Assumptions that gaijin cannot speak Japanese (at all)

[mad pierrot]

Why am I surprised? Because for every one good Japanese speaker I meet, I come across fifty who struggle to even make basic conversation. And that includes people who have been here for several years. You really need to remove the huge chip on your shoulder and take peoples surprise as a compliment (which I'm sure it is often meant to be).

Furthermore, you always seem to place yourself above other people in regard to your mental powers of perception and reasoning. Frequently you've stated that if someone disagrees with you it's because they're not able to come up to your level, they don't understand or they can't think in the way that you do. I know that this might be hard for you, but have you ever considered that the reason they disagree with your view, is simply because you're wrong?

Actually, I think you're missing the point. I agree with Maciamo on this. Prime example: I recently started working at a Senior High School. On my first day, the principal introduced me to all my fellow teachers. He mentioned I had lived in Wakayama for two years and studied at Kansai Gaidai University. The following period I had lunch in the caf with them. I was asked, as usual...

Wow! You can speak Japanese?
You use chopstick?
You can eat nattou?



These are the same teachers who tell all their students that Americans only drink coke and eat hamburgers. And don't tell me it's because they don't know otherwise, because I knew the last American they worked with, and she was a counter-culture vegetarian liberal. And I still get told all Americans do this, all Americans love that.......

wtf??????

[mad pierrot]

I do believe there is a logical reason for this. I've got quite abit to say on this topic, but I've got work now, so it'll have to wait until later tonight.

Until then.....

[nurizeko]

The only problem is im probably the typical gaijin, when it comes to botching upo japanese, i only know words, not really full sentences, and despite the fact im fairly familiar with japan, ive always found languages to not be my strongest hand.

It would be nice that if you use japanese, then the japanese should use it to but, thats life.

[Maciamo]

The only problem is im probably the typical gaijin, when it comes to botching upo japanese, i only know words, not really full sentences, and despite the fact im fairly familiar with japan, ive always found languages to not be my strongest hand.

But have you lived in Japan for several years and lived with a Japanese ?

[Mike Cash]

But have you lived in Japan for several years and lived with a Japanese ?

Let's be fair, now. You haven't done that first bit yourself yet.

[mad pierrot]

What really troubles me are the types of questions Japanese people ask foreigners. As Mikawa Ossan said, I'm sure some of these dumb questions are directed at making conversation. Then again, you can make conversation about anything, why make it about foreigner's deficiencies?

So why the hell do they ask them? (A.K.A., Can you use chopsticks, speak Japanese, sit seiza, eat nattou, drink tea, whatever.)

I think the reason is cultural identity. It's all about securing their cultural ID. Think about it. All those questions have something to do with Japanese culture. From a very young age it's instilled that Japanese culture is very unique. They're raised being taught how special Japan is. And of course they're right. Japan is special. I think the problem is in emphasizing how special it is they go way overboard. (I've observed this from working at 14 schools over 2 years.) Quite frankly, many of the things that made Japan so unique 50 years ago don't apply anymore today, but they're still being taught them. In order to make Japan seem more special, alot of stereotypes about foreign countries are perpetuated. So you get kids in grade school being taught something like this:

In Japan people love sushi, and eat fish.
In America people eat hamburgers, and eat beef.

The problem is they go overboard and you get people thinking all Americans eat beef and never eat fish, let alone sushi. No joke. I don't know how many times I get a surprised reaction when I tell people I love fish and ate it everyday in America. The list goes on:

Japan has a rainy season. Japan is very humid.
So.....
America doesn't have a rainy season. America is very dry.

And so on and so forth.

Since they get this kind of thinking programmed into their brains at a very young age, they have all kind of bizarre expectations about foreigners. Worst still, I think some people actually get insulted when foreigners fail to live up to their expectations. The was a great story in Kansai Time Out a few years ago about a man living in Kobe. He had been living in Japan for over ten years and quite naturally spoke Japanese well. One day outside of a store, he was stopped by a Japanese man who wanted to speak English with him. He declined politely in Japanese. The Japanese man failed repeatedly attempting to draw him into converstion, getting angrier as time went on. The episode ended with the Japanese guy storming off, yelling at the foreigner to "go home" and such.

This sort of thing has nevered happened to me. However, I did have a similar experiences with co-workers. A fellow teacher liked to repeatedly ask me what "Japanese" things I could do. Yes, I know a little about tea ceremony. Yes, I've tried Judo and Aikido. Yes, I know about the legend of Yoshitsune, etc, etc. He would come up with a different question everyday. Every time I answered "yes," he would walk away disappointedly. When I finally answered "no" to one of his questions, he smiled broadly and annouced it to the entire room. I'm not making this up.

In a nutshell, I disagree with this line of thinking.

Because for every one good Japanese speaker I meet, I come across fifty who struggle to even make basic conversation. And that includes people who have been here for several years.

Why? I agree there are quite a few people who come to Japan not being able to speak Japanese and never bother to learn. But, from my two years in the JET programme, my time with ECC and with private students, and my time at Kansai University, and with friends and family who have come to visit me, I have found gaijin overwhelmingly able to use chopsticks, eat raw fish, etc. Even my grouchy old obasan from the Mid-West could eat nattou. Which is why I scoff whenever a Japanese person tells me it's "rare" that a foreigner can eat sushi....

In sum, I think their own warped perceptions about Japan that color their behavior.


Damn that was long.

[Maciamo]

I completely agree and emphatize with everything you said, Mad Pierrot.

The problem is they go overboard and you get people thinking all Americans eat beef and never eat fish, let alone sushi. No joke. I don't know how many times I get a surprised reaction when I tell people I love fish and ate it everyday in America. The list goes on:

Yesterday again, as I told one of the students that I had been to Shanghai, he asked me what kind of food people ate there (typical question from a Japanese) and when I told him that there were, among others, Japanese restaurants, including sushi, his reaction was "But the Chinese don't like raw fish. I saw on TV that the Chinese never eat raw fish". (sic !) And he seemed really confused and in disbelief that there could indeed be sushi restaurants in a 13-million people metropolis like Shanghai, just across the sea from Japan.

I come across this kind of heavily stereotypical reactions, I lie not, several times a week. Sometimes to make them understand, I have to tell them things like "but don't Japanese people also eat Chinese, French, Italian or American food ?", "Isn't it true that some Japanese people do not like sushi or natto ?", "Out of 1.3 billion Chinese, why is it surprising that some people may like sushi ?". I think that people who haven't lived in Japan and do not meet a variety of Japanese people all the time (as language teachers do), probably cannot imagine how widespread this phenomenon is. It's not something you hear once in a while; it's a national phenomenon caused by the education system, as Mad Pierrot as explained so well.

This sort of thing has nevered happened to me. However, I did have a similar experiences with co-workers. A fellow teacher liked to repeatedly ask me what "Japanese" things I could do. Yes, I know a little about tea ceremony. Yes, I've tried Judo and Aikido. Yes, I know about the legend of Yoshitsune, etc, etc. He would come up with a different question everyday. Every time I answered "yes," he would walk away disappointedly. When I finally answered "no" to one of his questions, he smiled broadly and annouced it to the entire room. I'm not making this up.

Everytime I meet my mother-in-law's boyfriend, it's like that.

The last time we went to the restaurant together (with the family), he again tried to find things that I couldn't do like the Japanese, didn't know about Japan or that didn't exist in Europe. It was a kaiseki restaurant, and at the end of the meal came a strange kind of tiny potato (about the size of a blueberry). He asked me whether I knew this or if we had this in Europe. I answered that I had never seen that before to his utter rejoicement. But then my wife and her mother also said that they also didn't know such a potato existed !

But, from my two years in the JET programme, my time with ECC and with private students, and my time at Kansai University, and with friends and family who have come to visit me, I have found gaijin overwhelmingly able to use chopsticks, eat raw fish, etc. Even my grouchy old obasan from the Mid-West could eat nattou. Which is why I scoff whenever a Japanese person tells me it's "rare" that a foreigner can eat sushi....

I usually illustrate this to my Japanese acquaintances (almost all of them on the topic of "sushi and natto", as I can't remembered not being asked about it by someone) by giving them the statistics from JREF (this poll and that one, with respectively 43% and 55% of the respondants choosing sushi as their favourite Japanese dish). Maybe I should carry a print of the polls all the time with me.


EDIT : as I was watching the weather forecast on NHK 10 min ago, they exceptionally showed the weather for the world. It only lasted 3 seconds though. I was shocked to hear that the guy just said "yo-roppa wa hare", as it was possible to have the same weather all over Europe (what's more, the map showed clouds almost everywhere). This, I think, summarise well the Japanese way of seeing the rest of the world as a series of homogenous continent. The way they think that all Europeans are alike, they don't even make an effort to distinguish the main regions for the weather. If they had little time to review the world's weather on BBC or CNN, they would say something like "15 degree and cloudy in London, 21 degree and sunny in New York..." giving city names, but never a whole continent as it's just senseless.

Indeed, I realised that the weather was always only about Japan, contrarily to other Asian countries, where they normally show the weather for all East Asia too (e.g. on China's CCTV). They could at least show the weather for Korea and China, as thousands of Japanese business people and tourists fly there everyday. They just don't. Nice proof of ethno-centrism.

[Mikawa Ossan]

Please let me apologize in advance if this gets too long.

OK, well...let's see...Maciamo, thanks for being such a sport about this. I wasn't anticipating such a response...

To respond in not-perfect order,

You must be wondering : "Why does he know that the Japanese try to praise him and still get offended ?"

If you're talking to me, actually, no I'm not. I understand perfectly. I have been offended at the same thing. I also have gotten offended by people asking me to teach them English, as if every caucasian in Japan is here exclusively for that reason. At least , I used to to.

Somewhere down the line, I came to the realization that many times the people saying these things are just trying to make conversation. They're not REALLY surprised at the fact that you can use chopsticks, but they think it's a safe topic to start conversation. It's like talking about the weather, in that sense.

I find that sometimes I get complimented on my chopstick use in comparison to young Japanese, many of whom for some reason never learned the "correct" way to hold their chopsticks. I think of this more as an indirect insult of Japanese youth than a compliment of myself.

Just something to consider.

If you wonder that, then your mind cannot think like mine (while I can, nevertheless, understand your position).

I'm sure you didn't mean to, but this sounds condescending, and IMHO comes dangerously close to this statement you criticised some Japanese people of making:

"Japanese brains work differently and so it's very difficult for foreigners to learn Japanese..."

...(note that I am not confronting my country's culture against the Japanese one, but my personal culture/mindset against any culture in the world).

I'm sorry if I lead you to believe that I thought you were. I don't, although to be more specific, I do think that anyone's "personal culture/mindset" is heavily influenced by the culture you were reared and raised in. I hope you can agree with that. I think that if I personally was born and raised in Japan, I would be a very different person than I am today.

It can be explained by Kohlberg's stages of moral development.

Ah, yes, Kohlberg. To be fair, I must admit that I personally don't really agree with his stages. But since you brought it up, something about the Wikpedia entry struck me.

In Stage six, moral reasoning is based on the use of abstract reasoning using universal ethical principles. One way to do this is by imagining oneself in everyone else's shoes, imagining what they would decide if they were doing the same.

This sounded an awful lot like,

...the Japanese try to "read people's feelings" and say what they think would please a person from their point of view.

Are Japanese people actually at stage 6 on Kohlberg's stages by any chance?

Since you bring up the issue of logic so much, I would like to point out that being a human being, it' pretty much impossible for ANYONE on the face of Earth to be 100% logical. Yes, some people can be more logical than others, but even if you are comparatively logical, it's not the same as being 100% so. If ever you let emotions influence your judgement or actions, you are not being 100% logical. At least, not in my opinion.

In fact, when I first came to Japan, I didn't even suspect that the Japanese could discriminate against well-behaving Westerners interested in their country.

Ah, but you see, I was the exact opposite. The first time I went to Japan, it was partly to meet the parents of my girlfriend/fiancee. I knew her father was at least 60 years old and retired, so I came prepared for the worst. I was convinced that he'd hate me for "stealing" his daughter. When we first met, I immediately said the Japanese I had worked so hard to memorize, even though I had no idea what it meant, 「今後ともどうぞよろしくお願いします」. He just grunted and didn't say a word. (Looking back, I almost certainly murdered the pronunciation, and he probably had no idea what I was trying to say. )

He didn't really talk to me much at all until one day we were playing "hasami shougi" (kind of like checkers for those who don't know) and I solidly beat him. For some reason, I felt playful, so I said, 「お父さん、頭わるい！」with a big smile. (That was about the extent of my Japanese at the time.) He looked at me for a moment and then broke up laughing! Ever since, we got along just great. Right up until his daughter and I separated.... But I digress.

Had is been only for that, I could have dismissed it as a special case. But the longer I stayed in Japan, the more I gained confidence to address locals in Japanese (without my wife's presence), and the more I realised that this was a quite common attitude. I could go to the dry cleaning, several bento shops, ask something at the station, the immediate reaction of most people over 40 (and some younger too) was to "freeze" and make gestures assuming that I was not speaking Japanese. With younger people, they typically responded by this expression of surprise that "eventhough I was only a gaijin, I managed to learn their difficult language".

My first reaction to this was, "I wonder what your pronunciation sounds like." I say this because I have encountered a couple of foreigners who spoke reasonably good Japanese gramatically, but it took me a while to figure out what they were saying because of their pronunciation. I have heard my own recorded voice speaking Japanese on occasion, and I was surprised at how different it sounds to me from native speakers. Maybe your pronunciation played a part in your experience.

There was more I was going to say, but this has already gotten quite lengthy. I just want to close in saying that just today alone, I went to the local JA to renew my auto insurance and I talked to someone from the local Asahi newspaper office trying to get me to subscribe (even though I already do. hehe). None of the people involved seemed the least bit suprised that I speak or read Japanese or treated me with anything other than respect.

I will admit though, that I overheard the girl who helped me at the JA say to her colleagues, 「どきどきするね！」

[Maciamo]

They're not REALLY surprised at the fact that you can use chopsticks, but they think it's a safe topic to start conversation. It's like talking about the weather, in that sense.

And do you find this a good topic to start a conversation ? Everytime they say that (or any other pseudo-compliment), I am at a loss to what to respond. Shall I say "oh, you know, I worked hard on it everyday", or "oh, it just came naturally" or just "thank you" ? Anyway, that wouldn't lead to much conversation. Considering that people who praised me on my chopstick use were generally my wife's acquaintances, my wife was there too, we had been introduced, they knew more or less who I was and what I did in Japan, and they could have easily used her to facilitate the conversation in the cases when we were not already discussing. Sometimes such remarks come after I have known the person for a while and we have already discussed about many things. Then, when we end up eating together, this remarks comes up inevitably. My wife now explains that I don't like this kind of compliments, but they usually look even more surprised and try to justify themselves by saying that they truly believe that using chopsticks is not so easy (!!??). Upon which, I try to change the topic. Same for the questions like "can you eat sushi" or "does your country have 4 season".

This sounded an awful lot like, Are Japanese people actually at stage 6 on Kohlberg's stages by any chance?

Do you mean that the Japanese feel above the law and social conventions because they believe in universal ethics ? I am yet to meet such Japanese. I think the explanation on Wikipedia about "being in someone's shoes" is a bit misleading. If they indeed were like that, why would I be complaining about them not trying to understand my feelings ? Their responses seem automated with such regularity that it feels almost stereotypical. This is one of the most amazing thing for me about Japan, how people's reactions are predictable. They care so much about not going astray from the well-harmonised social conventions that they often have a hard time expressing what they really think (or even realising what their own opinion is, as I noticed with my wife).

In the Japanese society, there are fixed expressions for almost every social situation, and almost everyone uses exactly in the same situation. People greet you in shops with an "irasshaimse", not by a "konnichiwa" or "yokoso". When you meet someone, you always start with "hajimemashite" and after being introduced you say "dozo yoroshiku onegai shimase". When you enter someone's home, you say "o-jama shimasu". No normal Japanese would think of saying something else in these situations. There is only one "right answer". I would call it the routine of conventions, and I believe that asking foreigners whether they can eat sushi, use chopsticks, etc. is part of these conventions. This is also why I think it can be changed.

Like Mad Pierrot said, typical Japanese teachers will tell pupils exactly the same thing about foreigners, even if they should know better from their personal experience. In the last few months, I have tried to ask as many people as possible about what they were taught at school. So far it has been nearly 100% consistent about these fallacies or stereotypes. They are taught that :

- Japan is unique for having 4 seasons
- Westerners all speak English
- Westerners are predominantly of blood-group "O", while Japanese are predominantly "A". The explanation given is always that the Japanese were farmers since ancient times, while Westerners were hunters. An alternative explanation is that the Japanese were vegetarian until Meiji, while Westerners were always heavy meat-eaters. They are also taught that the Chinese are predominantly of group "B", and that "B" people have a stronger ('more anti-social') personality.

I have explained this in more detail in my article Common Japanese misconceptions regarding foreigners and foreign countries. I wrote the article 7 months ago based on everything I had heard times and again till then. I have tried to confirm it as much as I could since then, and all the people I diplomatically questioned did confirm it. I invite you to try to find out among your Japanese acquaintances too (just try to bring up the subject, bring them to ask you the relevant questions, then ask them where they heard about the "farmers vs hunters" theory, and whether they learned that at school or not).

If ever you let emotions influence your judgement or actions, you are not being 100% logical. At least, not in my opinion.

Emotions are often opposed to cold rationality. But logics isn't exactly the same as rationality. Anyway, we need emotions to think, to wonder, to doubt, to question. Without emotions, we would just be computers and not do anything from our own initiative. I believe that it is possible to combine some kind of emotions with very logical thinking, as you as you are not taken over by the emotions only. It is very possible to get angry because someone you discuss with won't argue logically (it is typically the case of blinded religious believers).

My first reaction to this was, "I wonder what your pronunciation sounds like." I say this because I have encountered a couple of foreigners who spoke reasonably good Japanese gramatically, but it took me a while to figure out what they were saying because of their pronunciation.

As a native French speaker, I have no problem rendering any sound found in Japanese (except the "h" for typical French speakers, but it's not a problem for me, as it also exists in English, Dutch or German). French speakers are some of the Westerners who have the easiest to pronouce Japanese (however the Japanese have a tough time pronoucing French, as French has many more sounds). English or German vowels and consonnant are very different from Japanese. A Japanese "k" or "p" is weaker than a Germanic one. But French consonnant are basically the same. Vowels too, except the Japanese "u" which is half-way between the French "u" and "ou" (closer to the "u" actually, which doesn't exist in English). My wife, and other people, say that my pronuciation is about the same as a native Japanese. Pronuciation is one of my strong points when learning languages. English and French pronuciation are extremely different, but no English speaker would guess that I am a French speaker (although they could hear that I am not a native speaker, but cannot tell from where, and some have asked me whether I was Scandinavian as that's the closest pronuciation to English).

So I really don't think that my pronuciation was the issue when the many Japanese who "froze" when I talked to them. It was just that they forced themselves to think that I could not possibly be speaking Japanese. When I talk to Japanese friends in Japanese, I never have to repeat one time what I say for them to understand, except if I use the wrong word or mistake in the grammar (that rarely happens in "small talks").

I also want to say that it happens from time to time that people do not look surprised that I speak Japanese. Sometimes they do not look surprise but still try to talk back in English to me, until they see that communication is easier in Japanese.

[Silverpoint]

And do you find this a good topic to start a conversation ? Everytime they say that (or any other pseudo-compliment), I am at a loss to what to respond. Shall I say "oh, you know, I worked hard on it everyday", or "oh, it just came naturally" or just "thank you" ?

Maciamo, it strikes me (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) that as this debate has continued your arguments have become more and more desperate due to your absolute refusal ever to concede a point to anyone, or revise your view based on other peoples comments.

What on earth are you doing now? Condemning the Japanese because in a situation which many people find a little awkward (i.e. meeting people for the first time), they say a slightly clumsy opening line in the conversation in order to ingratiate themselves. For God's sake man, I'm sure people would have a lot more respect for your view if you just said "Ok, maybe I'm overreacting a bit here" instead of having to pursue these increasingly ridiculous rebuttals just to try and save face in an argument in which clearly your opinion is in the minority.

I could apply your argument to absolutely anything. If someone said to me "nice weather today", should I in the same way feel upset and insulted because I've been living on this earth for 32 years, and I'm intelligent enough to know for myself if the weather is good or not. And they should be well aware of that.

[Maciamo]

Maciamo, it strikes me (and I'm sure I'm not the only one) that as this debate has continued your arguments have become more and more desperate due to your absolute refusal ever to concede a point to anyone, or revise your view based on other peoples comments.

Maybe I am a bit obssessive-compulsive on this. But I have to live with it everyday, so sometimes I need to "release the steam". Note that when I don't reply to a comment, It means that I tacitly agree. Because the proverb "Silence implies consent" means a lot to me, I have to say something if I do not fully agree. So far I have been goving backgrounders, not really disageeing. I thank Mikawa Ossan for his examples of how to deal with the chopstick situation. I admit that humour is not a typical way of mine to escape awkward situations. I'd rather explain my way of thinking so that they at least know how I feel about it. I am a teacher, so believe in education. I just can't let people live with heavy misconceptions. It's as much my job/duty to correct them on this than on the language itself. I know from experience (e.g. with my wife) that it pays to explain these things.

What on earth are you doing now? Condemning the Japanese because in a situation which many people find a little awkward (i.e. meeting people for the first time), they say a slightly clumsy opening line in the conversation in order to ingratiate themselves.

As you can see in my post above, most of these "awkward situations" did not happen when I first met someone. Sometimes it was months after I had met the person for at least one hour every week. I usually don't go to the restaurant with people I hardly know (except my wife's friends). How would you explain that my "father-in-law", which I know very well, still ask all kind of questions to try to find things for which Japan or Japanese people are unique ?

For God's sake man, I'm sure people would have a lot more respect for your view if you just said "Ok, maybe I'm overreacting a bit here" instead of having to pursue these increasingly ridiculous rebuttals just to try and save face in an argument in which clearly your opinion is in the minority.

I am not overreacting and I am not trying to save face. I am trying to make other people understand what I want them to understand. I told you, I believe in education. My methods may be non-conformist, but that's because I am non-conformist.

I could apply your argument to absolutely anything. If someone said to me "nice weather today", should I in the same way feel upset and insulted because I've been living on this earth for 32 years, and I'm intelligent enough to know for myself if the weather is good or not. And they should be well aware of that.

Not really. When someone say "nice weather today", they just want to share their present feelings, or ask for a confirmation from the other party. Note that weather is independent from any party involved. It is different from complimenting somebody on things that do not need compliment, and thus making them feel awkard.

What I hated particularily in my first few months in Japan was when someone would say "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" while I was struggling to make a sentence. This time it's not about complimenting something that should be natural, but the opposite "complimenting someone who is not good at something". I sometimes wonder if their aim was to make fun of me, as they didn't have to make a remark stressing my poor skills. Interestingly, I haven't hear that "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" since I became reasonably fluent, which somehow proves that it was not a real compliment. Now, they just say "oh, you can speak Japanese" or "oh, you can read kanji". But it's still out of place when they say that after I have just said one sentence or read some very easy kanji (you know, those that we all know after a month in Japan).

The other way round is better, IMO. They could have shown their surprised at my reading a few simple kanji after I just arrived in Japan, while now that my Japanese is decent, they could say "oh, nihongo jouzu desu ne" (but only after a real conversation, and given I didn't mistake too much - NOT after a "konnichiwa" !). The opposite, knowing about my background, is trying to make fun of me or underestimate me (almost the same thing).

It's interesting to have this discussion with you, because if you too cannot understand the difference between saying "nice weather today" and doing so false compliment, it means that there are more people than I thought who can't distinguish between clearly different feelings.

The discussion about misconceptions is yet a different thing, although related. It is not about sharing a feeling ("nice weather today"), and not about complimenting ("oh, you can use chopsticks/read kanji, sugoooii !"). It is about a person's knowledge or conception of the world. In that case, I do not feel insulted or take it personally, I just can't believe what I hear. I feel sorry for them, and wonder how on earth an education system could deprive people of their critical sense to this extend. I said it was related to the "false complimenting" because it only happens because of such miscnceptions (here, "foreigners cannot speak Japanese, even after living several years in Japan, because Japanese is so unique and Japanese brains so different, because Japanese society was agricultural well before agriculture was invented, and Westerners were just axe-wielding barbarian hunters !" ).

It's important to try to understand what a person's conception of the world is to understand why they say things they say. I have been digging on this for at least 2 years now. There is such a thing as a common Japanese "world view". It is instilled to children since their tenderest age, and include all the misconceptions listed here.
My aim is to dispel the myths, for everybody's good, and help improving relations between Japan and "the outside".