Shock of Western vs Japanese values

[Emoni]

I can't believe that you would go as far as comparing Japanese people with cruel and horrible people, if my I said were absolutely true !

Maciamo, by no means am I calling the Japanese horrible and cruel. If anything I am backing up some of what you posted in your second post. To clearify, if you start covering a society with blanket judgement on what ever single person does, you will run into serious problems. The most serious of which would be the fear that goes with those types of beliefs. You do however, get into very hazy waters when you get into the subject of culture based morals. As no matter what you do, you cannot take the stand of absolute objectivity and unbaised and claim that you are being honest on issues like this.

At same time though, I have little faith in the majority of the world's population on most matters. I've just run into too many of these "people things" to put my trust in them. Go figure That is no society, culture or country however, don't mistake that please.

As for the gut feeling, it wasn't directed at anything specific or any moral judgement per say, it was mainly a feeling that something wasn't quite all correct and set. Not a clue why though, and I want to stress that.

I do however want to comment on your statement of non-moralistic country behavior. You made claims that it is an advantige due to invasions. You claim they don't try to impose their values, yet at the same time you are missing some key factors as that they usually either attempted near total eradication of the population, or forced them into submission under a new GOVERNMENT (which no government you can claim to be based off of NO moralistic guidence, even non-religous). Look at China's history, Mongolia, and especially Japan and you will quickly get examples of what I am stating.

By no means did east-asian countries fight a "nice war" or was it "no big deal compared to western based take-overs" it was war like anywhere else. Bloody invasions, oppression and take over. Whether it was for resources, moral differences or government, there were still people in the way.
War is war, and it is NEVER no big deal or nice.

[Maciamo]

I do however want to comment on your statement of non-moralistic country behavior. You made claims that it is an advantige due to invasions.

I didn't "claim" it was an advantage. Just that it influences the possibility of colonizing other countries to civilize them (not just invading for power or money, that is very different).

You claim they don't try to impose their values, yet at the same time you are missing some key factors as that they usually either attempted near total eradication of the population

What are you talking about ? What China did to Tibet ? Justly, this is because they lack moral conscience.

By no means did east-asian countries fight a "nice war" or was it "no big deal compared to western based take-overs"

That's the point. You seem to understand what I am talking about. While the West colonised also for commercial and political reasons, they often (but not systematically) tried to modernise, develop and educate colonized countries, and tried to keep good relationship with them after decolonization (with institutions such as the Commomwealth of Nations for the UK, or the various economic and educational cooperation projects between France and its former Africa colonies, etc.). Western countries also felt the moral obligation to accept millions of immigrants from former colonies, while Japan tried hard to boot them out after WWII, when they weren't necessary for the war effort anymore. Japan and the Asian countries it controlled (I won't name them colonies), still have uneasy relationships, with many Asian still bearing grudge against Japan like nothing seen with Western colonies.

So we could say that the moralistic approach incites to colonize, with the aim of civilizing and educating the locals, in addition to the struggle for power and resources (which is universal).

[AKEBONO]

Wonder whether the named conflicts like crusades to the 'wholly land', the conquer of Latin America by spain, the iraq conflict is related to the religion ? Maby the religon was used to unify the submissed countries and just destroy the culture in order to rule them? And in case of Iraq its doubtful 'values' are the reason for the war..... Maybe the reason is simply 'money' = 'Oil' ?

Miacamo I share your entry mostly. I have been working close with japanese and the diffrences often lead to misunderstandings. Most of the european have christian background. So our values are at least close to each other and we have a common understanding. Most of asian countries (if not all) have a completly diffrent development throughout. But this makes the cultures so attracitve isnt it ?

Considering todays situation in some european countries the corruption is widely established.... well even in Europe the moral standards might be diffrent to ideals we have had. The reality is often diffrent....

Finally is it wrong to say 'money' is important ? Everybody likes money and is working hard for it in order to have a good life. In this sense where is the diffrence between Japan and Europe or other countries/cultures ? I dont want to know from where some businesmen get their money although this people enjoy reputation in the society.

[canadian_kor]

As a Korean Canadian and having grown up among fellow Koreans (both first and second generation types), the Korean value system is almost identical to the Japanese one. Also, I have to agree with Mac here. I tend to agree with the people who get annoyed with the lying thing. I'm also annoyed with the whole "if it works--even if it is wrong--go do it" attitude common among East Asians. I think people should not be afraid to speak out and say that certain value systems are "better" or "more right" than others. Our postmodern world tells us (or lies to us) that everything is right and no one should claim absolute supremacy on values and morals. To me, that is just bull. There are absolute morals that are above our heads, it only depends on which culture or society grasps it more closely.

[Brooker]

Based on my time in Japan it sounds like Mac's assessments are on track. But I'm sure there are some Japanese ways of thinking that are better than Western ways of thinking, but they're less obvious to us because we are Westerners.

[Maciamo]

Wonder whether the named conflicts like crusades to the 'wholly land', the conquer of Latin America by spain, the iraq conflict is related to the religion ? Maby the religon was used to unify the submissed countries and just destroy the culture in order to rule them? And in case of Iraq its doubtful 'values' are the reason for the war..... Maybe the reason is simply 'money' = 'Oil' ?

You should differientaite between the real reason (honne), such as money, power or politics, and the official reason (tatemae) which the leaders tell the people going to war and which is the motivating power for soldiers, missionaries or colonizers.

Considering todays situation in some european countries the corruption is widely established.... well even in Europe the moral standards might be diffrent to ideals we have had. The reality is often diffrent....

Yes, but the main difference is that corruption is considered "evil" in the West, and corrupted politicians usually face heavy fines or emprisonment. In Japan, corruption is considered part and parcel of human nature, and thus inevitable and is treated much more leniently. Many corrupted Japanese politicians have not only continued their carreer, but even reached higher positions (even Prime Minister, like the LDP Secretary General Sato Eisaku, who received massive brobery from the shipbuilding industry in 1953, but went on to become Prime Minister anyway from 1964 to 1972, the longest term ever served by any PM in Japanese history !).

Finally is it wrong to say 'money' is important ? Everybody likes money and is working hard for it in order to have a good life. In this sense where is the diffrence between Japan and Europe or other countries/cultures ? I dont want to know from where some businesmen get their money although this people enjoy reputation in the society.

It isn't wrong, and I have included it in the Western sources of happiness (along with love, personal achievements, ideals...), but Japanese (and East Asians) notoriously place an disproportionate importance to it, and hardly care about more "philosophical" values.

But I'm sure there are some Japanese ways of thinking that are better than Western ways of thinking, but they're less obvious to us because we are Westerners.

You are still judging what I said as "the Japanese way of thinking" is less good than ours, because you cannot accept that their values are equal. It is very difficult to stay neutral or impartial in this kind of discussion.

But if you want to know what makes the Japanese/East-Asian way of thinking superior, it's very easy : it promotes economic development through unrestraint capitalism. As money is one of the most important values (as opposed to love, hobbies, family, friendships...) in East-Asia, success can only be achieved by economic development.

I should also have mentioned that "face" is extremely important in East-Asia. It doesn't matter how rich and happy people really are, as long as they look rich and happy. This is the principle of tatemae in Japan, but the same exist elsewehere in Asia. On paper, compared to other countries, Japan is indeed a rich country, with a high GDP per capita, low unemployment, high education, etc. But in reality, companies are rich, not the people; low unemployment is fictional (see my thread Real unemployment in Japan reaches 25.5%), people reach high education levels because it's almost impossible to fail (see my thread Only 26% of Japanese understand their lesson at school ), and as everybosy knows, Japanese live in rabbit-hutches, usually without garden, pay more than the average Westerners for most products, and get little holiday. But as long as Japan looks prosperous, the authorities are happy; they save their face in the international community.

A little anecdote; when I asked some Japanese businessmen what Japanese could do to improve their country or lifestyle, I was told by all of them that it should do this or that to improve the economy. I expected things like getting more holiday, less corruption at the government, better medical care, better education, etc. Sometimes they cited things like having more time for hobbies, but ultimately it was to boost the leisure industry ! So people don;t count, as long as the economy works. That is how Japanese (and East-Asian) really think ! At least you can't blame them for being selfish. The group (country and companies) go first, before the individual.

[Elizabeth]

A little anecdote; when I asked some Japanese businessmen what Japanese could do to improve their country or lifestyle, I was told by all of them that it should do this or that to improve the economy. I expected things like getting more holiday, less corruption at the government, better medical care, better education, etc. Sometimes they cited things like having more time for hobbies, but ultimately it was to boost the leisure industry ! So people don;t count, as long as the economy works. That is how Japanese (and East-Asian) really think ! At least you can't blame them for being selfish. The group (country and companies) go first, before the individual.

In all honesty, that is most likely the response most Americans would give as well to how the country can be improved. Which is why disappointing news on the economy dominates electoral politics at all levels and invariably leads off all the national news broadcasts, deserving of banner headlines etc. To the dismay of social issue voters who tend to be less well off and don't vote their economic interests. If some Japanese tend to be bizarely obsessed with getting paid and about accumulating personal wealth, to the extent they aren't using it to create an inequitable society or flaunt it to the point of drawing envy, I've more or less made my peace with that. I've never personally been judged on that basis. And of course many do have understandable financial hardships and fears of unemployment or not being able to find new work.....

[Maciamo]

In all honesty, that is most likely the response most Americans would give as well to how the country can be improved.

I you ask me what could be improved in Europe, I'd say the education system (as explained in another thread), more democracy (frequent referendum about important issues, internet polls taken in consideration by politicians, etc.), reform the unemployment benefit system so as to have less lazy people not looking for jobs, crack down on criminality (with expulsion of foreign criminal with non-permanent visa, which isn't even the case now ! - probably the only place in the world ), stimulate the economy, create more private (paid) universities to rival with American ones (as currently they are all free and at very similar levels, but not enough excellent ones due to lack of funds), etc, etc. I don't even know where to stop, as there are so many obvious things that everybody know need to ne improved.

But when I ask educated Japanese business people, I only hear about the economy, while the situation regarding democracy, education, etc. are much worse in Japan than in Europe (I hope that people who consider me a "Japan-basher" will finally understand that I am being very kind in my criticism of Japan, compared to what I would do "at home", in Europe, with my own government and people; because I don't even have the right to vote in Japan ).

[giant_robot]

Ok, yes, in some part morals are based on culture, and what is wrong for some people is right to others, but there are some common points that most cultures can agree on. For example, you speak of want for material posessions being wrong as if that were purely a Western sentiment. What about Buddhism? "Desire is suffering." It's a religion supposedly embraced by Japan. I think the real issue you're describing is not so much that Japanese people have different values, but that they are amoral by their own standards.

That being said, who isn't? It's easy to go to a different country and put their actions under the microscope, but the truth of the matter is, like Emoni said, most people in the world are bad by the standards they believe in. Perhaps the difference in Japan is they are simply less ashamed of it. Perhaps they are simply more honest. I don't know, I just had to clarify that morality is really not that different the world over.