PG-rated : 40 reasons to think that the Japanese are superficial

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, I enjoyed reading your links and the entire forum regarding your original post. I would have to say I agree with most of what you wrote.

Thanks. Glad to see that people who have experienced Japan like me also agree with my observations.

Perhaps an NPO which could collectively add a collaborative effort among industrialized nations to integrate Japan into your mode of thought? ... just rambling.. but you might find this link interesting ... http://www.usajapan.org/PDF/051004_n...cs_summary.pdf

Thanks for the link and advice.

P.S. If you believe in immorality, how could you not believe in God? ... Just a thought

Do I believe in immortality ?

[aha yes]

Maciamo,
Some of the OP is kind of funny, and I take it with the grain of salt you prescribed. Here's my reaction:

A whooole lot of the list could be said about many other countries so it really proves nothing about the uniqueness of Japan. I mean food? sex? May as well call all humanity shallow.

Many other things on the list are only 'shallow' when you look at them with Western blinders on. In your years of research, I'd be surprised if you didn't pick up on the very subtle yet ubiquitous Japanese ideal of impermanence. You're trying to find meaning and depth precisely where the Japanese are not aesthetically (or even spiritually) inclined to put it. Enjoying each meal, cup of tea or passing fashion as a once-in-a-lifetime experience can be profound. Shallowness is not letting go of passing things.

[Maciamo]

A whooole lot of the list could be said about many other countries so it really proves nothing about the uniqueness of Japan. I mean food? sex? May as well call all humanity shallow.

Am I guessing that by this reaction you are American ?

In your years of research, I'd be surprised if you didn't pick up on the very subtle yet ubiquitous Japanese ideal of impermanence.

In what way is that unique or special. I certainly do feel the impermanence more than many Japanese. In fact, we could argue that the Japanese dislike change (why I love it and need it). The concept of impermanence in Japan comes from Buddhism/Hinduism, so we could say that it is shared by at leats half of the people in the world (just China and India make up 2.4 billion people).

Enjoying each meal, cup of tea or passing fashion as a once-in-a-lifetime experience can be profound. Shallowness is not letting go of passing things.

For me, enjoying one's senses is never profound. That is what we share in common with many animals, especially mammals. For me, profoundity relates to using the frontal cortex of one's brain.

I admit that I may judge too much based on my way of thinking and socio-economic background rather than for all Westerners. There are quite a lot of shallow people in the West too. The proportion is usuall higher among the lower classes and some middle class (money does not determine class for me, as I explained in this article about the [url=http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=15637]social classes[url]). I have mostly compared upper-middle class people in Western Europe to upper-middle class and middle-class people in Japan (didn't take Americans into account as I haven't lived in the States). If you compare lower classes, there is probably not so much difference. So I guess you agree or disagree with me more based on your own background and the country where you are from.

I think the Japanese are quite similar to other East Asians regarding their obsession with sensual pleasures (food, massages, baths, etc.). Or maybe it is because I get my impression from proportionally more Japanese women than men, and in a society where gender role is so important, women are not encouraged to be deep and intellectual, but cute, naive and superficial (well, there are a few notable exceptions, but there are just that, exceptions). What do you think ?

[aha yes]

Am I guessing that by this reaction you are American ?

I am, but I don't see how that's relevant. Food, sex and looks are important in any culture..

In what way is that unique or special. I certainly do feel the impermanence more than many Japanese. In fact, we could argue that the Japanese dislike change (why I love it and need it). The concept of impermanence in Japan comes from Buddhism/Hinduism, so we could say that it is shared by at leats half of the people in the world (just China and India make up 2.4 billion people).

Agreed, impermanence is not unique to Japan. That wasn't a claim.

For me, enjoying one's senses is never profound. That is what we share in common with many animals, especially mammals. For me, profoundity relates to using the frontal cortex of one's brain.

How austere. Thing is, no matter how much you use the ol' frontal cortex, no matter what country or socio-economic class you're from, you still have to eat and have sex. We are after all animals. That the Japanese do not deny this but make good sport of it is a different brand of profundity than you're allowing here.

My point is that this '40 reasons' thing says much more about your own cultural values on superficiality than about anything inherent to Japan.

[Maciamo]

I am, but I don't see how that's relevant.

Well, the fact that I could guess it means something. You are not the first person on this forum to react like this (and almost all others before you were American).

Food, sex and looks are important in any culture..
...
Thing is, no matter how much you use the ol' frontal cortex, no matter what country or socio-economic class you're from, you still have to eat and have sex. We are after all animals.

If you took care to make the difference between what's important, essential to survive, or fun, and what is "profound", you would understand better my point of view. I love good food, but that doesn't make me feel particularly profound to eat or discuss about food.

Obviously eating and having sex are fundamental aspects of being a human being. They are very basic needs, can be very enjoyable, but that does not mean these things are "intellectual" or "profound". There is more to being a human than eating and having sex. The very meaning of superficial is to care too much about those basic things, and not enough about using one's brains to understand complex issues, be creative or acquire new knowledge.

FYI, I refer to this defintion of superficial :

Merriam-Webster Dictionary : "concerned only with the obvious or apparent"

I used it as a synonym of "shallow", defined like this : " not showing, requiring, or capable of serious thought".

I believe that my list of observations match well these definitions, and that food, sex, etc. are always shallow, no matter how enjoyable they may be. People need shallow stuff too, but when it becomes the dominant trait of character, those people become worringly close to returning to their animal condition (I am not talking about the Japanese in particular here, but anybody in this world).

[aha yes]

Well, the fact that I could guess it means something. You are not the first person on this forum to react like this (and almost all others before you were American).

So...what am I guilty of?

If you took care to make the difference between what's important, essential to survive, or fun, and what is "profound", you would understand better my point of view. I love good food, but that doesn't make me feel particularly profound to eat or discuss about food.

You may love good food but you obviously don't really loooove food. It's no one's loss but your own if you treat your eating experience as a means of survival only and not something profound.

Obviously eating and having sex are fundamental aspects of being a human being. They are very basic needs, can be very enjoyable, but that does not mean these things are "intellectual" or "profound". There is more to being a human than eating and having sex. The very meaning of superficial is to care too much about those basic things, and not enough about using one's brains to understand complex issues, be creative or acquire new knowledge.

Intellectual does not necessarily equal profound. Lots of cultures back to the primitives have central rituals and myth about food and sex precisely because they are essential to our survival. Nothing intellectual about that. But it's profound, how we consume life to live. How about the fertility cults of farming cultures (thanking God for veggies)? Or the elaborate ceremonies used by Native American groups to renew the soul of an animal killed for food (thanking God for meat and hoping it doesn't run out)? Or how about the Bible story where humans were cut off from God because they ATE an apple? Or was that about SEX? Are these examples not complex or creative enough? Too animal-like for modern civilized intellectual man? Exactly how complex is it to be human? What more is there?

FYI, I refer to this defintion of superficial :

Merriam-Webster Dictionary : "concerned only with the obvious or apparent"

I used it as a synonym of "shallow", defined like this : " not showing, requiring, or capable of serious thought".

I believe that my list of observations match well these definitions...

Why not? As long as we're evaluating the Japanese worldview by one-line definitions in foreign language dictionaries published in another culture.

, and that food, sex, etc. are always shallow, no matter how enjoyable they may be. People need shallow stuff too, but when it becomes the dominant trait of character, those people become worringly close to returning to their animal condition (I am not talking about the Japanese in particular here, but anybody in this world).

You ride your intellect to profundity. I ride enjoyment. You are no more human than I.