How much freedom do you give to your partner ?

[Maciamo]

I can see why her being affected by these Japanese morals has given you some concern. Japanese often see Western views on love and fidelity as being naive and unrealistic.

Exactly. That's the point.

The only thing you can do is assess the situation and her as best you can. Does she seem like a person who would lie a lot? Do you seem like someone who would be easily lied to and gullable? I'm guessing the answers are NO.

The problem is that Japanese people also have a very different approach regarding lies. The Japanese are famous for their politeness and hypocrisy, and about any Japanese would think that lying is ok or even necessary if it is to avoid causing trouble (harm, offence, anger, sadness, whatever). I have experienced it many times, also with my wife. She (or other Japanese) also expect me to lie when necessary. That does not fit my personality or values at all, as for me frankness will always be better than a lie, even if it causes much pain. So if my wife asks me what I think of the new clothes or bag she bought or the food she cooked, I used to always tell her exactly how I felt about it, be it positive or negative. That made her angry a few times and she eventually told me "but can't you just say you like it and made a very good choice, even if it's not true !" How am I suppose to understand that ? I best I just don't say anything, or say "I am not sure" or change topic, but lying (or cheating, for that matter) just feels like a crime to me. It's certainly as bad as stealing. From this point of view, that makes almost all Japanese petty criminals. The question is, can I live with it, being married to one of their number ?

[DoctorP]

Exactly. That's the point.



The problem is that Japanese people also have a very different approach regarding lies. The Japanese are famous for their politeness and hypocrisy, and about any Japanese would think that lying is ok or even necessary if it is to avoid causing trouble (harm, offence, anger, sadness, whatever). I have experienced it many times, also with my wife. She (or other Japanese) also expect me to lie when necessary. That does not fit my personality or values at all, as for me frankness will always be better than a lie, even if it causes much pain. So if my wife asks me what I think of the new clothes or bag she bought or the food she cooked, I used to always tell her exactly how I felt about it, be it positive or negative. That made her angry a few times and she eventually told me "but can't you just say you like it and made a very good choice, even if it's not true !"

I am so sorry for you if that is the case. All of the friends that I have (both Japanese and Okinawan) prefer to be straitforward and honest. If I do something that they do not approve of they say so to my face...as I do the same to them! We correct each others children all of the time...even when the parents are around...that way we ensure that the morals and values being taught are being enforced. We constantly talk about this with each other! I have seen some of the activity that you refer too (wife looking the other way if husband goes out) but not enough to call it the norm! But then again, I am not the one living in Tokyo and the big cities so I can not comment on what you see. I suspect it is much like life is back at my home. In the countryside, people act differently, are less likely to screw around (it does happen though) but in the city, there are so many places to go without seeing someone you know that you can get away with it more I guess! I still haven't seen enough of this behaviour to call it the norm...and many of my friends are originally from Tokyo.

[mad pierrot]

Maciamo just being honest.

There is no way anyone can ever be 100% sure of another person. I know this is generally unsettling to most, but none-the-less it's true. Of course, people can be more or less comfortable with this concept than others. Maciamo isn't very happy with this concept, I think.

[Brooker]

You can't know ANYTHING with 100% certaintly. But you can know someone well enough to have a pretty good idea of what kind of behavior they're capable of.

[Maciamo]

You can't know ANYTHING with 100% certaintly. But you can know someone well enough to have a pretty good idea of what kind of behavior they're capable of.

I would normally agree with you. Let us not forget that we are only discussing trust about faithfulness and not trusting the other person in general. There are many ways of trusting people : trust regarding money (knowing that your partner isn't going to use your credit card without permission), trust about their not revealing some secrets, trust in their love, trust that they are serious about their commitment to live together, trust about the children's education, trust about taking care of one's health or one's partner or relatives' health, trust about helping/supporting each other in hard times, etc. I can certainly say that I trust my wife for all of these (at best it is her who would not trust me for some of these, although unjustifiably). The only apprehension I have is regarding morals related to faithfulness (as well as the "lying" thing) as this is a cultural difference, and therefore stronger than the character of the individual in question (my wife or any other Japanese woman or man).

I am sure that she is a very good person and would try all she can to avoid hurting me (even if that means lying, as it is acceptable in the Japanese culture), and our relationship is good enough for me not to fear that she cheats on me if she was a Westerner. My doubt come from the Japanese culture itself, which is much more of a problem, because in case I were right I couldn't blame her for being a bad person without blaming the entire country; and if I do I am not going to like Japanese people anymore. But after three and a half years of close inspection of the behaviour of the Japanese in Tokyo, after discussing with hundreds of Japanese, watching TV, reading about Japan, etc., my doubts do not dissipate, but at the contrary get stronger with time, to the point I have felt the need to discuss it here. You will notice that I posted the article from Newsweek about the young Japanese's promiscuity 1,5 years ago.

There's one way to know if she'd been lying to you - have regular and frequent STD tests.
...
If she is STD-free, and furthermore remains that way in subsequent blood tests, personally I would get rid of those emotions of insecurity and doubt.

As you may know, many STD's cannot be discerned so easily. HIV takes at least 6 months to appear in blood tests (long enough to be contaminated), and other diseases like herpes (nothing serious) or syphilys do not appear in blood tests. We did have a blood test recently, with negative results, but that was only because it appeared before that that she had a benign STD. However this STD is so contagious when it comes out that it can be transmitted by just touching something a contaminated person has touched, and anyway she could very well have had it for a long time before metting me. There is just no way to know when someone got a STD.

And if you knew that certain cultural differences could be a "deal-breaker", you should have researched further and waited until you felt you had all the facts BEFORE marriage.

And how was I suppose to know that in any culture on earth there was one were cheating (and lying) was not a big deal !

I had one more thing to add... I've now lived in Ireland for over four years. I've come to understand quite a lot about the history and culture over here, and I have to say that I am totally incompatible with the way society works here. I am North American, and as such my values and behavioural expectations do not complement Irish ways AT ALL.

That is eventhough Irish and American culture are very close and there is indeed a very sizeable Irish community in North America. So, I guess you can understand that I didn't expect the Japanese culture to be so different in regard to morals, esp. that is not something that is usually mentioned in books about Japanese culture or mentality.

My parents are Japanese, yet they became immigrants because of the aspects of Japanese society that upset and infuriated them. They too were immersed in Japanese culture for the first 30 years of their lives.

Yes, I know there are always people who are different. I am a good example myself, being so "culturally different" in many regards (though not all) even from my own parents. But I don't think cheating is more of a cultural thing than murder, well at least not in periods of history when fatal STD's exist (I would have been much less nervous about it before AIDS appeared in the early eighties). It is usually considered a "bad thing" in any culture to kill someone. Cheating can very well be equal to murder, making it the 2nd worst crime, before rape, torture or anything else, because it can feel as psychologically depressing as rape and torture, but with the consequence of murder (however the culprit also dies, so it makes it "less bad" than only murder).

Casual sex is just that (you seem to be more afraid of that than a full-blown emotional affair). Since it's casual, she can easily go without cheating unless she's a sex addict.

Actually, I am less afraid of a full-blown emotional affair, because it would be more difficult to hide (so I can get out of it as soon as I find out), and the chances of getting STD's are much lower as it's only one other person that is involved. What I fear is not so much the cheating part itself (as Japanese say, it is naive to think it can never happen), but :
1) the promiscuous and careless behaviour about STD's. As the article said, "Japanese don't like condoms", which is a proven fact, and even my wife admitted not using condoms with some of her ex's even for a fling, which seem to be perfectly normal in Japan.
2) the lying issue. If someone is ever going to cheat on me, I want to know it immediately after, so that I don't touch this person again. Unfortunately, that is something I am pretty sure nobody would easily admit (Japanese or not) and it would be even harder for a Japanese, esp. if they have feelings for you (as my wife does) and doesn't want to hurt me (ditto).

As for emotional affairs, I'm sure that they happen the world over, despite certain cultures being so intolerant of infidelity.

Of course cheating happens everywhere. I think that French and Italian people have a pretty bad reputation about that too (even Japanese think that they are born-cheaters, although they obviously forget to mention themselves at a similar or higher level). The problem I have is not coping with cheating or trying to know my partner well enough to know if she loves me or would ever cheat on me. That would be relatively easy with a Westerner. As I said, the problems are
1) the extreme art with which Japanese manage to conceal things (=lie) especialy with someone they care about,
2) the different moral about cheating (can't sense guilt in the guilty person)
3) their lack of responsability/fear toward STD's.

[Brooker]

I think nekosasori is right in saying that, whether your wife is cheating or not, your doubts and insecurities about her are issues that you need to resolve internally in order for you to feel comfortable in your relationship.

You don't seem to think you have the ability to read her and understand what she's likely to do. Do you feel like you don't know her well enough or that she might have a secret side? I would think that after you've been in a relationship with someone for quite a while, reguardless of cultural background, you'd have a pretty good idea of what they're all about. Or is it that you've already analysed her to find that you think cheating is something she might be capable of? I'm not suggesting that's the case. I'm just playing devil's advocate to get you to examine all sides of the situation.

But if you don't have any reason to think she's cheating (or likely to), don't create a problem in your head that may not actually exist.

[Maciamo]

You don't seem to think you have the ability to read her and understand what she's likely to do. Do you feel like you don't know her well enough or that she might have a secret side? I would think that after you've been in a relationship with someone for quite a while, reguardless of cultural background, you'd have a pretty good idea of what they're all about.

I think I can understand her very well, sometimes better she understands herself. The problem is that she is quite emotionally unstable (as many women are), passing from angel to devil in no time. I can help her to stabilise and see clearer in her own emotions sometimes. We have certainly discussed enough about lots of topics for me to know her almost perfectly, and certainly much better than she understands me (which she readily admits). But I don't expect people to understand me. I see how difficult it can be even on a forum like here (not this thread in particular though) and I know that even my parents do not understand me as much as I would like. However, as you asked about the "secret side", this is indeed what I fear, because I do expect all people to have a secret side, and I also expect that for most people there is always something hidden that nobody (not a single person) will ever know if they are not told by another person who knows about that (which in those cases the interested person has no chance to ever meet).

But if you don't have any reason to think she's cheating (or likely to), don't create a problem in your head that may not actually exist.

Easier to say than to do. Once it's in, every little thing can become suspect. It doesn't mean that I always tell her about these suspicions anyway, as it would become tiresome. So the relationship is really what I want it to be.

Please remember that I am not asking anybody to advice me on my personal life. I don't expect anybody here to know better than me what to do or to find even a fragment of "solution". The purpose of this thread is to know more about what you (all) find normal or not, then developed into also knowing more about the Japanese morals regarding to cheating and lying. Confirmations, infirmations or personal stories on the subject are welcome, but there is no need to talk about what I should do with my wife (that's offtopic).