Common Japanese misconceptions regarding foreigners

[corocoro]

About four seasons, I read a few posts by Korean people in some forums that they said the same thing "We have four seasons." So maybe it's Asian thing?

And Maciamo-san, I agree with what Shiro-san said.

That's the weirdest misconception.
What Japanese often admire Japan's nature for is it's distinct changing of four seasons, and the blessing of nature each season has. not for that Japan has it "four".

I also think this is totally a lie too. But I guess you wouldn't believe us(Shiro-san and me).

Japanese teachers misinform their students by telling them that all Westerners speak English.

I'm sorry to say this and I don't mean to be rude, but almost every time I read your comments about Japan, I feel really weird misconceptions in them although there are some points that I would agree with. Is that because my poor English?

And one more thing. I think you've said in some of your posts(and some other people too) that we Japanese think that we were superior to others. But I've never met a Japanese person in my whole life who said or acted like that. (I wonder where I can meet such narrow minded Japanese people? You should tell me! )

Maybe your too much european superiority(Yes, I said it! I feel a lot of it when you talk about Japanese/Japan or the U.S. It's strange you blame us for it but I feel vice versa. ) or pride make you think that you were condescended by us? That's what I felt from your Threads.

Sorry if my comment was too direct and my choice of words were too blunt. I have NO INTENTION to offend anyone. Actually, I came to think that's good thing for people from other countries to know not only positive side but also negative side of Japan. So I'm thankful to Maciamo-san in a way, but I also feel that many misconceptions from you.

[Maciamo]

[QUOTE=corocoro]
And Maciamo-san, I agree with what Shiro-san said.

That's the weirdest misconception.
What Japanese often admire Japan's nature for is it's distinct changing of four seasons, and the blessing of nature each season has. not for that Japan has it "four".

I understand that. I know that. In fact we could argue (and some Japanese do) that Japan has 5 seasons (with the "tsuyu"), or 3 (no real winter in some places), or else. But if Japanese people admire so much the seasons that they feel the need to tell ALL foreigners about it, how comes they don't alreday know that about all Western countries have 4 seasons ? If they do know, why ask this particular question and ask it this way ? They could ask "Are the seasons in your country as distinct as in Japan ?" or "Does each season in your country last about the same time as in Japan, or are some seasons shorter and longer ?" I have no problem at all with such questions. However, I was never asked them by any of the 100+ Japanese who asked me if my country had four seasons.

So, yes the Japanese do admire the changing of seasons, and it doesn't matter if there are 3, 4 or 5 of them, as Shiro and you said. But I think that the Japanese are so indoctrinated to think that their country is unique that many of them truely believe that Western countries may not have distinct seasons.

I also think this is totally a lie too. But I guess you wouldn't believe us(Shiro-san and me).

Japanese teachers misinform their students by telling them that all Westerners speak English.

I think you are judging things too easily. Are you saying that my wife, or some of my Japanese acquaitances lied to me about this ? It may be that you and Shiro were not told by your teachers that all Westerners speak English, but some people are, and probably enough of them so that there will always be some Japanese starting to talk English to the first Westerner they see, or enough Japanese believing that any Western teacher at NOVA or such schools is a native English teacher. In fact, whatever these schools say, there are many non-native teachers too, because most Japanese don't see the difference, as they believe Westerner = Native English-speaker.

And one more thing. I think you've said in some of your posts(and some other people too) that we Japanese think that we were superior to others. But I've never met a Japanese person in my whole life who said or acted like that.

1) have you ever studied psychology and psychoanalysis (the unconscious, subconscious, etc.) ? Many Japanese (especially older generations) feel superior at an unconscious or subconscious level. Anyway, even if it was fully conscious (maybe a few people), most Japanese are too polite to tell that they feel superior, because even in very direct cultures, people rarely say it even when they think it.

2) have you never heard of theories of "nihonjinon" ? This is what I am talking about. Akio Morita , the founder of Sony, is just one example of people who don't mind saying it publicly. But many politicians also think like that, for example the mayor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara. It is because a majority of Japanese agree with his racist ideas that he was elected and re-elected. But I understand very well that most Japanese will never tell a foreigner directly that they think of them as "barbarians" (=inferior), because they want to avoid direct confrontation.

3) During WWII, the Japanese showed well enough that they felt superior and were meant to govern the world (at least Asia). Many of the older generation nowadays grew up with such a minset and such values. It is very difficult to change. So they may not say it, but still feel it's true. Many politicians or company president in Japan are in their 70's, and so most grew up with such a mentality. These people also designed the Japanese education system, and try to inculcate the notions of nihonjinron as subtly as possible, so that it does not clearly appear in textbooks because it would be condemed by the United States.

4) questions like "can you use chopsticks" or "does your country have 4 seasons" are derivatives of this national indoctrination of "nihonjinron". Even if younger Japanese don't feel it consciously, a gaijin is always only a gaijin - and so probably doesn't speak Japanese, canot eat sushi, cannot sit in seiza, cannot appreciate the beauty of the uniquely Japanese cherry blossoms, or any other prejudice.

Here is Wikipedia's definition of nihonjinron. As you see, thinking that Japan is unique for its disticnt seasons or whatever is a step toward nihonjinron.

Nihonjinron (日本人論, "discourse on Japaneseness") is a Japanese term referring to culturally nationalist concepts of Japanese uniqueness. Such concepts may be scientifically, artistically, or politically produced.

I think it is sad that so many Japanese do not realise that they have been subtly indoctrinated by their education system about this. The fact that "critical thinking" is not taught in Japan is the best way to facilitate this indocrination, as too critical people would immediately notice it.

There is a reason why China or Korea pressure the Japanese government to change their history textbooks. There is a reason why Westerners like me think that Japanese have underlying racist attitudes based on the nihonjinron. There is a reason that Japan invaded all most of Asia in the 1930's and 40's. There is a reason that an openly racist politician can become twice mayor of Tokyo (as much as there is a reason for a extremist Christian to be elected as president of the USA). There is a reason why -right-conservative politicians have been in power in Japan for the last 50 years. Because that it what a majority of Japanese want, or wanted at the time.

[corocoro]

I understand that. I know that. In fact we could argue (and some Japanese do) that Japan has 5 seasons (with the "tsuyu"), or 3 (no real winter in some places), or else. But if Japanese people admire so much the seasons that they feel the need to tell ALL foreigners about it, how comes they don't alreday know that about all Western countries have 4 seasons ? If they do know, why ask this particular question and ask it this way ? They could ask "Are the seasons in your country as distinct as in Japan ?" or "Does each season in your country last about the same time as in Japan, or are some seasons shorter and longer ?" I have no problem at all with such questions. However, I was never asked them by any of the 100+ Japanese who asked me if my country had four seasons.

Okay.

Japanese are so indoctrinated to think that their country is unique that many of them truely believe that Western countries may not have distinct seasons.

indoctrinated by who? and what for?
I think it's just we are a country who appreciate　and admire very much the nature that we are blessed with. And this doesn't mean that we think we are more unique or superor to others, other countries or nature in other countries. The idea like Western countries may not have distinct seasons is simply coming from ignorance. I think nothing has to do with uniqueness.

I think you are judging things too easily.

May I say the same thing to you?
It's no problem to say "some" Japanese teachers "seems" to misinform their students. But how can you be so sure about it when you say "only" your wife and some of your acquaintances said so? And No, ofcause I don't think your wife and the acquaintances lied. But I'm almost certain that you misconstrue what they meant. It's too obviously weird idea for Japanese so me and Shiro-san couldn't stop claiming it's not ture. Please ask them again and make sure if they meant that "all" Westerners speak English and if they think it's a common idea that we have been taught about it in Japan.

there will always be some Japanese starting to talk English to the first Westerner they see,

Yes, Because it's the language we study at school. And it is considered a international language. So we assume most of the Westerners probably speak some of it. That's all.

enough Japanese believing that any Western teacher at NOVA or such schools is a native English teacher. In fact, whatever these schools say, there are many non-native teachers too, because most Japanese don't see the difference, as they believe Westerner = Native English-speaker.

Yes, Many Japanese believe that Western teachers at those schools are native English speakers because those schools are for learning "English". And There are probably many Japanse who can't tell the difference and believe that the teaters are native, but There are also many Japanese who can tell the difference and rather feel disappointed on the lessons.

1) have you ever studied psychology and psychoanalysis (the unconscious, subconscious, etc.) ? Many Japanese (especially older generations) feel superior at an unconscious or subconscious level. Anyway, even if it was fully conscious (maybe a few people), most Japanese are too polite to tell that they feel superior, because even in very direct cultures, people rarely say it even when they think it.

I don't think you need to study psychology to understand the unconscious and subconscious...

So if I study psychology, is it okay to make generalization like you do? I told you I have never met a Japanese who imply superiority toward non-Japanese people in my life. Maybe you could consider the fact a little. I think Japan is still too homogeneous that we barely have a oppotunity to communicate with non-Japanese people unless you have a certain interest in other cultures or you live in a certain place in a big city. I really don't want to be rude, but to be honest, most of Japanese barely think about Gaikokujin in our everyday life... And Have you ever imagin that we might have experienced the same kind of unconscious and subconscious superiority from Western people?

2) have you never heard of theories of "nihonjinon" ? This is what I am talking about. Akio Morita , the founder of Sony, is just one example of people who don't mind saying it publicly. But many politicians also think like that, for example the mayor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara. It is because a majority of Japanese agree with his racist ideas that he was elected and re-elected. But I understand very well that most Japanese will never tell a foreigner directly that they think of them as "barbarians" (=inferior), because they want to avoid direct confrontation.

"nihonjin-ron" It's just a theory...
Excuse me? You really believe A majority of Japanese agree with his racist idea? Most of us disagree with it. We are supporting for him because he carries out his word unlike other politicians who seems to take forever to decide one tiny thing.

3) During WWII, the Japanese showed well enough that they felt superior and were meant to govern the world (at least Asia).

If the past has something to do with superiority, Japan won't be the only one, I guess.

try to inculcate the notions of nihonjinron as subtly as possible, so that it does not clearly appear in textbooks

What for?

4) questions like "can you use chopsticks" or "does your country have 4 seasons" are derivatives of this national indoctrination of "nihonjinron". Even if younger Japanese don't feel it consciously,

Again, What for? What is the benefit for us to doing so when it seems to only bothers many non-Japanese like you do?

a gaijin is always only a gaijin - and so probably doesn't speak Japanese, canot eat sushi, cannot sit in seiza, cannot appreciate the beauty of the uniquely Japanese cherry blossoms, or any other prejudice.

This part, I'd agree with you 100%. We really need to change. But one thing I really like you to know is most of these ideas are comming from ignorance not from superiority.

Here is Wikipedia's definition of nihonjinron. As you see, thinking that Japan is unique for its disticnt seasons or whatever is a step toward nihonjinron.

I think it is sad that so many Japanese do not realise that they have been subtly indoctrinated by their education system about this. The fact that "critical thinking" is not taught in Japan is the best way to facilitate this indocrination, as too critical people would immediately notice it.

You are assuming again...

There is a reason why China or Korea pressure the Japanese government to change their history textbooks.

There must also be some reason for us why we don't then...

There is a reason why Westerners like me think that Japanese have underlying racist attitudes based on the nihonjinron. There is a reason that Japan invaded all most of Asia in the 1930's and 40's. There is a reason that an openly racist politician can become twice mayor of Tokyo (as much as there is a reason for a extremist Christian to be elected as president of the USA). There is a reason why -right-conservative politicians have been in power in Japan for the last 50 years. Because that it what a majority of Japanese want, or wanted at the time

Yes, They are a reason for things. But most of part, You are just assuming things as you wish to be. To me, It seems as if you are rejecting the fact that we Japanese are just same human being　as anybody else. I really don't know why you want to distinguish people like Japanese, American or European that much. I've learned by visiting other countries that after all, no matter what color you are, people are basically all the same. So your idea surprises me a lot.

Anyway, This post might be miss the point a lot. This is beyond my poor English ability. I hope you would understand what I mean.

Thank you for reading.

[Maciamo]

indoctrinated by who? and what for?

Let me answer here all the "what for" in your post. The people who wish to indoctrinate the Japanese population usually have a strong ego and believe themselves that the Japanese are superior to other peoples. These are the Japanese politicians (maybe not all, but probably quite a lot of them from what I have seen, heard and read about them). It's only natural for some humans to want power and pride, and politicians are a sort of special gathering of the people who feel the most like this - especially in big countries like Japan, the US, UK, France, etc. because that make them feel even more powerful and proud to control a rich and populous country.

Try to feel how the leaders of Japan during WWII felt, and understand what was their motivation to invade Asia. Power, pride, and a sense of superiority. Unfortunately, this is part of human nature, and such people are to be found in every country. The problem I feel about Japan (not at first, but the more I read about Japanese politics, the more I feel so), is that the way of thinking of high-ranking politicians has changed little since WWII regarding their greed for power, pride and has even increased regarding money. They now have to be politically correct vis-a-vis the United States, because they lost the war and still feel it. But their pride is still strong, and one way of showing it was by rebuilding the country and try to surpass the US economically.

When that suceeded in the 1980's (the Bubble years), not only the politicians but many Japanese felt superior to the rest of the world. You can't deny it because many books were written at that time by many Japanese people to explain how everything Japanese was better and more efficient than in other countries. Their ego literally followed the rise of the stock exchange. It's only with the bubble burst from 1990 and 15 years of sluggish economic growth that most of the Japanese really started to wonder what was wrong with them, their political system, their management style or their education system. You can't deny that. Everybody knows it.

So now you tell me that the Japanese do not feel superior. Well, maybe they can't admit it because it's not politically correct, AND the economy cannot prove it anymore (that's where we see how money is important to rate things in Japan - more than one's knowledge of the world). So frustrated Japanese people turn their hidden (subconscious) sentiment of superiority to something else. That's when we see the media accusing foreigners of the rise in crimes (few people question that it could be due to 15 years of economic slowdown). Instead of fairly reporting all crime cases, the news agencies concentrate on "foreign crime" and insinuate that all the problems of Japan are caused by the increased foreign population. And people like Shintaro Ishihara get elected and re-elected in Tokyo (the most cosmopolitan and "liberal" city in Japan - so I wonder how that is in the conservative countryside !). Do you mean that there is not even one other trustworthy politician in all Tokyo to elect instead of a self-proclaimed racist ? With the things he said and wrote in his book (the "Nanjing massacre never happened", etc.), he would have been banned from being governor in most European countries. (for instance, Jorg Hayder party in Austria, the Vlaams Blok in Belgium, etc. were forbidden to form any ruling party).

I have witnessed myself how the police stops any foreigner in the street for no reason just because "a gaijin is always suspect". I am not the only one to feel so. Just check Arudo Debito's website. I have also seen sign "foreigners and dogs not allowed", and experience being refused accommodation by landowners who had never seen me just because I had a foreign name. These kind of things happen everyday in Japan. So no matter how many times you tell me that Japanese do not feel superior (eg. morally, being better behaved, less "risky", etc.) or are not even a bit racist, I won't believe you from my personal experiences.

I think that most Japanese do not realise that they are being indoctrinated since their birth by the government via the media and schools, but they are, otherwise they wouldn't hold such homogenous prejudices against foreigners, foreign countries or even foreign languages (see my new addition "Chinese is similar to English" in the original article).

Yes, Many Japanese believe that Western teachers at those schools are native English speakers because those schools are for learning "English". And There are probably many Japanse who can't tell the difference and believe that the teaters are native, but There are also many Japanese who can tell the difference and rather feel disappointed on the lessons.

But native speakers are not always the best teachers. Many lack qualifications to teach or have a personality that is not made for teaching. But a non-native speakers who has become as fluent as a native knows how to learn that language, and can usually teach it better than natives. The problem is that not all of them speak decent English, even (or especially?) in school like NOVA.

I really don't know why you want to distinguish people like Japanese, American or European that much. I've learned by visiting other countries that after all, no matter what color you are, people are basically all the same.

I have a very international experience, having lived in 7 countries and visited over 30 more. However I disagree with you. All humans may be the same in average, notwithstanding interpersonal differences even inside the same family (different character, interests, intelligence...). But it is very possible to compare whole countries, based on their culture (mentality) and education system. This last one is what distinguises so much Japan, Europe and the US. Eventhough there are many very different cultures inside Europe, the education system in each country is more similar than with any non-European country, which is what unites Europeans.

My complaints are not about Japanese people as human beings, but about the education system (school + home). It makes the Japanese ignorant of the rest of the world, and ignorance creates racism (police, discrimination about accommodation, etc.) or other problems (insulting comments about using chopsticks, etc.). I hope you understand.

[corocoro]

Maciamo-san,
I didn't post in this tread because I was offended nor defensive as a Japanese, but I simply felt that your idea is full of misconceptions. I mainly wanted to let you know it's not like what you assume to make you feel more relieved and comfortable.

But I have not much things to say since you are so determined to your idea. But Perhaps Isn't it you who actually want to believe the idea that Japanese feel superior to others, but not us Japanese? That's what I felt from your posts.

[corocoro]

Hi Suleiman58-san,
I think the explanation in my posts is not enough because of my very limited English. So some(many?) people would misunderstand what I mean...

we all confident that the life of every one of us is going to an end , is not it ??

We must search for eternal life with happiness.

This is a reality..... with real proof ... gloriuos evidence .........

I'm sorry I'm not sure what you really meant. But I know that everyone judges things based on his/her experience and we are searching for happiness. So I won't deny there are racists or people who feel superiority in Japan nor your/Maciamo-sans experience. But Every country has those type of people. And I also think it's too easy to generalize a whole nation by ones experience or reading books. And it may narrow one's scope. That is my concern.

I can understand why many non-Japanese people like here have misconceptions about our country. Because our custom/habit/our way of dealing with foreign people/launguage problem... all these things are mixed badly and makes it look like racisum. If I wasn't Japanese, I would probably have felt the same thing. That's why I would like to clear up some misunderstandings.

Anyway, Here's some examples...

1)foreigners are forbidden signs...
We actually do this among Japanese. People who have tattoo are forbidden at public bathhouse, and there are stickers which says "Salespeople are forbidden." or " Hucksters are forbidden." I think this is the way we avoid troubles beforehand, In this case, it's not foreign people but the troubles that we may have(launguage/manner).

2)Lesidential issue...
Well, I think it would be the same reason as I mentioned above. I've heard some same stories that Japanese landlords treated foreign people the same way they did to Japanese first, but there were many troubles occurred between them so they become reluctant to lend rooms to foreigners.

I know it's not acceptable to generalize all the foreign people like this, but knowing these reasons may also be helpful when non-Japanese people deal with us Japanese.

[Maciamo]

1)foreigners are forbidden signs...
We actually do this among Japanese. People who have tattoo are forbidden at public bathhouse, and there are stickers which says "Salespeople are forbidden." or " Hucksters are forbidden." I think this is the way we avoid troubles beforehand, In this case, it's not foreign people but the troubles that we may have(launguage/manner).

People with tatooes in Japan are usually yakuza. Forbidding foreigners is equal to saying that foreigners are as bad/dangerous as yakuza. I understand perfectly what you mean.

2)Residential issue...
Well, I think it would be the same reason as I mentioned above. I've heard some same stories that Japanese landlords treated foreign people the same way they did to Japanese first, but there were many troubles occurred between them so they become reluctant to lend rooms to foreigners.

I know it's not acceptable to generalize all the foreign people like this, but knowing these reasons may also be helpful when non-Japanese people deal with us Japanese.

I am sure most landlords don't have more problems with (Japanese-speaking) Westerners than with Japanese. I went to some big real etate agencies with my wife, and they said frankly that most landlords didn't want to rent apartments to foreigners, even Westerners with a stable job and married to a Japanese, and even with as several Japanese guarantors. However, most Japanese landlords have never rent anything to foreigners (or at least Westerners). In English, this s called prejudice (=unjust behaviour formed on a preconceived opinion not based on actual facts or experience).

[JMoon]

[QUOTE=Maciamo;180694]

And Maciamo-san, I agree with what Shiro-san said.
I understand that. I know that. In fact we could argue (and some Japanese do) that Japan has 5 seasons (with the "tsuyu"), or 3 (no real winter in some places), or else. But if Japanese people admire so much the seasons that they feel the need to tell ALL foreigners about it, how comes they don't alreday know that about all Western countries have 4 seasons ? If they do know, why ask this particular question and ask it this way ? They could ask "Are the seasons in your country as distinct as in Japan ?" or "Does each season in your country last about the same time as in Japan, or are some seasons shorter and longer ?" I have no problem at all with such questions. However, I was never asked them by any of the 100+ Japanese who asked me if my country had four seasons.
So, yes the Japanese do admire the changing of seasons, and it doesn't matter if there are 3, 4 or 5 of them, as Shiro and you said. But I think that the Japanese are so indoctrinated to think that their country is unique that many of them truely believe that Western countries may not have distinct seasons.
I think you are judging things too easily. Are you saying that my wife, or some of my Japanese acquaitances lied to me about this ? It may be that you and Shiro were not told by your teachers that all Westerners speak English, but some people are, and probably enough of them so that there will always be some Japanese starting to talk English to the first Westerner they see, or enough Japanese believing that any Western teacher at NOVA or such schools is a native English teacher. In fact, whatever these schools say, there are many non-native teachers too, because most Japanese don't see the difference, as they believe Westerner = Native English-speaker.
1) have you ever studied psychology and psychoanalysis (the unconscious, subconscious, etc.) ? Many Japanese (especially older generations) feel superior at an unconscious or subconscious level. Anyway, even if it was fully conscious (maybe a few people), most Japanese are too polite to tell that they feel superior, because even in very direct cultures, people rarely say it even when they think it.
2) have you never heard of theories of "nihonjinon" ? This is what I am talking about. Akio Morita , the founder of Sony, is just one example of people who don't mind saying it publicly. But many politicians also think like that, for example the mayor of Tokyo, Shintaro Ishihara. It is because a majority of Japanese agree with his racist ideas that he was elected and re-elected. But I understand very well that most Japanese will never tell a foreigner directly that they think of them as "barbarians" (=inferior), because they want to avoid direct confrontation.
3) During WWII, the Japanese showed well enough that they felt superior and were meant to govern the world (at least Asia). Many of the older generation nowadays grew up with such a minset and such values. It is very difficult to change. So they may not say it, but still feel it's true. Many politicians or company president in Japan are in their 70's, and so most grew up with such a mentality. These people also designed the Japanese education system, and try to inculcate the notions of nihonjinron as subtly as possible, so that it does not clearly appear in textbooks because it would be condemed by the United States.
4) questions like "can you use chopsticks" or "does your country have 4 seasons" are derivatives of this national indoctrination of "nihonjinron". Even if younger Japanese don't feel it consciously, a gaijin is always only a gaijin - and so probably doesn't speak Japanese, canot eat sushi, cannot sit in seiza, cannot appreciate the beauty of the uniquely Japanese cherry blossoms, or any other prejudice.
. As you see, thinking that Japan is unique for its disticnt seasons or whatever is a step toward nihonjinron.
I think it is sad that so many Japanese do not realise that they have been subtly indoctrinated by their education system about this. The fact that "critical thinking" is not taught in Japan is the best way to facilitate this indocrination, as too critical people would immediately notice it.
There is a reason why China or Korea pressure the Japanese government to change their history textbooks. There is a reason why Westerners like me think that Japanese have underlying racist attitudes based on the nihonjinron. There is a reason that Japan invaded all most of Asia in the 1930's and 40's. There is a reason that an openly racist politician can become twice mayor of Tokyo (as much as there is a reason for a extremist Christian to be elected as president of the USA). There is a reason why -right-conservative politicians have been in power in Japan for the last 50 years. Because that it what a majority of Japanese want, or wanted at the time.

Great post. It's a little scary to hear all this, but I experience this in the US as well.
Though, thinking about it, the US is a little better, well the parts I grew up in, since it was a melting pot. I grew up in NYC, and it's filled with people from all over the place, speaking their native language.
Though, I get a little anxious, when I hear these brainwashed Americans are all "support the troops", anti-Iraq or any country we are at war with...
Raising the Flag, patriotism, is all a little too scary for me and result in hate-crimes.
In the end, you have to find the right people, who will accept you for who you are.