Bad Japanese manners / Where are the polite Japanese ?

**gaijinalways** · Aug 26, 2008, 16:43

I know that I have discussed on different threads about Japanese politeness, sometimes focusing on what is important such as keeping the 'wa', even if it means telling untruths that not even a child would believe.

No, this is something different, people who seem to think that everyone else has rules except them. I believe I did relate this first incidence earlier, where in a sushi bar there were two kids running around as if it was a play ground. Not a word from the owner or the parents. This seems to be a more common occurance recently, where I get middle-aged Japanese disbelieving that it happened, forgetting that the way their parents raised them is different than how some 'Shibuya' Moms raise their kids now.

This more recent event ocurred at a dance festival on Saturday. It was raining, so people started using umbrellas and in some cases raincoats. What was appalling was how some people were using them. First case in point was a woman who showed up, and throughout the festival continued to talk to her friend on her cellphone, while absentmindedly poking her umbrella dangerously near the back of my wife's head. Of course people are near each other as they cowd in to try and see the dancers, but I have never seen some one so intent on her conversation for the duration of event as to forget there are other people around.

But this wasn't the worst. Two women in front of us decided for some reason to keep leaning their umbrellas backwards, at one point practically soaking my wife on one side of her jacket. When my wife politely decided to point this out to the woman directly in front of her, the women continued to swear at her, and then stood up trying to push the umbrella further behind her, ignoring the fact that she was hardly keeping herself drier. She stated that she had f%%%%ing been there since the morning so she had the right...I think you get the picture.

I have to wonder, where are the polite Japanese I keep hearing about?

**Glenski** · Aug 26, 2008, 17:28

People can be oblivious on their cell phones, gaijinalways. I hope you "pointed" that out to her. Pun intended. Let's just hope she doesn't drive and use her cell phone.

By the way, what was your wife's reaction to the f%%%%ing ***** with the umbrella soaking you?

**Mike Cash** · Aug 26, 2008, 20:36

I'd like for him to teach me the Japanese swear words.

**Dogen Z** · Aug 26, 2008, 21:07

Tokyoites can be really rude. Someone told me about one obasan on a bicycle who hit another obasan in the back with ther bike then complain that the walking obasan shouldn't have been in her way!

The Japanese have a saying, "Tokyo is not Japan."

**gaijinalways** · Aug 30, 2008, 13:21

I'd like for him to teach me the Japanese swear words.

I'm sure you probably already know them. I didn't hear exactly what was said, just providing my wife's translation. It was a somewhat heated arguement. I probably should have butted in with an "Oi, nani-o shimashita ka?" in a booming voice, but I'm not sure that would have ended it or not. This woman was obviously someone with no concept of manners.

Tokyoites can be really rude. Someone told me about one obasan on a bicycle who hit another obasan in the back with ther bike then complain that the walking obasan shouldn't have been in her way!

Exactly, this seemed to be her atitude, that having waited for a long time to see this dance festival made it permissable for her to act in any fashion she chose.

The Japanese have a saying, "Tokyo is not Japan."

What's interesting is that Tokyo often gives me the impression of being an 'inaka-shi' or a city full of country bumpkins. With some 70% of the city residents being from elsewhere (and often rural areas), this is not that far off the mark.

Sophisticated is not quite the word I would use

.

**Mike Cash** · Aug 30, 2008, 14:27

Originally Posted by gaijinalways

I'm sure you probably already know them.

No, I don't already know them. That's why I asked you to teach them to me. Your (English) version of what was said intimates that there was some Japanese vocabulary I have somehow managed to not run across despite nearly two decades of working with Japanese truck drivers. I'd love to hear what came out of an okusama's mouth that has never come out of theirs.

I didn't hear exactly what was said, just providing my wife's translation.

Just as I thought. You irresponsibly ramped it up a notch claiming profanities in your English version for the purposes of sensationalizing it. As though it weren't bad enough just as it was.

I probably should have butted in with an "Oi, nani-o shimashita ka?" in a booming voice, but I'm not sure that would have ended it or not.

If that is indicative of your ability to participate at a heated level, I can guarantee you it would have accomplished nothing.

**Someone4373** · Sep 1, 2008, 22:47

Originally Posted by Ocean Dude

Tokyoites can be really rude. Someone told me about one obasan on a bicycle who hit another obasan in the back with ther bike then complain that the walking obasan shouldn't have been in her way!

The Japanese have a saying, "Tokyo is not Japan."

Originally Posted by gaijinalways

(though I'd have to say Paris seems to attract some of the worst, both French visitors and residents).

Funny, in France the French say "Les Parisien ne sont pas Françaises" (The Parisians aren't French). My relatives always told me that if I was to meet real French and French hospitality, I had to go to villages, small towns, etc.

(I apologize for the comment, if any Parisian read this.

)

**wheehee3** · Aug 30, 2008, 13:46

On average, Japanese are politer than many other nationalities. But you could find all kinds of people there too.

On a side note, your constant whining is starting to get on my nerves.

**bakaKanadajin** · Aug 30, 2008, 20:25

Yea unfortunately.... well fortunately, actually.. in a society as non-violent as Japan's the ability to navigate the grey area of swearwords and (dis)respect is so important it's tantamount to fisticuffs. Therefore language barriers keeps most foreigners on the perimeter of an argument unless their Japanese is excellent, and I mean excellent. Using masu-ke when you're angry is, as Mike Cash said, not going to be terribly effective.

In his defense though, given his Japanese level, perhaps it wasn't his fault and his wife just gave him a Western-friendly translation that she thought equated the f-word.

To respond to the topic, Tokyo is quite unfriendly, I agree. It's cold because it's what's needed to get by in a city so densely populated. Actually I think I'm still happier to be here than in Toronto simply because despite the relative rudeness this place is still ten times better than any major Western city I've spent time in.

**FrustratedDave** · Sep 1, 2008, 08:27

Originally Posted by bakaKanadajin

Therefore language barriers keeps most foreigners on the perimeter of an argument unless their Japanese is excellent, and I mean excellent.

I agree completely. And I just love how people keep playing this fact down.

Anyway, just like anywhere in the world where ever you go there will always be rude people. I can't coun't the amount of times I have been cut in front of by an obachan while waiting in line a a supermarket, but I can also tell you some very kind people when all I was buying was a pack of chewing gum and they had a whole basket full of shopping and let me go in front of them. There are always good, bad people where ever you go, but how you handle the situation will be a big factor in how the situation will turn out.

**JimmySeal** · Sep 1, 2008, 11:15

I can't speak for other areas of Japan, but at least around here, people seem to have no qualms about making fun of someone's weight.
And now with the government-sanctioned discrimination against slightly overweight people, and a new politically-correct way to make fun of slightly overweight people ("metabo!"), it's only going to get worse

**FrustratedDave** · Sep 1, 2008, 12:04

Originally Posted by JimmySeal

I can't speak for other areas of Japan, but at least around here, people seem to have no qualms about making fun of someone's weight.
And now with the government-sanctioned discrimination against slightly overweight people, and a new politically-correct way to make fun of slightly overweight people ("metabo!"), it's only going to get worse

If it makes for a healthier nation, I am for it. And I don't think you need to be politically correct to make jest on someones weight here. I far as I can remember having someone comment on someones elses weight did not need the governmental policy and the new found word of "metabo" to do so. Nothing has changed in my eyes, it is just another thing to laugh at. Which is another topic in its self.

In some cases what used to seem rude(past tense, my oppinion has changed quite a bit) to me is the norm here, eg . When eating ramen it is fine to slurp them up , but go overseas and you will a lot of places will find this act rude and inconsiderate. This is just one example of the many things that a lot of foriegners have a hard time wrapping their heads around.

**gaijinalways** · Sep 1, 2008, 12:27

I have to concur with FrustratedDave's comments somewhat. My wife seems to think though, that people are progresively getting ruder in Japan (and not just in Tokyo. Of course, I could say that for other places as well, but I have encountered some exceptions. I have met some of the nicest people in Strasbourg, France (though I'd have to say Paris seems to attract some of the worst, both French visitors and residents). Some areas in some countries tend to be better known for dealing with people politely.

Japan often has a reputation for having very polite people, but recently I tend not to meet them. Of course, you can argue it's a very 'surface' politeness even when it does exist, but even that would be an improvement over what happened at that festival.

Back to Cash's linguistic question, I suppose "you ****** old woman why are you bothering me?" would have been a better literal translation, but the translation wasn't the main point of this thread (which you often seem to forget in other threads as well). As to the offered Japanese 'interuption' expression, if you have a better suggestion, please offer it (rather than just saying that won't work and offering nothing). It's difficult to say what will work when you have never tried it yourself.

**orochi** · Aug 30, 2008, 20:38

Therefore language barriers keeps most foreigners on the perimeter of an argument unless their Japanese is excellent, and I mean excellent.

Gaaah, I think you are over-analyzing. Japanese is not that insanely difficult.

**gaijinalways** · Aug 31, 2008, 02:03

I'd love to hear what came out of an okusama's mouth that has never come out of theirs.

Just get out more, I'm sure you might. You might want to consult some slang dictionaries as well.

Just as I thought. You irresponsibly ramped it up a notch claiming profanities in your English version for the purposes of sensationalizing it. As though it weren't bad enough just as it was.

I didn't do any such thing. I just repeated what my wife said and I assume she had no reason to lie. Interesting that you'd like to pit your Japanese knowledge aganist hers, a native speaker.

gaijinalways posted

I probably should have butted in with an "Oi, nani-o shimashita ka?" in a booming voice, but I'm not sure that would have ended it or not.

mikecash posted

If that is indicative of your ability to participate at a heated level, I can guarantee you it would have accomplished nothing.

I think it would depend on the person. I have used it in some cases and the results have been varied. I'm pretty big so my voice and body language often get enough of the message across. Just sometimes I can't be bothered (as in this case I just thought the woman was annoying more than anything else). Kind of like a similar case in an Internet forum...

**Mike Cash** · Aug 31, 2008, 08:33

Yeah, that's my whole problem; I've just never spent enough time where people were speaking Japanese. You conveniently ignored the "nearly two decades of working with Japanese truck drivers" part.

Please ask your wife how to say "F%%%%ing this and F%%%%ing that" for us in Japanese. One can be rude in Japanese, one can be crude in Japanese, but it is nigh on to impossible to be profane in Japanese.

**Emoni** · Aug 31, 2008, 18:09

People vary because they are people. I've run into assholes in Japan just like anywhere else. Just because the initial behavior "tends to be" one expectation doesn't mean you won't sometimes run into those who fit the exact opposite of that expectation from time to time.

Just remember that one person doesn't represent an ENTIRE culture, race, social group, or nation. It's my hope that one person isn't considered a representative as I know plenty of Americans who have f'd up a lot of situations in Japan due to their behavior and I don't want to be labeled along with them.

**Yan** · Sep 1, 2008, 04:15

The politeness of an entire culture cannot be evaluated by only two or three kids who think they rule everything around them. I know a lot of polite people in Quebec but some of them are not. I'll never say that Quebecers don't know about respect only because of two or three people...

**Mike Cash** · Sep 1, 2008, 18:48

Alright then, back to your main point.

The wisest and most concise comment on the politeness situation I have ever heard in all the time I have been here came from a Canadian fellow who had been in Japan six months. His astuteness and perspicacity are a large part of the reason I think time in Japan is such a poor indicator of anything other than how long a person has been in Japan.

He said, "The Japanese are polite in their sock feet."

If anyone needs that explained to them, I will be happy to elucidate at a later time.

**Crystallize** · Sep 6, 2008, 03:27

Hm, I must say, lately, well, lets say the latest month to be more exact I've actually done a truthful attempt to really know Japanese people on different forums and I must say I never managed to meet a rude Japanese, how ever they can be a bit distant or impersonal and a few a bit close minded ... but never directly unkind or rude and most are very nice and warm hearted IMO ...

**Mike Cash** · Sep 6, 2008, 09:12

Originally Posted by Crystallize

Hm, I must say, lately, well, lets say the latest month to be more exact I've actually done a truthful attempt to really know Japanese people on different forums and I must say I never managed to meet a rude Japanese, how ever they can be a bit distant or impersonal and a few a bit close minded ... but never directly unkind or rude and most are very nice and warm hearted IMO ...

I've never been to Antarctica but I've seen photos on the web and I must say that it isn't nearly as cold as I thought it would be.