Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

[Maciamo]

How on earth are they supposed to know how long you've been in Japan? You could have been a tourist fresh off the plane.

Alright, let's explain it this way, as indeed you are not supposed to know how and what kind of people I meet. Most of the Japanese that I meet are people who are studying English, in which case the introduction is in English, and they may only know that I speak Japanese after a few weeks or months after we have met. In that case, they know that I have been in Japan for x years, that I am married to a Japanese, etc. So why would it be surprising that I should speak Japanese ? The other kind of people I meet are through my wife (her friends or acquaintances), and these often fit particularily well my description in the previous post. They know that I am married to my wife of course and have lived in Japan for all this time, but they are surprise at all kind of things, not just my language abilities, but trivial things such as the fact that I can use chopsticks (who can't ?). How would you feel if after 4 years in, say, Italy, people who knew you had been there for so long started applauding and exclaiming "wow ! you can roll your pasta with your fork without spoon !" Would be weird, wouldn't it ? You'd think they are making fun of you or are deranged.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Whenever I read your posts on this topic, Maciamo, I get the impression that most of your "problems" with the Japanese comes from your mindset that you bring to the situation. Please don't be offended and let me explain, and please understand that this is hard for me to explain.

Growing up, I remember numerous stories and movies, etc., about the immigrant experience in the USA. It seems that every immigrant group that arrived in America in significant numbers has encountered discrimination much worse than ANTHING I personally have encountered here in Japan. Usually the story seems to follow that the first generation meets a lot of difficulty, but subsequent generations do not. encounter so much. (I am speaking of people who came to America originally on their own free will.)

Why is that?

Second generation people tend to be much more assimilated into the culture at large than first generation immigrants. Second generation people have a better command of the language, a better command of cultural norms, and a much weaker sense of identity with the "mother country" than their parents. Therefore, they fit in better. (Yes, I realize that there is more to the story, but for the time being, just this much will suffice for the point I'm trying to make.)

When you as a foreigner/immigrant come to another country, you have several options. One of these options is to keep your preexisistant world view and try to make your new host country bend to your way of thinking. Another option is to do the opposite. That is, to throw out your old world view completely and adopt your host country's way of thinking without omission. Then there are numerous shades of grey in between.

Maciamo, you strike me as someone near that first extreme. It seems to me, from the little that I know of you through your posts, that you have adopted many superficial aspects of Japanese life, but you mistake that for much deeper aspects. It seems to me that you don't really try to understand the Japanese as they are, but you expect them to accept you without prejudice.

On the other hand, I can see that you make efforts. You talk to Japanese and try to explain your side of things. You continue to live here even though you often find things to be annoying. And I commend you for that.

I just want to know: have you honestly without prejudice ever tried to put yourself into the "Japanese`s" shoes and tried to understand exactly how and why they think as they do?

I don't mean to be overly critical. I have lived in Japan for a total of about 5 1/2 years, so I know it's not so long. But it's roughly comparable to your stay, I think. Hearing your stories, I always come to very different conclusions than you do. I've noticed that I have fewer such stories than you seem to. I wonder if our mindsets don't contribute to this?

For example, religion. I take a live and let live approach to the topic. You seem to have much stronger opinions than I do.

Another example is discrimination in Japan. It often crosses my mind that A won't sit next to me on the train because I'm a foreigner or B won't ask me for directions for the same reason, and sometimes that's exactly the case, but I try to assume that it's something else, and only after every other possibility has been exhausted will I actively think that it's real discrimination.

It just seems that our starting points are very different and that this causes different results. Which is better? I don't know. I seem to encounter less daily trouble than you, but then again, you're the one who's married, and I deeply envy you for that.

Sorry this is so long!

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, you strike me as someone near that first extreme.

I think the problem is that there are differences between me and the average Japanese (let's say about 80-90%) that are irreconciliable, and these are not necessarily cultural. Among the cultural or educational issues is that I attach a lot of importance in knowledge, analysis and rationality, while typical Japanese do not. Another cultural problem is that the Japanese try to "read people's feelings" and say what they think would please a person from their point of view. I understand very well that it is why they would praise me about being able to use chopsticks or speak Japanese. What I am complaining about is justly that they cannot grasp that this may be insulting to logical people like me, who can only logically conclude that something as trivial as being able to use chopsticks is something worthy of praise after staying several years in Japan.

I think it may be as difficult for some forum members to understand my feelings on this, as it would be for a convinced Christian to understand why I think that the idea of the Christian god is preposterous. In each case, if the other party cannot think 100% logically, they won't understand my position.

You must be wondering : "Why does he know that the Japanese try to praise him and still get offended ?" If you wonder that, then your mind cannot think like mine (while I can, nevertheless, understand your position).

There is a second factor, which as you pointed out make me want to impose my views on others (note that I am not confronting my country's culture against the Japanese one, but my personal culture/mindset against any culture in the world).

It can be explained by Kohlberg's stages of moral development. Have a look at the link. I believe that Japanese society is blocked somewhere between level 1 and 4 (or a mixture of it), and due to cultural reasons (ultra-conformism, and group-mentality), cannot reach the Post-Conventional stage. I do not mean that Westerners do. Some do, other don't. Kohlberg acknowledges that few people ever reach stage 6 (or 7). It is not a matter of pride or achievement, but I believe that for some reasons linked to my personality and experience since birth, I have passed stages more quickly than ordinary people, and have reached stages 5 and 6 (depending on the circumstances).

In short, my philosophical principles (including logics, atheism...) and universal ethical principles (humanism...) are stronger than any cultural or social conventions or law, and I feel entitled to criticise anything that does not go in accordance with those principles. In other words, I am anti-conformist, extremely independant-minded, and mostly unselfish (i.e. care more about the good of the whole world/humanity than my own). That is why I feel it necessary to improve society as a whole, pinpoint at the political, economical or social problems in the country where I live (or others) so as to senibilise people about those issues and make them change, as I have explained in this thread.

Conclusion, I cannot accept ways of thinking which are not logical. rational or go against my principles, whatever the country. Japanese people being culturally disposed not to think logically, and not to understand the feelings of somebody who think the way I do, they end up saying things that I find unacceptable and insulting even when they want to be polite. I realise that I won't be able to change them all by myself. But if you also think that it is annoying to praised for things that everybody can do (if they want to), then join me in my quest to explain to the Japanese you meet what they shouldn't say to Westerners.

It just seems that our starting points are very different and that this causes different results.

In fact, when I first came to Japan, I didn't even suspect that the Japanese could discriminate against well-behaving Westerners interested in their country. The first tips came from the attitude of my grandmother-in-law (which I met on a daily basis at the beginning). Even after I managed to speak conversational Japanese, she would still make gestures rather than speak to me with words. I replied to her in Japanese, but she feigned not to understand. My wife had to repeat exactly what I said so that she would listen. Even after my wife explained many times that I was not speaking English, French or whatever, but very understandable Japanese, the grandma would still not listen and use gestures.

Had is been only for that, I could have dismissed it as a special case. But the longer I stayed in Japan, the more I gained confidence to address locals in Japanese (without my wife's presence), and the more I realised that this was a quite common attitude. I could go to the dry cleaning, several bento shops, ask something at the station, the immediate reaction of most people over 40 (and some younger too) was to "freeze" and make gestures assuming that I was not speaking Japanese. With younger people, they typically responded by this expression of surprise that "eventhough I was only a gaijin, I managed to learn their difficult language".

First I just took it as a compliment, but as time passed, I realised that most Japanese truly believe that their language is exceptionally difficult and almost impossible to learn for a foreigner. Some told me what I suspected the other were thinking : "Japanese brains work differently and so it's very difficult for foreigners to learn Japanese" or else "don't you think that Japanese is the most difficult language in the world ?".

Combine all these reactions, repeat them at least a dozen times (I have heard them more than that), and be confronted to an in-law and shop attedant who on a daily basis respond to you with gestures even when you are addressing them in fluent Japanese. How could your image of the people not change ? How could you not think that many Japanese truly think that their language is more difficult because their brain is different (=superior), and that foreigners are therefore stupid. Add to this the commonly held belief that gaijin are responsible for the rise in crimes in Japan (which I have demonstrated is not true; see my article Foreign criminality in Japan).

Naturally, not all Japanese think this way, but many do, and probably most older people do. People that actively seek the company of foreigners/Westerners most certainly don't. But that is not necessarily the people you meet at your local dry cleaner, your neighbours or your wife's friends. I have no complaints about most of the Japanese who have lived in the West and are interested in Western culture. These are the people that made me stay in Japan for so long.