For our Japanese readers : Things you should not say to Westerners

[Maciamo]

I've never taught like that only Japan had four seasons.

Well, you are from Osaka, so maybe that's a difference between Western and Eastern Japan, like for where to stand on an escalator, the liking of natto or the hertz of electronic equipment. (just kidding)

Maybe they only hesited to say that they were indifferent to geography. I forgot many math formulas I learned. In that sense, I can share your friends' feelings.

No, my wife and one of my friends have travelled a lot around the world. This friend is quite good at geography. Unlike many Japanese he knew that, compared to Europe, Hokkaido was at the same latitude that the North of Italy, not the same latitude as England or Scandinavia as many people answer. Yet, he remembered clearly being taught at school that onlt only Japan has four seasons, although he knows that it's not true and also wondered why they were taught such things.

[TheKansaiKid]

I know it feels insistent on me to repeat this, but I really can't understand what this obsession with the gaijin's abilities to do banal things (chopsticks, futon...) is about. From my experience, after being asked these questions maybe between 50 and 100 times, I can say that most of the time it was not to break the ice, not to make small talks, mostly out of the blue, and the questioners' reaction was typically a great surprise when I told them that yes I could use chopsticks like everybody.

Take this with a grain of salt because I have only spoke to one native about this theory and after thinking about it for a minute said that is possibly true which is often Japanese for you are so full of sh!%.

I think that because of the flood of images from the west in the form of movies advertising etc. some Japanese have a bit of a national inferiority complex. The fact that a gaijin takes the time to learn Japanese is very validating to these people. It is further validating to know this gaijin has taken to heart things they find innately Japanese like chopsticks, futon, japanese food, etc. It's just a theory but sometimes helping to understand why people do things helps us be more understanding of their foibles.

[Annubis]

I really want to stress that this happens everywhere. The key is not to get this message out to all Japanese people, but to turn it around and make sure that people can learn how to assert themselves. For example, as a women learning the sciences and the only woman in my class at times, I experienced the above frequently... not the same questions, but all very similar by men. People should be allowed to be themselves. If they don't learn after asking the same questions over and over to various people, that is their fault. It is up to us to assert ourselves and know how to communicate the important information. In a hospital the most important information you need to give is the personal information and a fe words to comunicate your situation. If someone is speaking to you in English you should know that this is their job and they should know what they are doing. The English is secondary and only pleasure... no words are needed in serious situations. Think of those who are unconscious... what do they do? If you are not unconscious, you should be able to communicate the basics... such is the case anywhere you go. If you are in a situation where people are treating you as a tool or just not treating you at all, it is up to you to do what is necessary. ( I had this post all nicely written when I was timed out and lost the whole damn thing ) People are too quick to tell others what to do. We rarely think about what we should do ourselves. Anywhays, I know I didn't say what I really want to say. I hope you get the drift. My point is let people be. Make sure you are a good example and communicate effectively yourselves. Yes I can use chopsticks, many people I know can, I like sushi, etc...

[leander]

Dear Forum Members,

I am going to be doing a presentation/workshop at a center for international exchange here in Japan on "How (not) to talk to foreigners."

I have found the ideas on this and related threads very helpful for thinking about the kinds of things I would like to have the audience consider.

As an American fluent in Japanese and having lived in Japan since 2002, I tend to agree with many of the "Don'ts" that have been discussed here (particularly regarding the chopsticks routine). However, I am wary of putting such issues in an overly negative light. I want to avoid making my audience feel guilty or making them even more self-conscious than they may already be. Therefore, I would also like to focus on some "Do's" to balance with the "Don'ts" (or even rephrase some Don'ts as Do's).

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

[FrustratedDave]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

[Taiko666]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

I see your point. But if you went to the OP's house and he gave you a bib so you wouldn't splash your food on your clothes, and showed you some children's TV programmes because he assumed you couldn't understand grown up stuff, the OP would be guilty of at least a complete lack of empathy at how you'd feel being treated that way. I think that's where the OP was coming from.

And anyway, you yourself have let off steam about the way you're sometimes treated in Japan - eg the "modem man who spoke only to your wife and not to you." I think on that occasion you were pretty forthright in telling that person how they should treat you!

[FrustratedDave]

I see your point. But if you went to the OP's house and he gave you a bib so you wouldn't splash your food on your clothes, and showed you some children's TV programmes because he assumed you couldn't understand grown up stuff, the OP would be guilty of at least a complete lack of empathy at how you'd feel being treated that way. I think that's where the OP was coming from.

I am finding it hard to see the relation to your analogy and the intent of the original post??? I have never been treated like a baby.
Don't do the following things or act this way.
#1. Ask questions about food
#2. Ask questions about the weather & seasons
#3. Ask questions regarding general abilities
#4. Addressing a Westerner in a public place
#5. If addressed by a Westerner in Japanese
Just b/c the original poster can now do all the things he stated or has now reached a level where he does not want to be asked or acted upon in a certain way all Japanese should not ask these things??? That to me me is the height of arrogance.

When I first came here I had no understanding of Japanese and welcomed the people speaking to me in English. I had no idea what Japanese foods I could or could not eat and I learnt a great deal from questions about what food I could or could not eat. Questions about the weather, I did not even know that Japan had seasons were so different. Where I come from spring summer and autum are almost the same temperature.... very hot, so there is no four seasons like japan where I came from. About abilities, I could not use chopsticks either.

Now almost 15 years later I can do all the things mentioned and can do them very well ,I also understand about the four season that Japan has, I can eat just about anything except "uni" and still have people come up to me who I meet for the first time and ask me the same questions I was asked a long time ago. However, after I speak I don't asked any chopstick questions or the four seasons question any more. Every now and again I get asked what I can eat and what I don't like, but isn't that only natural for people to be curious of someone who has come from a different culture? It makes good conversation IMO b/c you can turn around and ask them what they don't like and lets face it Japanese love their food, it is their culture. So whats the problem?

So what has changed then? Well , not much really , b/c I still look like a forienger and was not brought up here so it is only natural that people have curiosity when we meet for the first time as they don't know my background and I see no harm in it at all. Once people talk to you and realize that you have been here for a long time most of these questions rarely ever come up if at all.

And going back to my analogy of going to someones house , I would get a bit upset if I went to someones house several times and they kept asking me the same questions. However when meeting new people it is like going to all different peoples houses for the first time and each time you go to a new persons house you may inevitably be asked the same questions over and over, that is just the way it is.

And anyway, you yourself have let off steam about the way you're sometimes treated in Japan - eg the "modem man who spoke only to your wife and not to you." I think on that occasion you were pretty forthright in telling that person how they should treat you!

Like I said in that thread, it will depend on the person you are dealing with as to how they will deal with you, sure I was annoyed but does that mean everyone does that to me? No it doesn't, What I did was address the person involved and only the person involved which is the way it should be done instead of grouping the entire Japanese population as rude and inconsiderate. So the original posters demands to all of the Japanese reading the thread is just insulting and I am very disapointed with the lack understanding on his part.

[Glenski]

Once people talk to you and realize that you have been here for a long time most of these questions rarely ever come up if at all.

Maybe for you. I've been here 10 years and still get people who know me saying how well I use chopsticks and how good my Japanese is, and asking if I can eat certain Japanese foods. Sheesh. Get a grip. These are people who know how long I've been here.

[ASHIKAGA]

After having had lived in the United States for many years, people were still asking me the same questions regarding food, customs, etc. "Do you like American food?", "Would you prefer rice?", "Sorry, we only have the regular tea... (assuming I would prefer Green tea, which I do. lol). They still commented on things like my English ( "Your English is very good for a Japanese person."), on being away from home ( "Aww, it must be so hard for you to be away from your family!", "You must miss the food!"), on me being familiar with things you would think anyone who has lived there for 20 years would surely be familiar with ( "Wow, you know about so-and-so better than an American person!" ).

Like other members have been saying in this and other threads, people in general tend to have pre-conceived ideas about "foreigners". The process of getting used to the idea of some of us who have been in their countries/cultures for a long time (or regardless of the amount of time spent there, I suppose...)and have a good knowlege of the countries/cultures/languages.

While I do understand why some of you get annoyed when complimented on your expert chopstick skills, I would not make an issue out of it. In the future, they will come in contact with more and more foreigners like you and slowly, their reactions will change.

I always try to look at each situation from THEIR point of views. You grow up not having much experience meeting foreigners. All you know of them, you have learned from how they are portrayed in the media. Then comes a foreigner who does not fit your idea of one. Would that completely shatter the image/idea of the foreigner you've had in your head? Maybe...Maybe not. But at least now you know ONE foreigner who is different. Soon, you will meet another, then another...

I just try to be patient and explain to them that there are many of "us" out there and maybe go one step further with those I know well and hint at how silly some of the questions may sound to some WITHOUT making it into a big speech.

As long as it takes to change people's perspectives on things, it also takes just one incident with a single individual to cast a dark cloud over an entire country. Let us all remember that whenever we find ourselves in another country/culture, whether we like it or not, we are representing our home country and its people.

Like I said earlier, I really do understand your frustration. One time back in my college days, I came home to Japan with an American friend of mine. My mother went and bought 10 burgers from McDonald's for dinner the first night. She had thoght, because he was American, 1. He likes burgers. 2. He eats a lot. He thought that was really funny and was a good sport about eating 3 of them in addition to the sushi my father had prepared. The remaining 5 ( I had 2 myself at dinner ) became our late night snack and breakfast ( hey, we were college students!). After having him live with us for a month, however, my family had learned, I think, to look at him as an individual rather than a "foreigner".

Sorry for the long post. Please get back to your discussion. It is only healthy to let off some steam about our pet-peeves and this is a good place for it.

[FrustratedDave]

Maybe for you. I've been here 10 years and still get people who know me saying how well I use chopsticks and how good my Japanese is, and asking if I can eat certain Japanese foods. Sheesh. Get a grip. These are people who know how long I've been here.

I can make a comment to a friend of mine who Japanese on how beautiful his handwritten Kanji is several times over a period of time and keep doing it, just b/c I am in awe on how good he is. He is Japanese and is expected to write Japanese, so me complimenting him on his beautiful handwritting several times even though it is a given that he can write kanji is an offense to him? I actually thought this would be a compliment.

Can no one take these comments for what they are, instead of reading so deep into them and assume that the other party is showing extreme ignorance on his/her part?

I think ASHIKAGA again made some really good points about this. People should listen to his experiences more as he is on the other side of the coin. People just fail to realise that they themselves do the exact same thing and there home country to foriegners and just not realise they are.
But are so quick to accuse others without looking in the mirror first.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am finding it hard to see the relation to your analogy and the intent of the original post??? I have never been treated like a baby.
Don't do the following things or act this way.
#1. Ask questions about food
#2. Ask questions about the weather & seasons
#3. Ask questions regarding general abilities
#4. Addressing a Westerner in a public place
#5. If addressed by a Westerner in Japanese
Just b/c the original poster can now do all the things he stated or has now reached a level where he does not want to be asked or acted upon in a certain way all Japanese should not ask these things??? That to me me is the height of arrogance.

Do you really have to learn and practise to be able to eat sushi or be used to different seasons ?

Anyway the OP made some point about the way the Japanese should ask their questions and proposed better alternatives. I think that it is praiseworthy. I agree that I would be at a loss if someone asked me if I could eat fish. Can I, if you defy me ? Do I like fish in general ? What fish in particular ? Do I want to eat some now ? I wouldn't know what to think and how to answer such a question.

I had no idea what Japanese foods I could or could not eat and I learnt a great deal from questions about what food I could or could not eat.

So how did you answer the questions ? Say, if you have never eaten natto and people asked you if you could eat it, what would you answer ? Well, I suppose that you had better try all kind of foods quickly if you didn't want to answer "I don't know" every time you were asked.

I haven't lived in Japan, but I would be annoyed if people always asked me the same questions all the time. When I visited the country I was asked such questions by a lot of people I met. It must get tiring after a while. I don't think that is a sensible way to socialise.

Questions about the weather, I did not even know that Japan had seasons were so different. Where I come from spring summer and autum are almost the same temperature.... very hot, so there is no four seasons like japan where I came from.

Come on, 90% of Westerners come from temperate regions with 4 seasons. If you come from Florida or Arizona you are really the exception rather than the rule. All Europe is temperate.

Every now and again I get asked what I can eat and what I don't like, but isn't that only natural for people to be curious of someone who has come from a different culture?

Do you ask Japanese people what they can eat and can't eat ? I would ask people what are their favourite dishes or what they dislike in general, but not be specific about a dish (let's say spaghetti vongole) and ask everyone I meet if they can eat it.

[pipokun]

I agree that I would be at a loss if someone asked me if I could eat fish.

Can I, if you defy me ?
If yes, he/she may suggest to order fish
If no, the guy may suggest something different.
If you don't want fish then, the guy may order what you like.

Do I like fish in general ?
Ask him/her. Nobody expects you to give somebody one right answer, and that is the communication, a chain of questions and answers, wherever you are or whoever you talk to. Of course, you have an option to stop talking.

What fish in particular ?
Ditto.

Do I want to eat some now ?
Ditto.

I wouldn't know what to think and how to answer such a question.
Ditto.


About the seasons, just ask a Japanese person a simple question, "Did you learn 4 seasons ONLY in Japan at school. If possible, you start talking to your own 4 season embedded or coded culture with him/her.

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

You are assuming that a foreigner in Japan cannot live there as if he were "home". Foreigners in Japan, like in any other country, can also buy their house in Japan and be part of society, as opposed to temporary guests or tourists.

I was born and grew up in a different country from where I have lived for half of my life until now. I find it offensive that people would think that I am just a guest after so many years. That is why I sympathise with the OP.

[Glenski]

Dear Forum Members,
I am going to be doing a presentation/workshop at a center for international exchange here in Japan on "How (not) to talk to foreigners."
I have found the ideas on this and related threads very helpful for thinking about the kinds of things I would like to have the audience consider.
As an American fluent in Japanese and having lived in Japan since 2002, I tend to agree with many of the "Don'ts" that have been discussed here (particularly regarding the chopsticks routine). However, I am wary of putting such issues in an overly negative light. I want to avoid making my audience feel guilty or making them even more self-conscious than they may already be. Therefore, I would also like to focus on some "Do's" to balance with the "Don'ts" (or even rephrase some Don'ts as Do's).
I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

You could shock the beejeezus out of everyone by coming in wearing a "No Japanese" T-shirt from Debito Arudou's site, for starters.

Probably not cool, though.

In what sort of venue will you be presenting? As a businessman, an English teacher, a student, a foreign spouse of a Japanese? Might make a difference. Who is your intended audience, and just what take-home point do you want to give?

Might not hurt to read a book or two called (English translation) "My Darling is a Foreigner". http://www.tokyomango.com/tokyo_mang...ling-is-1.html Maybe throw in some related remarks to wake everyone up with smiles. My wife loves the book.

I don't think you can avoid making the audience self-conscious unless you are Japanese like the author and present experiences like her. Just keep it light. My wife often jokes about what she'll do in my home country when people ask her about using forks and spoons ("Oh, they are so hard! Don't you have any chopsticks?"). Not sure if you can twist your talk to something along those lines of humor.

[nanook]

Maybe you might as well give them a short cultural "tour of the world", as not all foreigners, they may meet, will be US-Americans or Western-Europeans .
Not everybody outside Japan will be used to shake hands to greet or even shake their head, if they want to say "no".

Good luck, though