Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

[Kinsao]

Wow Maciamo, what looong posts but interesting to read!

But somehow, your discussion doesn't seem like the logical Maciamo we all know and love

Among the cultural or educational issues is that I attach a lot of importance in knowledge, analysis and rationality, while typical Japanese do not.

Would you not find this to be much of a generalisation? I'm not saying that people shouldn't generalise of course, but all the same... well, I am not in a position to dispute your statement, in fact, so I will say no more! Umm... is it really the case that the Japanese in general are known for lacking in knowledge, analysis and rationality?

I understand very well that it is why they would praise me about being able to use chopsticks or speak Japanese. What I am complaining about is justly that they cannot grasp that this may be insulting to logical people like me

So... I am slightly confused... you are aware that when people praise you for (for example) being able to use chopsticks, they are trying to be nice rather than insulting, yet you still feel insulted because they can't grasp why you feel insulted? I realise this is only a personal view, but if someone is trying to be kind to me, even if their kindness is somehow "off the mark" I find it very difficult to be insulted, because I know that this is not their intention! If they have been inadvertently insulting while trying to be nice - like in your case with the chopsticks - I simply feel sorry for them, thinking maybe "They have no manners even if their heart is in the right place".

In each case, if the other party cannot think 100% logically, they won't understand my position.

I have no wish to argue about this, that's not my meaning in quoting you here! I just thought it was an interesting statement because it raises the question "What is 100% logical?" I think the person who can define it must be a great philosopher who takes many volumes to answer the question!

If you wonder that, then your mind cannot think like mine (while I can, nevertheless, understand your position).

Forgive me, but it does seem big-headed to imply that always you can understand the other person's position but they can never understand yours (presumably because you are the only person whose mind works 100% logically?!).

I believe that Japanese society is blocked somewhere between level 1 and 4 (or a mixture of it), and due to cultural reasons (ultra-conformism, and group-mentality), cannot reach the Post-Conventional stage.

Does your idea of "logic" comprise putting everything in boxes or giving them labels?

I am not saying that that approach would be faulty... I am merely wondering whether or not it would be. Because, although I try to think logically, I am well aware that because of the physical/biological/chemical constraints of my brain, I am only able to do so in a very limited sense. So it could be that your approach is totally correct... I don't know. Is this a functional approach and on what levels can it function? I can't help feeling that some things must "fall down the cracks"

Again, a huge generalisation about Japanese society.

I believe that for some reasons linked to my personality and experience since birth, I have passed stages more quickly than ordinary people, and have reached stages 5 and 6

It seems that you have a very high opinion of your own intelligence. Of course, I am sure that you do in fact have a high intelligence, but sometimes it's better to be careful how you word things it's like you're saying you're "above"the "ordinary" level. Which may well be true, but if I were you I'd keep quiet about it!

That is why I feel it necessary to improve society as a whole, pinpoint at the political, economical or social problems in the country where I live (or others) so as to senibilise people about those issues and make them change, as I have explained in this thread.

Well, that's an admirable aim, because it's good to enable society (as a whole - of whatever country) to take note of its bad points and change for the better. And to tackle political, economical, social problems... it's difficult... and largely because it involves whole societies, which are of course composed of individuals yet work in totally different ways from individuals... It seems like you set yourself an epic task, on a heroic scale! But I would be wary of talking about "making" people change. You can't "make" people change in their minds, although of course you can try to persuade them in various ways. Once you start trying to change people, it's egotistical...

I cannot accept ways of thinking which are not logical. rational or go against my principles, whatever the country.

I would be very wary of saying "cannot accept ways of thinking which" ... anything! That road leads to prejudice, not tolerance.

Japanese people being culturally disposed not to think logically, and not to understand the feelings of somebody who think the way I do

Really???

Don't forget that I come from a country where most people need to be bilingual or trilingual (i.e. speak 2 or 3 languages at an advanced level) to get a job (and not just a good one, even supermarket cashier).

That does make a difference to attitudes. In the UK, where I live, it's actually unusual to find someone who speaks fluently a language other than English! People actually are surprised that I speak French - even though a large proportion of the population were made to learn it at school anyway! On the other hand, they are absolutely not surprised for a foreigner to learn English, because it is expected. I mean, everyone knows English... don't they?

Japanese being a relatively easy language to learn (few grammatical rules or irregularities, easy pronuciation), I would be surprised to meet somebody who has lived 4 years in Japan, lives with a native Japanese speaker, cannot at least speak conversational Japanese - especially if that person under 30.

I agree about that; I have only been learning Japanese an extremely short while but I can't see yet that it's any more difficult than a European language. It's the kanji that I think will be very difficult, but of course I could still learn speaking to a reasonable conversational level without being good at kanji (even if I would be illiterate!). Anyway, that's another thread! ;)

Personally, I would just not waste my time and energy in being insulted and offended, and simply thank my lucky stars that I could speak good Japanese.

I wave goodbye with a quotation from Thomas Jefferson:

"To put an absolute faith in reason is to overlook one essential step in the rational process: the possibility that you may be mistaken."

[Maciamo]

But somehow, your discussion doesn't seem like the logical Maciamo we all know and love

No, that's just because it's a bit abstract and if you haven't lived in Japan and have had similar experiences (like Mad Pierrot ), it may be difficult to understand. Then there is the problem that I am forced to generalise (i.e. talk about the "biggest part of the population", not everybody) and what's more only based on my experience.

I simply feel sorry for them, thinking maybe "They have no manners even if their heart is in the right place".

It's not a matter of manners. I hate superficiality such as hypocritical manners. If they want to be well-disposed toward me (or have me well disposed toward them), they should reflect a bit about what kind of person I am from the information they already have (e.g. married to a Japanese and have lived in Japan for 4 years) before making strange compliments. To understand my feelings, just imagine that you went to France and people started complienting you on your being able to use a fork and knife. That would be quite baffling, wouldn't it ? Now, what if at least half the people you met in France did the same. Wouldn't you feel like complaining that it's not strange or surprising that you can also use a fork and a knife as you are not mentally retarded ? I feel exactly this way in Japan.

Forgive me, but it does seem big-headed to imply that always you can understand the other person's position but they can never understand yours (presumably because you are the only person whose mind works 100% logically?!).
...
It seems that you have a very high opinion of your own intelligence. Of course, I am sure that you do in fact have a high intelligence, but sometimes it's better to be careful how you word things it's like you're saying you're "above"the "ordinary" level. Which may well be true, but if I were you I'd keep quiet about it!

I am sorry, for once I will have not to keep too quiet about it as you are pushing me. First of all, I'd like to say that a greater intelligence is not always a good thing, and certainly does not make (social) life easier. If you want to know, I have taken several IQ tests and have been constantly tested as having an IQ superior to 99.99% of the population, ranging between 135 and 165 depending on the test - but it was always about crystalised, non-verbal IQ. These IQ thus didn't test verbal or linguistic skills, memory, artistic abilities, etc. It's almost only about reasoning, logics, spatial skills, etc. So we cannot say that I learnt languages faster because of having a higher IQ.

I think my verbal IQ was more average (around 120). In fact, I was quite bad at learning languages at school, and I have only really started to like foreign languages and started learning by myself from about 17 years old. This contradicts the theory that young children learn more easily languages, as for in my case I found it easier after puberty.

The drawback of a high IQ is that people have difficult to understand some of your reasonings (or even feelings, like here) and may find you strangely obsessed by things that doesn't matter much for them. My own mother has never been able to understand me (to this day), although my father understands me much more easily, often without explanations needed. This is clearly because of the difference of IQ between them. Same with my wife, I can explain some (particularly complex ?) things again and again and she never seems to understand my point of view, while I understand hers before she even opens her mouth. I know I understand her, because I can explain with my own words what she means, and she says that it is exactly what she means, said better than could have said (although we almost only talk in Japanese, so I have the language disadvantage). I can give you many such examples of me understanding a person whereas they do not understand me at all. I am used to it since I was a child (but didn't know it was IQ-related until I was 20).

Researches have shown that it becomes very difficult for 2 individuals to understand each others once their IQ diverged by more than 30 points. There is a theory that such people almost belong to different species. Incidentally, the most gifted gorillas can have an IQ of up to 70 (maybe even more), i.e. as high or higher than 3% of the human population (people considered as mildly or severely retarded). Of course, that's only for reasoning skills.

Anyhow, you were asking me whether "it does seem big-headed to imply that always you can understand the other person's position but they can never understand yours". What do you think ?

I would be very wary of saying "cannot accept ways of thinking which" ... anything! That road leads to prejudice, not tolerance.

And is it better to tolerate everything in life, even the clearly negative aspects ? I think modern Western societies are putting too much importance on tolerance. Should we, for instance, tolerate religious or political extremism ?

It's the kanji that I think will be very difficult, but of course I could still learn speaking to a reasonable conversational level without being good at kanji (even if I would be illiterate!).

I also thought that the kanji would be the hardest part at first, but it ended up being one of the easiest, as I really liked (and still like) learning them. In fact, without the kanji, it would have taken me longer to acquire my current (passive) vocabulary in Japanese, as kanji compounds help guessing the meaning of unknown words, and even creating new ones quite easily.

[Mikawa Ossan]

I also thought that the kanji would be the hardest part at first, but it ended up being one of the easiest, as I really liked (and still like) learning them. In fact, without the kanji, it would have taken me longer to acquire my current (passive) vocabulary in Japanese, as kanji compounds help guessing the meaning of unknown words, and even creating new ones quite easily.

I found the same to be true.