Should all Japanese directly address foreigners in Japanese ?

[Maciamo]

Once you get used to the syntax you're ready to go. There are so many things about Japanese that are so much simpler than English, Spanish, or French that it was quite a refreshing change to learn Japanese. I mean, the language only has two truly irregular verbs! How difficult is that?!

I will grant them that their writing system is probably the most complicated in the world, but that's a separate issue from knowing how to speak.

Completely agree with you !

It seems that on the whole Japanese people think that they have the hardest language in the world, and there's no way anyone non-Japanese could possibly learn it. I would guess, though, that this way of thinking is probably on the way out with the high numbers of foreigners in Japan who speak Japanese. But it does point at a trend of Japanese pride and a belief that no one can understand them and that they are uniquely unique.

I couldn't have said it better. In my opinion and experiene, French is one of the most difficult languages in the world (pronuciation, twisted grammar, very irregular spelling, inflexibility, tendecy of the French to prefer technical words even in informal situations, etc.) but the French take the opposite attitude of the Japanese. Although they know that theur language is ver difficult (esp. for beginners, who can't even hope having an easy sentence right), they expect foreigners in France to at least try to learn it.

It usually goes so far that even when they can speak English or another language in which they are addressed, they often pretend not to undestand or just answer in French. In fact, the French usually do more efforts to learn the basics of the local language (and culture) of the country they are visiting (especially in places where the locals aren't supposed to know French) than many other people, and they expect people visiting France to do the same, wherever they come from, and no matter how long they stay. That's why they will address any foreigner in French. If the foreigner cannot understand most Frencg will prefer speaking more slowly, or using simpler words, rather than switching to another language that they can speak.

The reason hidden in a typical French mind is that they should encourage foreigners to learn their language, rather than the opposite. However, the Japanese seem to do all they can to discourage foreigners to speak their language, even refusing to answer them in Japanese when addressed in Japanese.

Another interesting Japanese reaction is to laugh when they see that a foreigner can understand what they are saying between them or replies in Japanese to a question asked in (broken) English. They laugh because they feel uncomfortable with the idea of a foreigner being able to speak their language, especially if the foreigner speaks better Japanese than they can speak English.

[Pachipro]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo
From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

Well, you obviously hit it on the nail for the accuser, so to speak. But at the same time it sounds a little unfair for the accused somehow.

What makes me say this is the importance I put on member Hiroyuki Nagashima's vote for the first poll option. From his many posts that I have read with keen interest, I find nothing but respect for any foreigner on this forum; actually even more than that. This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.

Very well said lexico. I also find it very interesting that members Hiroyuki Nagashima and Yellow Emperor both selected Option 1 in their answers. I can't speak for Yellow Emperor, but we know that Mr. Nagashima is a Japanese whose English is not perfect, but uses translation software to offer his advise on these boards. I commend him on his efforts. However it would be nice to have his input on this topic as he selected a choice that most fluent residents abhor and sparked debate on this subject.

I've never had a shopkeeper ask if I speak English, either out of a lack of confidence in their ability to carry a conversation or because it really isn't necessary for the business at hand.

To smooth the encounter along, I usually take it on myself to make a point of speaking Japanese first which is generally sufficient for making the transaction work and finding what I came for. There has never really been an issue of not being remembered or of the clerk/owner insisting on practicing their English.

I have always had the same experience. I always walk into a place with confidence and speak Japanese first. If I can't find what I'm looking for I always ask and am treated with the same courtesy and respect accorded any Japanese customer. Maybe the Japanese sense this by my demeanor. I don't know.

[Pachipro]

Another annoying thing we haven't mentioned yet is that when a Western-looking and a Japanese-looking person person are together, the Japanese you are talking to will always automatically turn toward the Japanese-looking person. If I am with my wife, no matter if I ask information about trains, ask for a receipt at the restaurant, check-in at the airport, or buy tickets at the cinema, the Japanese staff always answer my question back to my wife, just ignoring me. That is very irritating when one wants to practice one's Japanese.

This is true as the same thing occassionally happens when I am out with my Japanese wife or Japanese friends. They will usually address them instead of me when it is I who am speaking in Japanese. My wife and I like to have fun with this aspect of the culture and have overcome this dilemma in two ways.

1. When they address her instead of me when it is I who am speaking, she will turn to them and say in forceful Japanese (unusual for a woman) something like, "Why are you asking me? Is his Japanese not good enough to understand? Did you not hear him? Please don't be disrespectful to my husband!"

They will usually be quite taken aback at this and become embarrassed. They will usually bow and apologize and start addressing me.

2. This one can be alot of fun. If they address her while ignoring me, my wife will start speaking English which will throw them for a loop! I will then say to the person, in Japanese, that my wife is not Japanese, but was born in America and cannot speak Japanese. You can just imagine the look of confusion and embarrassment on their faces when a foreigner is speaking Japanese and the Japanese-looking person is speaking English. From that moment on, especially in a restaurant, it is I who they will address.

We usually decide before going out or into a place what situation we will use before hand so we will both be prepared to act it out. Maybe you and your wife should try these scenarios.

Maybe your wife could say something similar to number 1 above while adding "He's been here 4 times this month and you still can't underestand him? Is his Japanese that bad or do you always discriminate against foreigners who can speak Japanese?" or "Is something wrong with your hearing? Can you not see that my husband is speaking Japanese?" Or something to that effect. I don't know what will work for you, but we have alot of fun and laughs with it rather than get irate over this aspect of their culture.

This may not be unique to Japan, but may be an aspect of Asian culture in general, I don't know. As an example, some time ago my wife and I went out to a Korean restaurant here in the states for some great Korean barbeque. The waitress being Korean started addressing my wife in Korean. When my wife began speaking English, she apologized and began addressing me. So even here, in the states, they addressed the Asian looking person assuming she was Korean while ignoring the Caucasian and this was in MY OWN COUNTRY! It didn't bother me in the least. We just had a laugh over it and enjoyed a great meal.

[quiet sunshine]

2. This one can be alot of fun. If they address her while ignoring me, my wife will start speaking English which will throw them for a loop! I will then say to the person, in Japanese, that my wife is not Japanese, but was born in America and cannot speak Japanese. You can just imagine the look of confusion and embarrassment on their faces when a foreigner is speaking Japanese and the Japanese-looking person is speaking English.

Hahahaha!That's so funny! great originality! I can imagine their expressions, poor Japanese!

[Maciamo]

Maybe your wife could say something similar to number 1 above while adding "He's been here 4 times this month and you still can't underestand him? Is his Japanese that bad or do you always discriminate against foreigners who can speak Japanese?" or "Is something wrong with your hearing? Can you not see that my husband is speaking Japanese?" Or something to that effect. I don't know what will work for you, but we have alot of fun and laughs with it rather than get irate over this aspect of their culture.

I'd like to try, but my wife is not at all the person to reply to people like that (too polite and soft-spoken). Just the fact that I mention the problem at home tend to make her uncomfortable. Her English is probably not good enough to try answering in English either. They will know immediately that she is faking.

This may not be unique to Japan, but may be an aspect of Asian culture in general, I don't know. As an example, some time ago my wife and I went out to a Korean restaurant here in the states for some great Korean barbeque. The waitress being Korean started addressing my wife in Korean. When my wife began speaking English, she apologized and began addressing me. So even here, in the states, they addressed the Asian looking person assuming she was Korean while ignoring the Caucasian and this was in MY OWN COUNTRY!

I have never had this problem in Chinese or Korean restaurants outside Japan. Even when we went to Korea, the locals seemed to understand that my wife was Japanese. Maybe that is a way of dressing or her face that looks more typically Japanese. She also had light brown eyes, which is extremely rare for East Asians.

[Maciamo]

I also find it very interesting that members Hiroyuki Nagashima and Yellow Emperor both selected Option 1 in their answers. I can't speak for Yellow Emperor, but we know that Mr. Nagashima is a Japanese...

Yellow Emperor seems to be from Taiwan.