because they didn't listen. There are so many instances like this, and i'm not out to get the Japanese, because half my family are Japanese now, and i'm married to one, but i guess i just am more aware of how annoying and ignorant these people are. God forbid if i ever have to live in Japan, which is likely, as my husband is the first and only son (meaning he has to look after his parents)! I know that i would hate living in Japan full-time. They are so backwards. With all their technological advances, my mother in law doesn't even have a bath/shower or even an oven!
Anyways, that's my rant. But you guys have it easy. At least they are speaking to you if even only about chopsticks! I get totally ignored!

Male or female, things are difficult for any foriegner living in Japan in a situation like you described.

All I can say is you have a lot to learn. You can study the culture all you want and still not even come close to understanding it. It doesn't sound like you want to even try to be accepted in this culture, but if you do you need to throw out all of your values and what you think is common sense that you have been taught up until now and start all over. If not you will always have things that bother you.

As for your family not speaking dirrectly to you, I don't know the situation and how good your Japanese is ,but I can understand why they are speaking to through your husband. The reason is most likely b/c they are asking your husband about you and not actually asking you, so if this is the case it will have nothing to do with your ability to speak Japanese well. And if you are just meeting them for the first few times it wouldn't matter if you told them you were Japanese in a previous life, they will always be hesitant to ask you b/c unlike you most people here will shy away from awkward situations and naturaly go the route that they feel comfortable with. Once they become more comfortable with you they will speak to you in their own good time Again this has nothing to do with you. But you sound like a typical foriegner who always thinks it is about ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME and has no patience. That is another thing, if you are being aggitated in front of them they will read you like a book and be less inclined to want to address you, which you will have to realise that it may be your fault in the end.

Anyway, for your many years of study on Japanese culture you seem to be show quite a lack of understanding on your part, maybe you will find my advise helpful or just a kick in the face, I will leave it up to you.

[ASHIKAGA]

Mrs. Azuma, I understand your frustration regarding your husband's family members not addressing you directly. Although I agree with FrustratedDave about his family not being used to dealing with non-Japanese or just being shy, I really think your husband should say something to them, or at least give you a better explanation why especially when he knows his wife is annoyed and offended by their actions. There was another thread talking about this very issue (Japanese people not addressing foreigners directly when they are accompanied by Japanese) and it seems like a common behavior among some Japanese people.

Another thing is, some Japanese families, especially old, traditional ones tend to take their time warming up to ANY newcomers to their family no matter if they are foreigners or Japanese. It has to be one of the biggest complaints Japanese wives have about their marriages : not being accepted/approved by their families in law. I really hope by moving to Japan, getting to know your new family better and having them do the same about you, you will have a better relationship/understanding about each other. I just want you to know not every Japanese families are like that and older folks tend to take longer to warm up to someone who is very different from them. Having said that, I don't think you should "keep quiet" about how you feel. I believe it is very important for your husband's family to know how their actions (intended or not) make you feel. The question is how to go about it.

Now, about the Japanese tourists abroad.... I guess you could say the same thing about tourists from many different countries. It has a lot to do with the fact they are traveling in groups (and Japanese tourists tend to do that a lot), I think. Poeple in groups tend to do things that they would not do individually, no?

Lastly, what does all this have to do with Japanese being hypocritical with foreigners?

[Azuma_Fujin]

Male or female, things are difficult for any foriegner living in Japan in a situation like you described.
All I can say is you have a lot to learn. You can study the culture all you want and still not even come close to understanding it. It doesn't sound like you want to even try to be accepted in this culture, but if you do you need to throw out all of your values and what you think is common sense that you have been taught up until now and start all over. If not you will always have things that bother you.
As for your family not speaking dirrectly to you, I don't know the situation and how good your Japanese is ,but I can understand why they are speaking to through your husband. The reason is most likely b/c they are asking your husband about you and not actually asking you, so if this is the case it will have nothing to do with your ability to speak Japanese well. And if you are just meeting them for the first few times it wouldn't matter if you told them you were Japanese in a previous life, they will always be hesitant to ask you b/c unlike you most people here will shy away from awkward situations and naturaly go the route that they feel comfortable with. Once they become more comfortable with you they will speak to you in their own good time Again this has nothing to do with you. But you sound like a typical foriegner who always thinks it is about ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME, ME and has no patience. That is another thing, if you are being aggitated in front of them they will read you like a book and be less inclined to want to address you, which you will have to realise that it may be your fault in the end.
Anyway, for your many years of study on Japanese culture you seem to be show quite a lack of understanding on your part, maybe you will find my advise helpful or just a kick in the face, I will leave it up to you.

Firstly, i was talking about foreign wives of Japanese, not just "any" foreigner.
Secondly, having been married to a Japanese man for 6 years and spending a good chunk of time lbetween both countries, i'm pretty sure i understand a great deal.
Don't judge me frustrated dave. I am expressing my experiences and you come on here and judge me, yet you know nothing about my life.
You think you understand why my family is speaking through my husband, well they still do it, and this is 6 years later, having lived in Japan for some time every year. If that's not rudeness i don't know what is. I'm not some naive little girl, i'm a 30 year old woman who has ALOT of experience around Japanese people. They were not asking about me they were asking my husband "ask kelly what she thinks about such and such" instead of asking me directly.
"I sound like a typical foreigner?", sorry but i'm not a foreigner, i'm a family member. And just to clarify, i get on with my mother and father in law very well, in fact we speak on the phone every week and they often want to talk to me INSTEAD of their own son. So before you go judging people you should get the facts. If i was an unlikeable, just another irritating foreigner, do you think they would have accepted me like this? I don't think so. If i was all about me me me, do you think they would want to have anything to do with me? I don't think so! In fact i got a note from them about two weeks ago thanking me for everything i had done for them over the years and for always thinking about them so much.
Your comments are not a kick in the face or education because i don't need either. I think it's just another comment by a small-minded insecure individual who feels the need to pick on other people's situations to make themselves feel better.
As you're a man you would have no idea what it's like to be a woman in japan, let alone a foreign wife, so you can see it objectively but not subjectively so you really have no idea the emotional side of what i am talking about.
However, i have quite a few friends in Japan who are aussie/american women married to japanese guys and they all have the same problems as me, so either we are just a bunch of whingeing ignoramases, or the phenomenon is real.

[Chidoriashi]

I know that i would hate living in Japan full-time. They are so backwards. With all their technological advances, my mother in law doesn't even have a bath/shower or even an oven!

Azuma> It's comments like these that are leading people to believe you are ignorant to Japanese culture. Anybody who has spent some time here would know that Japanese typically don't have ovens like in the west. Why? because it is not something that typically plays a big role in Japanese cooking. I would think you would know that. Anyway, this shows that you are judging them from your own cultural context. They don't do things like I do so that makes them backwards... You cannot possibly hope to get along well in Japan with that attitude.

And saying that Japan is so technologically advanced sounds like a fairly ignorant foreigners stereotypical image of Japan.

Well it is fine to rant about your problems, all foreigners have them here, but like I said before, a little patience and trying to see things from a Japanese point of view would help you a lot I think.

[Pachipro]

Azuma_Fujin, there is a woman on JREF who has been a member for many years by the name of kirei_na_me who has been married to a Japanese man for about ten years now and has two children. Although she has never been to Japan she received a visit from her husbands parents about three years ago and explained her anxiousness at their visit and what the outcome was. She also has posted on the various frustrations she has felt in being married to a Japanese man. I think you should click on the link and explore some of her posts. It may offer insight and I believe you will have a lot in common with her. Maybe she will post a comment on this thread if she sees it.

There is also another person married to a Japanese man by the name of Goldiegirl who has also expressed her feelings in various threads. Athough she has not been on in a while, she will probably post if she sees this thread. We sure do need more threads/posts dealing with foreign womens' feelings, frustrations, happiness, etc, in being married to Japanese men as it would be educational for all I believe as we all know too well the foreign male perspective. I believe you will have alot in common with both women.

Pachipro, i just want to reply to you first, yes i believe in when in rome do as the romans do, so my father-in-law when he comes here should wait until everyone is served before starting to eat, that is the way it is done here, or in my family at least, and around my friends houses.

I agree to an extent in that they should follow the custom of the country they are visiting, but can they? Are they flexible enough to comply and do they understand the phrase "When in Rome...." or is that just a western concept? And why shoud they be expected to when they are visiting a "family member"?

In my own case, my in-laws never visited the US as my father-in-law passed away about 13 years ago and he so much wanted to visit and my mother-in-law will never visit alone. However, were they to visit I wouldn't change anything and we would eat at the table as is expected in this country, but I would also have the option of accomidating them in the manner they were comfortable with if the need arose and that would be eating at the coffee table on the floor and putting mattresses on the floor if it made them more comfortable to sleep. And of course the father would always be served first because I am a member of their family and will abide by the custom regardless of where I am living.

On the other hand, when I got married in Japan, my mother visited for the wedding and she, being a large woman, could not possibly be comfortable on the floor eating or taking a Japanese bath, so we accomidated her by giving her our bed and we ate at the kitchen table where she was more comfortable. My wife did not insist that she conform to Japanese custom because "When in Rome...." and my mother, being the elder, was served first by my wife.

Also, when my mother visited the in-laws home after the marriage, they went out of their way to see that she was treated as she would be in her own country by moving their kitchen table and chairs into the six mat room (which really looked awkward and out of place) so she could be comfortable. They did not insist that she eat on the floor and eat Japanese food as they served her the food she was accustomed to. I really respected them for going out of their way to ensure that my mother was comfortable and, honestly, I never expected it as I warned my mother to be prepared to eat on the floor as that was they way they did it in their house. I was quite shocked to see the kitchen table set up in that room with chairs and all! Also, being the guest, she was served first and my father-in-law even poured her beer which really took me by surprise! My mother was treated like a queen by my in-laws and I had to take a step back and admire and respect them for what they did as it was a complete surprise and totally unexpected.

Now, had I been married to a different Japanese woman would the outcome have been the same? I honestly don't know. I can only relate what I have experienced as it may have completely different with another woman and her family.

This may be an isolated case, but I don't know. My in-laws knew no English and nothing of western culture save for what they learned in the short time from my wife and I. However, with translation on our part, they all had a wonderful time and really bonded. I even had to express my surprise to my own mother when she said, "I thought you said I had to eat on the floor!"

The point here, I guess, is flexibility in treating people as a member of the family no matter what country you are residing in; from both sides. And, since you mentioned that you are a member of their family now, I believe you should treat them with the respect of a family member even if that means serving the father first and having the option of them eating and sleeping on the floor if that is what they are more comfortable with. Besides, if you did that when they visited you, they, as well as your husband, may just have a newfound respect for you in that you treated them as family members and not as foreigners visiting a foreign country and house. That, I believe, would do wonders in cementing your relationship I would hope. But who knows? No two families are alike and what worked for me and the way my mother was treated, may be a whole different story for another. I just wanted to share my own experience from both sides.

...however, it doesn't mean i can't complain about it later does it?

Of couse you can complain. We all do it including myself. It's an outlet and there are many here who will understand where you are coming from including myself. Lord knows, I've done my fair share of complaining, then and now.

I love my husband and the reason i married him even when i knew what their culture was like was because i love him, not his race, not his culture, you can't choose someone's race when you choose the person you will fall in love with can you? His personality is the thing i was drawn to, and colour of skin, nationality etc has nothing to do with it.

Completely understand and agree, but one must know what they are getting into before one says "I do" I believe, or frustration will abound in the coming months and years.

At first that behaviour was unnerving for me, as it seemed like jekyl and hyde, but my husband reassured me that it was just as annoying for him. He loves australia and he loves the free life and the way of life and going back to japan is a nightmare for him because he has many obligations to fulfil while he is there. The only reason we go back is for his friends and family, if they didn't live there he would never go back as he's not exactly in love with japan.

Same here. My wife completely reverts to being Japanese when she is in Japan not that I really mind it! LOL! Also, since my wife is an only child I KNOW I will go back with her to fulfill the family obligation of taking care of one's parents. There is no choice. I, as well as my wife, resigned ourselves to that fact when we got married even though my wife is far more happier here in the US than in Japan. I even warned my own parents and family ahead of time that I will not be here in the US forever and will return to probably live out the remainder of my life there. Although Japan is not the paradise many foreigners make it out to be, I lived there long enough to understand the culture and language, and the discrimination and frustrations I will face because, like you, I married the person I fell in love with, but I knew what the future held in store for me and accepted it. Besides, I really do enjoy living in Japan even with all its frustrations. Heck, I could enjoy living anywhere as long as I could provide for myself.

When my husband is saying "bloody japanese" and he is one, that is the eye opener for me. We have alot of tourists coming to where i live, all nationalities and in fact because i spend alot of time in the city i see alot, and i don't really have a problem with any of them, they're all friendly and seem to be aware of our culture.

My wife says basically the same thing and she works for a Japanese company here in the US! And I did too when i used to work at the same company. Many a time she has come home cussing the Japanese and their inflexible ways and their failure to understand the culture they are living in and that she is not treated as an equal even though she holds an executive position. She often complains about their lack of the language ability and their unwillingness to adapt. Yes, they are nice and friendly and 'seem' to have an understanding of the culture, but it is their failure to adapt that really gets us.

Don't get me wrong, i have many many female japanese friends and a few male ones, and i love them to bits, i don't have anything against japanese, in fact there is alot i love about japan too, but since this is a forum, i just expected i could express my views/opinions/complaints to fellow experiencers here.

Please feel free to express your views/opinions/complaints here as there are many here who will sympathize with you and share like experiences and frustrations. Also, there are a few who will debate you and hold you to task if they disagree with you as there are many here who have been living in Japan for many years and have much to share and discuss. After all, if we all agreed it wouldn't be a forum now would it?

I hope you stick around and share your opinions.

[Azuma_Fujin]

Azuma> It's comments like these that are leading people to believe you are ignorant to Japanese culture. Anybody who has spent some time here would know that Japanese typically don't have ovens like in the west. Why? because it is not something that typically plays a big role in Japanese cooking. I would think you would know that. Anyway, this shows that you are judging them from your own cultural context. They don't do things like I do so that makes them backwards... You cannot possibly hope to get along well in Japan with that attitude.
And saying that Japan is so technologically advanced sounds like a fairly ignorant foreigners stereotypical image of Japan.
Well it is fine to rant about your problems, all foreigners have them here, but like I said before, a little patience and trying to see things from a Japanese point of view would help you a lot I think.

Hi chidoriashi,

the reason i said they are so behind is that my mother in law thinks so too, and i agree with her. She wants to be able to make a big roast pork with all the trimmings like i do here, and she laments the fact that she can't have a big oven like we do in her tiny tiny kitchen. It's not an ignorant comment i don't believe, as i've lived in her house that has all the bells and whistles of a modern japanese home, so much more technologically advanced cars, etc, yet stepping into her kitchen is like stepping backward in time and she agrees. She only recently got a bathtub (albeit a blue square plastic one) in her home but you have to stand up in it because it's so small. Instead my father in law prefers to drive 30 mins to the nearest onsen so he can spread out.

I see things from a japanese point of view, i totally agree with everything my mother in law thinks about it, so if you think that is not a japanese point of view, you are wrong. different people have different views.

My mother in law judges her own culture and i was simply agreeing with her. I don't see a problem with that.

[Dogen Z]

IMO some westerners have a problem with this because of their overly strict perspective of truth and non-truth (or lying, if prefer). However, Japanese don't consider lying a bad thing in consideration of the other person's well being. (This is probably the crux of your argument.) Rather than being "honest" and contentious, Japanese would rather be "false" and keep a harmonious relationship. Both ways can cause problems for society but which way is better? Who knows.

See this article: http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

[GodEmperorLeto]

IMO some westerners have a problem with this because of their overly strict perspective of truth and non-truth (or lying, if prefer). However, Japanese don't consider lying a bad thing in consideration of the other person's well being. (This is probably the crux of your argument.) Rather than being "honest" and contentious, Japanese would rather be "false" and keep a harmonious relationship. Both ways can cause problems for society but which way is better? Who knows.
See this article: http://sfgate.com/columnists/morford/

Honne and tatemae contributed to the general populace's attitude toward militarization during the early 20th century. These concepts are antithetical to democratic sentiment. A democracy, or at least a democratically inclined republic, must have contention. Without it, people become sheep.

The new generation's difficulty with these concepts is endemic of larger cultural change. They are trying to strike a balance between this aspect of their culture and the need to have strong feelings about politics and foreign policy. At some point, Japanese society may shrug off the old concepts altogether, relegating them to the past. Somehow, though, I doubt it.

[Dogen Z]

Honne and tatemae contributed to the general populace's attitude toward militarization during the early 20th century. These concepts are antithetical to democratic sentiment. A democracy, or at least a democratically inclined republic, must have contention. Without it, people become sheep.
The new generation's difficulty with these concepts is endemic of larger cultural change. They are trying to strike a balance between this aspect of their culture and the need to have strong feelings about politics and foreign policy. At some point, Japanese society may shrug off the old concepts altogether, relegating them to the past. Somehow, though, I doubt it.

I don't think most Japanese want the freewheeling, individualistic democracy that the U.S. has. They seem to prefer a more cooperative, peaceful social order. Thinking that the individual is more important than society is considered immature and selfish. Moreover, one person's version of "truth" may not be the same as another's (I'm sure my version of the truth is not the same as Bush's). In such a case, wouldn't it be better to preserve an outward working relationship rather than taking a hard line position and destroy that relationship only to find out later that the belief was wrong.

This kind of thinking can be very frustrating to westerners (believe me I know...you can call me Mr. Wagamama) but it is the way Japan works, IMO.

[tokapi]

Possibly,these 2 links can answer OP's question

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Honne

http://www.mynippon.com/RomanceNews0201/story12.htm

[SouthernBelle82]

I feel bad for you and it must be atough situation. Don't feel bad though because I think in general Americans are the same way with foreigners. They have their own sterotypes and whatnot. Sometimes they're true and sometimes they're not. Maybe with the person at the store you should just one day go in there to buy what you need and than talk to him in Japanese and just be polite and ask how they're doing etc and the basic common polite things. And with the police it seems they go to the person who is the most "out of place" person whether by their actions, looks etc. Even though it may make you feel bad you also have to remember their jobs but definitley speak Japanese to them too since you seem to be fine in it. I hope some of this works for you! Just my friendly advice.

[GodEmperorLeto]

Don't feel bad though because I think in general Americans are the same way with foreigners.

Japan doesn't have an ACLU that can further political agendas by helping foreigners hassled by cops sue for "profiling" and discrimination. Nor are there gigantic protests for "illegal immigrant" rights. Japanese treatment of foreigners is a heck of a lot more consistent that the Americans. In Japan and America, you'll have people treating foreigners like crap. In America, though, there are a hundred ways to scream out your displeasure, and get a lot of journalists, lawyers, and liberal pundits on your side.

[Otenba]

Maciamo, what I missed in your post is how you treat and talk to the Japanese people you describe. Because, although I have only spent 6 or 7 weeks in total in Japan, I cannot confirm this for people I have actually interacted with (by which I mean, talked to with more than the few words you say at the conbini and proving that I'm capable of conversation - which "Hai, onegaishimasu" in reply to "Atatamemasuka?" is not sufficient for).

As for the happy "thanks and come again", isn't it just as much as a programmed line as the happy "Next is... Yokohama! Yokohama!"? That recorded voice sounds so happy everytime, it makes me want to cry tears of joy. Still, it's fake and the voice lady can't be that happy about a train approaching a station..?
Who knows, maybe the less fake-enthousiastic phrases (thanks, bye, welcome,..) toward foreigners are because the Japanese simply don't expect you to understand them anyways or maybe, and they might jus be right, they don't think shopkeepers are as friendly in your own country. I mean, here in Belgium, more than a friendly "Bye" isn't to be expected either. Or maybe it's because they think they may be free drop the fake happiness in front of a foreigner who wouldn't expect it anyways?
Whichever it is, don't take it negatively. Japanese = humans. And humans like to put a wall between themselves and others, and maybe the Japanese make just a bit thicker walls. Many walls can be broken or climbed over though.

As for Japanese treating me "coldly" or like the case of the women who stepped on your foot... Yeah, maybe they don't expect me to understand Japanese anyways.
But when I say "Nihongo de ii 'ssuyo" or when I apply typical Japanese gestures to small things like "Suimasen!" + head bow, they get quite genuinely happy and that was often, in my experience, the beginning of a looooooooong conversation, taking each-other home, treating each-other to meals and more.
You haven't mentioned much about taking the initiative in speaking Japanese to any of the people you said treated you coldly. One Japanese guy I met in Osaka told me he had at first been afraid to talk to me because he thought I might not understand him and even send him for a walk. But once he realized we could speak Japanese, which I initiated, he spent the rest of my time in Osaka with me.
To sum it up, the Japanese that I took the initiative in showing that my conversation skills were beyond tourist level, have all dropped the keigo quite quickly and we were all soon chattering like long-time friends about the most private of things.

Look, when I go to Israel, shame on me, I can't speak Hebrew. If someone there addresses me in Hebrew or very poor English, I don't know what to reply cause I don't know what they said anyways. As sorry as I may be in such cases, conversation's over. No mutual comprehension = no communication, it's as simple as that, and many, many Japanese people don't expect you to speak much of their language and have little confidence in their own English skills, so they may avoid conversations they deem hopeless for lack of understanding one-another.
So in short, the conversations I had with Japanese people after breaking some ice, were among the greatest I ever had. Making them feel at ease and like they don't have to put on an act, is a good thing, just don't be explicit about it.

I apply the rule: if they don't smell of evil/false niceness, don't search for any. Be nice and take the chat as far as they let you, and if they start quieting down, you probably went too far, but if they can't stop talking and listening to you, you're doing great. Believe in kindness when it's offered to you.
Maybe the Japanese are said to be two-faced but unless I smell this two-facedness, which I am capable of, I want to take their friendliness to be genuine. Why look for negativity when it's not flying in your face?

[uchimizu]

I would completly agree with you. Most japanese people are afraid of speaking to foreigners who do not speak japanese. However, I also had great conversation with Japanese people, and some people met at random actually became real friends.

Look, when I go to Israel, shame on me, I can't speak Hebrew. If someone there addresses me in Hebrew or very poor English, I don't know what to reply cause I don't know what they said anyways. As sorry as I may be in such cases, conversation's over. No mutual comprehension = no communication, it's as simple as that, and many, many Japanese people don't expect you to speak much of their language and have little confidence in their own English skills, so they may avoid conversations they deem hopeless for lack of understanding one-another.
So in short, the conversations I had with Japanese people after breaking some ice, were among the greatest I ever had. Making them feel at ease and like they don't have to put on an act, is a good thing, just don't be explicit about it.
I apply the rule: if they don't smell of evil/false niceness, don't search for any. Be nice and take the chat as far as they let you, and if they start quieting down, you probably went too far, but if they can't stop talking and listening to you, you're doing great. Believe in kindness when it's offered to you.

[FrustratedDave]

I would completly agree with you. Most japanese people are afraid of speaking to foreigners who do not speak japanese. However, I also had great conversation with Japanese people, and some people met at random actually became real friends.

And that is where it ends , at conversations. You really need to be on the same level as someone else before you can be accepted as part of the group. Of corse it is not impossible but it takes avery long time gain someones trust.

[alantin]

It is funny how many japanese react to foreigners. I see it as a sign of that they aren't really used to seeing them. The first time I saw a chinese guy (or a black guy or an arab or what ever..) I must have stared at them like many japanese stared at me in Japan.
I too got annoyed at all the standard questions pretty fast but I really remember some hilarious scenes too.

A kind on a street pointed me with his finger and shouted "amerika-jin, amerika-jin", I said "chigau! Finrando-jin da!", but he just kept shouting that. In the end I pointed him with my finger and yelled "nihon-jin, nihon-jin". It became a yelling contest!
That felt really strange!


Btw: How about answering "okagesama de. Sochira koso, ohashi ojouzu desu ne" when getting complimented on your skill with the hashi for the n'th time!

[Otenba]

LOL @ that anecdote! Reminds me of a dude in Akita City:
"Amerikajin desuka?"
"Ano, berugiijin desu."
"Berugii? Minnesota no?"
Oh my... Yes, Belgium so is in Minnesota.

One occasion of VERY!! quickly broken ice was the 5th of this month in Yokosuka, before Kubozuka's party. Most Japanese I manage to break some ice with, do stay polite despite becoming more sincere, but one dude asked me why I won't just go and address THE Yosuke Kubozuka, and I said:
"Hanashikaketaikedo, nanka yuukidasenakute..."
("I wanna address him, but I don't have the courage")
"Teretenno?"
("You shy?")
"...un..."
("Yup")
And he yelled (and smacked me): "Kawaii toko annja, kono yaro!"
("You can be cute after all, you bastard!")
That was HILARIOUS! It may be rude for Japanese standards, but I just love this kind of familiarity. I hate running into ice all the time and he mercilessly smashed it with a sledgehammer

But that's something I noticed about the local reggae scene. They seem to be a lot warmer and sociable than the people I met at eg Visual Kei or other rock events. At reggae events, people tend to try and drag me along for a drink and stuff, while at VK events, I find myself stared at, but never talked to. Reggae. One luv. LOL.

As for remarks like the hashi thing, I think they're funny but I've had my jokes misunderstood and taken as offensive many times, so I try to stay serious or make only jokes totally unrelated to the person I'm talking to.
Like, I was talking to that girl/woman, and she mentioned Kubozuka liked fishing and she liked it too, but wouldn't eat the fish, just enjoy catching it. I said, half-kidding: "Tada no sakanagoroshi jan" and she flinched and apologized. Didn't mean for her to take it that harshly.