For our Japanese readers : Things you should not say to Westerners

[Annubis]

I really want to stress that this happens everywhere. The key is not to get this message out to all Japanese people, but to turn it around and make sure that people can learn how to assert themselves. For example, as a women learning the sciences and the only woman in my class at times, I experienced the above frequently... not the same questions, but all very similar by men. People should be allowed to be themselves. If they don't learn after asking the same questions over and over to various people, that is their fault. It is up to us to assert ourselves and know how to communicate the important information. In a hospital the most important information you need to give is the personal information and a fe words to comunicate your situation. If someone is speaking to you in English you should know that this is their job and they should know what they are doing. The English is secondary and only pleasure... no words are needed in serious situations. Think of those who are unconscious... what do they do? If you are not unconscious, you should be able to communicate the basics... such is the case anywhere you go. If you are in a situation where people are treating you as a tool or just not treating you at all, it is up to you to do what is necessary. ( I had this post all nicely written when I was timed out and lost the whole damn thing ) People are too quick to tell others what to do. We rarely think about what we should do ourselves. Anywhays, I know I didn't say what I really want to say. I hope you get the drift. My point is let people be. Make sure you are a good example and communicate effectively yourselves. Yes I can use chopsticks, many people I know can, I like sushi, etc...

[leander]

Dear Forum Members,

I am going to be doing a presentation/workshop at a center for international exchange here in Japan on "How (not) to talk to foreigners."

I have found the ideas on this and related threads very helpful for thinking about the kinds of things I would like to have the audience consider.

As an American fluent in Japanese and having lived in Japan since 2002, I tend to agree with many of the "Don'ts" that have been discussed here (particularly regarding the chopsticks routine). However, I am wary of putting such issues in an overly negative light. I want to avoid making my audience feel guilty or making them even more self-conscious than they may already be. Therefore, I would also like to focus on some "Do's" to balance with the "Don'ts" (or even rephrase some Don'ts as Do's).

I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

[FrustratedDave]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

[Taiko666]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

I see your point. But if you went to the OP's house and he gave you a bib so you wouldn't splash your food on your clothes, and showed you some children's TV programmes because he assumed you couldn't understand grown up stuff, the OP would be guilty of at least a complete lack of empathy at how you'd feel being treated that way. I think that's where the OP was coming from.

And anyway, you yourself have let off steam about the way you're sometimes treated in Japan - eg the "modem man who spoke only to your wife and not to you." I think on that occasion you were pretty forthright in telling that person how they should treat you!

[A ke bono kane kotto]

I am hard pressed to find a more arrogant thread showing all the bad qualities foriegners can possibly have. To the OP, (even though he is not around anymore) if I ever get the chance to go to your house as a guest, remind me to tell you how I want to be treated...

You are assuming that a foreigner in Japan cannot live there as if he were "home". Foreigners in Japan, like in any other country, can also buy their house in Japan and be part of society, as opposed to temporary guests or tourists.

I was born and grew up in a different country from where I have lived for half of my life until now. I find it offensive that people would think that I am just a guest after so many years. That is why I sympathise with the OP.

[Glenski]

Dear Forum Members,
I am going to be doing a presentation/workshop at a center for international exchange here in Japan on "How (not) to talk to foreigners."
I have found the ideas on this and related threads very helpful for thinking about the kinds of things I would like to have the audience consider.
As an American fluent in Japanese and having lived in Japan since 2002, I tend to agree with many of the "Don'ts" that have been discussed here (particularly regarding the chopsticks routine). However, I am wary of putting such issues in an overly negative light. I want to avoid making my audience feel guilty or making them even more self-conscious than they may already be. Therefore, I would also like to focus on some "Do's" to balance with the "Don'ts" (or even rephrase some Don'ts as Do's).
I would really appreciate your thoughts on this.

You could shock the beejeezus out of everyone by coming in wearing a "No Japanese" T-shirt from Debito Arudou's site, for starters.

Probably not cool, though.

In what sort of venue will you be presenting? As a businessman, an English teacher, a student, a foreign spouse of a Japanese? Might make a difference. Who is your intended audience, and just what take-home point do you want to give?

Might not hurt to read a book or two called (English translation) "My Darling is a Foreigner". http://www.tokyomango.com/tokyo_mang...ling-is-1.html Maybe throw in some related remarks to wake everyone up with smiles. My wife loves the book.

I don't think you can avoid making the audience self-conscious unless you are Japanese like the author and present experiences like her. Just keep it light. My wife often jokes about what she'll do in my home country when people ask her about using forks and spoons ("Oh, they are so hard! Don't you have any chopsticks?"). Not sure if you can twist your talk to something along those lines of humor.

[nanook]

Maybe you might as well give them a short cultural "tour of the world", as not all foreigners, they may meet, will be US-Americans or Western-Europeans .
Not everybody outside Japan will be used to shake hands to greet or even shake their head, if they want to say "no".

Good luck, though

[Glenn]

That's an interesting theory, but how many would "some" comprise? I find it a bit puzzling that they would have an inferiority complex from foreign companies importing things there. They have some of the most successful companies in the world, and Japanese culture has really gotten a foothold in the West from what I understand. It's not like Japan is being invaded by foreign businesses and cultures.

[Maciamo]

That's an interesting theory, but how many would "some" comprise? I find it a bit puzzling that they would have an inferiority complex from foreign companies importing things there. They have some of the most successful companies in the world, and Japanese culture has really gotten a foothold in the West from what I understand. It's not like Japan is being invaded by foreign businesses and cultures.

I think that's a mix of inferiority and superiority complex. Inferiority because the Japanese are in awe of the scientific and artistic achievements of the West (which is why they copied so much from Meiji and buy some many imported brands). Superiority because they feel that their society is safer, people are more polite and respectful, their culture stresses some aspects not found most Western cultures (or so they believe, basing the comparison criteria on the USA, but knowing very little about the diversity of cultures in Europe).

Also because theories like the nihonjinron made them believe that the Japanese race was intrinsicly superior, which is why Japan rose from a destroyed nation in 1945 to the 2nd world economic power in the 1980's, and Japanese companies were set to dominate the world. Much fewer people believe in nihonjiron after 15 years of economic stagnation, rise in domestic crime rates, serious social and political issues (juvenile crime, hikikomori, perverts, politicians corrupted to the bone, etc.).

That's the Japanese dilema. Inferior but superior. They want to prove themselves superior (and hundreds of books were written on the subject in the 1980's), but still feel inferor because their movies never equal Hollywood, their artists rarely rival Western ones, their best baseball players move to the US, Japan is not nearly as beautiful as countries like France, Italy, the UK, Australia, or the US, Japan will always be behind the West historically, and as I see it Japan is set to stay a political dwarf subjugated to the US on the international scene.

[pipokun]

Agreed. Whatever you call it inferiority and superiority complex or not. Not like Akutagawa, but I suppose many Japanese share a vague sense of anxiety about thier own identities and/or futures. So some are involved in pepit nationalism like anti-Chinese, some shopaholic, and some yong sama lovers.

But is that kind of complex/anxiety unique to Japan?
I don't know why Europe with its diversified society and history has immigrant problems. Is it just because the immigrants have difficulties in assimilating the community?
I don't know whay 91 percent of Americans believe the illegal immigration problem is very serious or somewhat serious. Or is it just because it was the FOX's surevey?

Aside from US issue, I am personally curious whether EU really overcome the nation state. I am not sure. Just wait and see the experiment.

Your friend and wife must be super intelligent kids remembering what they learned ages ago. But I am also wondering why it took so long time to know the four_season_only_in_Japan stuff before they started traveling overseas. Or I suppose they must become travelers soon after they graduated from their elementary schools.
It is much easier to criticize the educational system than confessing your ignorance. Of course, I am also the one blaiming the system, in my case it is the J teachers' union, though.

[Brooker]

I think Japanese people who compliment on chopstick use are genuinely impressed. They figure that, as a Japanese person, they have a lot more practice at using chopsticks than a foreigner (and rightly so) and are amazed that you have developed the ability to use them naturally. They would be similarly amazed to see a gaijin speak perfect Japanese. I think it's justifiably noteworthy when someone can do well at something that isn't native to them. Using chopsticks is a skill and it does need to be learned. I don't think anyone uses chopsticks well the first time they try.

[Rich303]

I've met some japanese people who are surprised/impressed at what I can eat and it doesn't offend me.
There are plenty of people who live up to the stereotype of not being able to eat many Japanese foods - so I think this stereotype is not without an element of truth.

When I was in Japan in may I was talking to some people one night. One of their (western)friends was marrying a japanese girl and (I think going to live there), and he didn't like most japanese food and was making no effort to get into it.
I vaguely know someone in my local pub(OK,she's not the most open-minded person in the world),and she lost a lot of weight in Japan,because she wouldn't try the food.

I guess it can be a little scary if you don't know anything about Japanese food,but sometimes you just have to try things - I did and I've never looked back.

Also, if I go for Chinese or Thai meal in UK with my family (and many of my friends),it is usually only me who uses chopsticks , and I'm reasonably good - or so I thought.
My pen pal said I ate like her 4 year old nephew!

[Maciamo]

I've met some japanese people who are surprised/impressed at what I can eat and it doesn't offend me.
There are plenty of people who live up to the stereotype of not being able to eat many Japanese foods - so I think this stereotype is not without an element of truth.

My sister and her boyfriend are in Japan at the moment. They are constantly stared at in the street or aksed strange questions (even my wife asked if we had lightning/thunder in Belgium !). But they just find it funny or strange, as they have only been here for a few days/weeks. I also found it rather funny at the beginning. After a few years of living in Japan with little contact with non Japanese people, when one wishes to have a normal relationship with his/her environment, it can become quite annoying. I am sure no one who hasn't stayed in Japan for at least 2 or 3 years, with minimum contact with non Japanese and maximum contact with as many Japanese as possible*, can really understand how irritating it can be.

But there is really a pattern in the way questions are asked by the Japanese. For example, "Is there X in your country ?" or "Can you eat Y ?" are typical questions. What is surprising in what they put instead of X or Y. I had to scold my wife for asking my sister if there were lightning/thunder (kaminari) in Belgium. "Just think a bit before asking a question ! Why shouldn't there be lightning or thunder in one particular country". The worst of all is that she has already been to that country several times !

* in my case, meeting one new Japanese properly introduced (name, hometown, hobbies, job, etc.) every 3 days in average.

[Rich303]

My sister and her boyfriend are in Japan at the moment. They are constantly stared at in the street or aksed strange questions (even my wife asked if we had lightning/thunder in Belgium !). But they just find it funny or strange, as they have only been here for a few days/weeks. I also found it rather funny at the beginning. After a few years of living in Japan with little contact with non Japanese people, when one wishes to have a normal relationship with his/her environment, it can become quite annoying.

I suppose it could become a bit annoying after a long time, maybe even insulting. I could probably only find out for myself by living in Japan for an extended period of time.

I will say this though, I bet I would find it less insulting than being spat at or having my sexuality questioned because I wouldn't give a girl I didn't know a cigarette, both of which have happened to me quite recently in the UK.

[zeroyon]

Very interesting read. These seem like the main werid oddities of things that japanese people say to westerners when they are in Japan from what i've read... i have also been asked about half of these by Japanese, and I haven't been outside of North America yet... -_-

One other thing... not sure if its really to be noted to the list, but I hate being called and reffered to as a "gaijin" by the japanese here in Colorado. I was born here and I'm caucasian for crying out loud... i guess all japanese call non-japanese "gaijin" regardless of where they are.


I would like to see a list of "Things you should not say to Japanese" list for western people in their own countries. Since the things on this list seem so obvious to us, there surely must be some bad things that we westerners say or do without noticing to japanese or foreigners in general who visit western countries.

[godppgo]

I hate being called and reffered to as a "gaijin" by the japanese here in Colorado. I was born here and I'm caucasian for crying out loud... i guess all japanese call non-japanese "gaijin" regardless of where they are.

When Japanese say gaijin they don't really mean the word "foreigner" in English. There's a subtle difference there. Gaijin might be better interpreted as "not my race people". Sorry I can't really find a suitable English word for it but in most asian countries, the term gaijin doesn't necessary mean foreign country people.

[dameko]

Yes, it happened to me that I went to a karaoke place, sang songs in English, of course, because you don't have much choice. One of them was especially fast in one part, so I messed it up a bit, and the comment I received from a person who knew me was 'Oh, it's in English, how come you can't sing it right!', knowing English is not my native tounge.
Sometimes they just assume, even if they know you and where you are from, that you have to be absolutely flawless in English.
Oh, and once also I was told that I was not a lady because of the way I ate my soup, I just came to Japan and I did what anyone from a foreign country would do, keep your bowl on the table, I was given a really bad time by that a**hole, until his girlfriend jumped in and said that's how they do it...
Anyway, I really find annoying some of the things that you can experiece, like hearing you are fat if you are a little bloated that day, or some 'comliments' I heard people get, like you have such a big nose.
Oh, not to mention big boobs, which I kinda found funny, because I got that one quite often, and sadly, it's soooo far from being true, in my case I mean...

[Maciamo]

When Japanese say gaijin they don't really mean the word "foreigner" in English. There's a subtle difference there. Gaijin might be better interpreted as "not my race people". Sorry I can't really find a suitable English word for it but in most asian countries, the term gaijin doesn't necessary mean foreign country people.

That's a good point. I think you are correct. But I still don't understand why they feel the need to use this word so often when they see some "not my race people". In such an international city as Tokyo, it's at best puerile when you hear salarymen saying "ah gaijin da" when they stumble into you in a lift or public toilet. It's not even embarassement (for supposingly not speaking the same language), as they don't have to talk to the "gaijin" in these situations.

[gaijinalways]

Thanks Maciamo, I could have used you in another thread on another forum. I probably argued some of these same points too strongly, but my main points were similar to some of the same conclusions here, that this superiority/inferiority condition exists (and I added that this attitude drives a lot of the xenophobia in Japan out came the sticks!) .

In addition, this persistent 'we vs. them', which you find to some extent in all countries of course, adds to this 'problem'. But what I also find interesting is the 'perpetual guest ' (no matter that I have lived here for 8 years, my wife is Japanese, and I have permanent residency) and VIP theories (favored treatment for foreigners, definately overated and may include this topic's title), which some of the foreigners have been brainwashed into believing !

[godppgo]

That's a good point. I think you are correct. But I still don't understand why they feel the need to use this word so often when they see some "not my race people". In such an international city as Tokyo, it's at best puerile when you hear salarymen saying "ah gaijin da" when they stumble into you in a lift or public toilet.

But what I also find interesting is the 'perpetual guest ' (no matter that I have lived here for 8 years, my wife is Japanese, and I have permanent residency) and VIP theories (favored treatment for foreigners, definately overated and may include this topic's title), which some of the foreigners have been brainwashed into believing !

Asians are generally very "territorial" people. By territorial I mean they defind themselves largely by where they come from. This territorial trait is not based on the geographic area under a given jurisdiction type of territory. It has more to do with the particular place's people, food, and tradition. Asians (or Japanese) have very strong correlation with the place they were born or raised. One example is the use of koseki (戸籍). Koseki it is a document issued by Japanese government which states the person's place of birth. As long as you are not from the same "territory", they'll always view you as an outsider. This trait is further exaggerated when encountering a gaijin. Not only are gaijin come from a different territory then you are, they are of a different race from a different country. The territorial trait plus lack of experience with foreigner only make Japanese want to more distinguish themselves from gaijin. As for the causes of the territorial trait? I don't know how to answer that. Maybe someone on this forum can shed some light on this matter.

[kellymich]

As for the causes of the territorial trait? I don't know how to answer that. Maybe someone on this forum can shed some light on this matter.

It's a natural human trait.

[Zenigata]

Many Westerners in Japan complain that when they ask something in Japanese to a Japanese person, they will almost always reply to an accompanying Japanese person if there is one. For example, if I am with my wife or another Japanese person and I ask some information to a shop attendant, real estate agent, metro staff, government official, etc., they will ignore me and reply to the Japanese person with me. This is not just annoying, it's plain rude and disrespectful. This situation even happened to me when I was with a Korean friend who didn't speak much Japanese, juts because she looked Japanese.

This brings to my memory a thing that happened to me when I came to Japan for the first time, back in 1982. I was then attending a summer Japanese language course at an University in the outskirts of Tokyo, and among the students there were quite a few Americans of Japanese descent that were probably sent there by their parents with the hope of getting more acquainted with the language and culture of the old country.

One Saturday morning I was at the bus stop outside the University gate, waiting to get on the bus to the nearest station together with a tall young fellow named Wada who was in the "beginner" class (I was in the "intermediate" class because I had already studied Japanese for two years in my home country). A middle aged man comes towards us and asks Wada if the bus had already passed (it was already two or three minutes past its due time). Wada couldn't understand a word of what he said, and asked me in English: "What does he want?", so I replied in his stead and said something like: "I'm sorry, he can't speak Japanese. The bus hadn't come yet, we are waiting for it too".

I will never forget for the rest of my life the puzzled look of this guy looking in amazement at the "gaijin" who not only answered him in nearly flawless Japanese, but also alleged that his buddy, who looked so much Japanese, couldn't understand his "native" language.

[*Bendetta*]

Nice thread. And I see the point, althought I have never been to Japan, I've heard about these ways of them to approach people, and gotta agree with all this.

[Sukotto]

I don't know about that 1st question.
Asking someone whether or not they can eat something.
Shouldn't we be able to eat just about anything?
Unless we are allergic.
Is perhaps refusing to eat something because we do not 'like it'
seem a little stuck up?
What if there was a food shortage?
Wouldn't it be natural to eat foods that we don't necessarily like
but need to eat in order to survive?
And then perhaps the "right thing to do" would be only refuse to eat foods
that we really "cannot eat".
But, I know. There is not a food shortage. (it is only a food distribution problem)


Take for example:
lactose intolerance.
Maybe it is a stereo type? that many Asians are lactose intolerant.

Would it be even more rude to ask person from say Japan,
why they don't like milk when they just can't consume it?

Or is it more rude to assume that most Japanese are lactose intolerant
and ask "can you drink milk?" ?
I do not know. Maybe Japanese on average are not lactose intolerant?

[kappa37]

Just stumbled onto this thread (guess it's been out here for some time). But just thought I'd throw in my 2 cents on this one.
Check this out.
http://youtube.com/watch?v=MqRFBv57cjw&search=hanetobi
Kinda hits the "foreigner's can't use chopsticks" sterotype on the head.
Enjoy.