Should all Japanese directly address foreigners in Japanese ?

[SkippyDaStudent85]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

I know that Americans, in general, tend to have this image of being the ignorant citizens who go around asking non-"American" appearing persons whether or not they can speak English, which can come off easily as an insult. However, (assuming the person is not trying to be a jerk) it is just a matter of clarifying the possible level of communication between the persons involved.

I don't thing that it is a matter of insult, but finding out a vital piece of information for accurate and respectful communication.

[Elizabeth]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

I know that Americans, in general, tend to have this image of being the ignorant citizens who go around asking non-"American" appearing persons whether or not they can speak English, which can come off easily as an insult. However, (assuming the person is not trying to be a jerk) it is just a matter of clarifying the possible level of communication between the persons involved.

I don't thing that it is a matter of insult, but finding out a vital piece of information for accurate and respectful communication.

Because it has all the hallmarks of politeness to most Americans, asking first may seem to be the rational compromise. The practical problem is imagining a real-life situation where it would actually be very useful, unless your Japanese partner thinks they may have just enough English to be of help or they assume the foreigner knows more than they are attempting, out of fear or discomfort....If you are just talking about receiving change or asking for a sack at a convenient store, I don't think most people have a problem with gestures for those sorts of minor transactions.

[Mike Cash]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

[lexico]

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

I've never lived in Japan, but learned how to see this fine point since I got here.

[epigene]

Hello, everyone!

I was thinking of digesting what is being discussed here first before ever posting, but it's hard for me to follow everything (lack of time and my low-vision problem). So, here goes:

I chose #2 immediately, just thinking what I would do meeting a stranger who externally appears to be foreign, in some street in downtown Tokyo.

I have lived most of my life in Japan and in living where I live (western Tokyo) and working at home, I almost never meet Westerners. Only those I meet are people I know through work (an environment where everyone is expected to be able to speak at least Japanese and English--so I speak either language and no one minds) and tourists with their eyes glued to maps, standing in the streets of Shinjuku. (I really wonder where I can meet people like Maciamo-san and Pachipro-san!!)

I grew up seeing Americans (GIs) who never learned anything more than a few phrases in Japanese after several years or even decades of living in Japan and Japanese so hung up on their inferiority of not being able to speak English. When I saw Westerners speaking Japanese on TV (like Jeff Berkland (spelling??) and Thane Camus), I was in awe. I'm really happy to see the growing number of Japanese-speaking foreigners but never had the opportunity to meet them.

Well, I made acquaintance in the past with some married to Japanese, but their Japanese capabilities were limited. So, I ended up speaking English to avoid misunderstandings. I also felt that they would feel their limitations in communicating in Japanese and become embarrassed.

So, my choice is based on my past experiences. (Sorry for the disorganized ramblings.)

[epigene]

This is interesting, so I'll give my own answers, too.

"When the guest/stranger is Japanese."
1. Is using simple, polite gesture, together with polite words, considered acceptable in Japanese culture in general?

Depends on what gestures you're talking about.

"A Japanese person meets a foreigner (US citizen, American, European, African, Asian, Australian) as total stangers on the street or in a shop."
2. What is the standard way for a Japanese person to greet the stranger who looks like a foreigner?
What are the first things to say/do to the foreigner?

I don't know what's standard, but a short greeting in Japanese followed by observation of reaction of the foreign person. Personally, I think reaction on the part of the Japanese depends on how the person feels about his/her English language ability. Most people have no confidence and react strangely, even from my point of view--such as speaking in Japanese only, leaving the location altogether to seek help, etc. I think the people living in the "shitamachi" area are more tolerant and confident of themselves, regardless of English skill level, and will speak to a foreigner in Japanese regardless of whether the person understands them or not.

3. Do many Japanese think that speaking Japanese to a foreigner is impolite?

No. The need to speak English to a foreign-looking person is imprinted in the minds of the Japanese through education, with teachers imparting this belief.

4. Do many Japanese think that asking a foreigner's Japanese ability is rude?

Depends on how you met the person, I guess.

5. Is it emabrassing for a Japanese to say, "I cannot speak English."

Yes, embarrassing, but they do it to escape what they think is humiliation of not being able to speak English.

6. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner will be embarassed to say, "I cannot speak Japanese" ?

No, I think the number of Japanese-speaking foreigners is not large enough for the Japanese in general to think that there are in fact foreigners who speak Japanese well.

7. Do many Japanese wish to practice English with an English speaking person?

Yes, VERY, VERY MUCH!!

8. Do many Japanese think that the Japanese language is unique, and difficult to learn for Japanese themselves? (speech, reading, writing, etc.)

Many say so, but that claim is for self-justification (the other side of not being able to speak English) and theories on linguistic uniqueness propounded in the past.

9. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner (Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian,) speaking Japanese is bad, unusual, surprising, suspicious, or intimidating?

Yes, it's still unusual and surprising.

10. Is complementing on someone's skill in anything (including language) considered okay when you it many times?

Once is enough! But, people (especially the elderly) who are really impressed would say it many tiimes.

11. Is complementing someone many times ever considered rude or sarcastic?

Depends on the situation, as mentioned in #10. I think most don't have malicious intentions--only sense of inferiority, backwardness, and lack of awareness that Westerners, especially Europeans, have toward the cultures and languages around the world.

Maybe I'm not typically Japanese, but I think I speak for many Japanese (at least the ones I know).

[Glenn]

Maybe I'm not typically Japanese, but I think I speak for many Japanese (at least the ones I know).

I think this is funny, because I thought the same thing of myself (replace "Japanese" with "American") after reading Cultural Divide between US and Europe, and a few other threads similar to that one. Maybe none of us here on this forum are typical any nationality.

[Pachipro]

My curiosity seems to have interrupted you.
I'm sorry.

Please don't be sorry your input is wanted and is just as important as anyone else's. I give you much credit for trying to communicate in English on this topic. Thank You.

(I really wonder where I can meet people like Maciamo-san and Pachipro-san!!)

Thank you for your input on this topic. Your answers are very informative and most important coming from a Japanese person. Concerning the above quote, I'm a little unclear as to what kind of people are you referring to? I think I have made it quite clear in my posts that I am in disagreement with Maciamo concerning the kinds of Japanese people he meets and the kind of Japanese people I have met over the years in Japan.

The way he says the Japanese treat him when he speaks Japanese and the way they treat me when I speak Japanese are quite the opposite in that I have not experienced some the things he has.

While my experiences in speaking and dealing with Japanese have been pleasent, his has not been so pleasent and we sort of disagree on the reasons.

If you're talking about the Japanese who sometimes do not "hear" us when we are speaking Japanese or the Japanese who ask us many times if we like sushi, can use chopsticks, etc., then you are correct. However, it happens all the time to many of us on this forum. Maciamo and I also disagree on our reactions to these questions and such.

I am leaving for Japan tomorrow morning for a 12 day visit and will be interacting with the Japanese on an almost daily basis from shopping, eating out, meeting friends, playing pachinko and pachislo etc. and will be extra diligent this trip to notice the reactions of the Japanese when I interact with them in Japanese.

[Maciamo]

I think the people living in the "shitamachi" area are more tolerant and confident of themselves, regardless of English skill level, and will speak to a foreigner in Japanese regardless of whether the person understands them or not.

Well, I live in Tokyo's shitamachi (so East Tokyo), and that is where I have had the most problems with people making gestures and feigning not to understand (they were almost all above 50 years old, though, but there are lots of older people in shitamachi). But it's true that it is also mostly in shitamachi that some yakuza-looking guys start shouting strange things when I quietly walk in the street (very un-Japanese !), although that only happened 3 times in 3 years.

[Elizabeth]

Well, I live in Tokyo's shitamachi (so East Tokyo), and that is where I have had the most problems with people making gestures and feigning not to understand (they were almost all above 50 years old, though, but there are lots of older people in shitamachi). But it's true that it is also mostly in shitamachi that some yakuza-looking guys start shouting strange things when I quietly walk in the street (very un-Japanese !), although that only happened 3 times in 3 years.

I've also been patronized and encountered more discrimination in Shinjuku or Kamitakaido (where I stay) than Yanaka. Shitamachi people do tend to be older and practice a more relaxed lifestyle, so someone has always had time to show me around, discuss the cemetaries, point to the still standing Nagaya structures, generally showing great patience with my Japanese (which at last visit was still quite formative)....

[jt_]

When I saw Westerners speaking Japanese on TV (like Jeff Berkland (spelling??) and Thane Camus), I was in awe. I'm really happy to see the growing number of Japanese-speaking foreigners but never had the opportunity to meet them.

This may be a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to comment that in Thane Camus's case, he (at least to my knowledge -- I might be wrong about this) spent a significant portion of his childhood in Japan and went to elementary school (and middle school too?) in Japan, so he's basically a native speaker, and thus really shouldn't be lumped in with Westerners who have _learned_ Japanese as a second language.

What surprises me is when some Japanese people, even after hearing this, continue to be impressed at how well he speaks Japanese ("He sounds just like a Japanese person!"). To me, this sheds some light on the attitude that some (not all) Japanese have towards their language. It's as if the fact that he is ethnically Caucasian should somehow preclude him from being able to speak Japanese like a Japanese person, when in actuality, of course, a person of any nationality/ethnic background who grows up speaking a certain language(/languages) from childhood will typically grow up to be a native speaker of that language(/languages).

It's just kind of interesting to note, as nobody (or almost nobody) in the United States (and most other English-speaking countries, no doubt, but I'm only qualified to talk about the US) would be surprised to see, for example an Asian-looking person speaking English like an American. Hell, for all they know, the person might very well be (and most likely probably is) American.

Yet I get this sense that there would be some (again, not all) Japanese who would have a hard time accepting that a Westerner -- even one who was born and raised in Japan -- could be a native speaker of Japanese. I have the feeling this would be somewhat (though perhaps not completely) mitigated if the person in question were half-Japanese.

Of course, I don't believe that this is because the Japanese people who would feel that way are consciously prejudiced or racist -- it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries. Still, it's a rather interesting phenomenon.

(Just to clarify: though this post is in response to epigene-san's post, I don't mean to suggest that she holds any of the opinions I make reference to here -- it was just her mention of Thane Camus that got me thinking about this)

[Maciamo]

... it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries.

Not sure if that is "extremely, extremely rare". I know a few people in that case. A few famous Japn-related writers have also been raised in Japan : Alex Kerr (author of Lost Japan and Dogs & Demons), Nathalie Nothomb (author of "Stupeurs et Tremblements", famous to French speakers). I think it's more common with Americans, as many were children of US staff during the occupation, or US soldiers later. In Nathalie Nothomb's case, she was the daughter of the Belgian ambassador to Japan. A French guy I know who was raised in Japan, studied only a Japanese school (and still live in Japan), is also the son of someone from the embassy. I guess there must be quite a few cases like that, given the number of long-term embassy staff and US soldiers in Japan.

Contrarily to adults, those children raised in Japan have a greater chance to pick up the language, especially if their parents allow them to go to Japanese schools or if they get the opportunity to get Japanese friends.

[lexico]

Welcome to the thread, epigene-san!
Of all the interesting things that you said in your first post, I find the following especially worthy of attention.

I almost never meet Westerners. Only those I meet are people I know through work (an environment where everyone is expected to be able to speak at least Japanese and English--so I speak either language and no one minds) and tourists with their eyes glued to maps, standing in the streets of Shinjuku...
I grew up seeing Americans (GIs) who never learned anything more than a few phrases in Japanese after several years or even decades of living in Japan...
I made acquaintance in the past with some married to Japanese, but their Japanese capabilities were limited. So, I ended up speaking English to avoid misunderstandings. I also felt that they would feel their limitations in communicating in Japanese and become embarrassed.

Does everyone mean every Japanese, or both Japanese and foreigners?
From interacting with the few foreigners you'd met or seen thru work, those tourists in Shinjuku, the American GI's, and those married to Japanese, few of them spoke much Japanese, and none like Maciamo or PachiPro. (correct?)

If that was the case, the Japanese are not to be blamed for having the preconception that Japanese is indeed hard to learn, and that Westerners are genuinely handicapped when learning Japanese.

Now this is in comparison to the learned Japanese who were able to accomplish the highly difficult task of culturally assimilating most Western notions either as phonetic loans (normally written in katakana) or calques via classical kanji more than a hundred years ago.
Back then, the Japanese cultural elite learned everything they could about the West, including the Western languages.

But Westerners in general ignored the importance of learning Japanese. (true?)
Then who should be considered superior, just looking at the language situation ?
(historically, in the 1860's-1900's for example)
In other words, Westerners brought it upon themselves in a way; they inherited the sins of their forefathers !
Do you think this kind of explanation is far-fetched ?
But then, why didn't these Westerners not learn Japanese when they had the chance ???
Do you think Westerners at some point in time felt vastly superior to the Japanese (or Asians) in general, and because of it considered the Japanese tongue unworthy of learning ?

and Japanese so hung up on their inferiority of not being able to speak English.

Do you think this feeling of "inferiority" can also be the result of losing WWII ?
(in all the possible connotations of this negative history from the Japanese' view)

Is it possible that this "feeling inferior" came first, and then the "language block" came about as a result of it ?
Again, do you think I am overly stretching my imagination ?
Just wanted to ask you these troubling questions to get it off my chest.

EDIT: I agree with jt's observation because of the reasons I find probable in the above.

What surprises me is when some Japanese people, even after hearing this, continue to be impressed at how well he speaks Japanese ("He sounds just like a Japanese person!"). To me, this sheds some light on the attitude that some (not all) Japanese have towards their language. It's as if the fact that he is ethnically Caucasian should somehow preclude him from being able to speak Japanese like a Japanese person...

Yet I get this sense that there would be some (again, not all) Japanese who would have a hard time accepting that a Westerner -- even one who was born and raised in Japan -- could be a native speaker of Japanese...

Of course, I don't believe that this is because the Japanese people who would feel that way are consciously prejudiced or racist -- it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries.

The extreme rarity of a Westerner speaking fluent Japanese in the past may very well be the cause of the misconception in the minds of the Japanese as you say here.

[jt_]

But then, why didn't these Westerners not learn Japanese when they had the chance ???
Do you think Westerners at some point in time felt vastly superior to the Japanese or Asians in general, and because of it considered the Japanese tongue unworthy of learning ?

I think it's much more likely that they simply felt that they could get by without learning it. I mean, when you consider that most of them were living in military bases where they could get by speaking English all the time and had more contact with English speakers than Japanese speakers, and that most of them probably had no intention of remaining in Japan any longer than they had to, is it really that surprising that they wouldn't put forth the massive effort that would be required to achieve advanced proficiency in Japanese? I'm not saying that I agree with this line of thinking, but it certainly isn't completely bizarre to me -- especially if I try to put myself in the position of e.g. an American serviceman in Japan. I think saying that they necessarily felt "superior" to Japanese/Asians or found the language "unworthy of learning" is a bit too strong.

[lexico]

I think it's much more likely that they simply felt that they could get by without learning it. I mean, when you consider that most of them were living in military bases where they could get by speaking English all the time and had more contact with English speakers than Japanese speakers, and that most of them probably had no intention of remaining in Japan any longer than they had to, is it really that surprising that they wouldn't put forth the massive effort that would be required to achieve advanced proficiency in Japanese? I'm not saying that I agree with this line of thinking, but it certainly isn't completely bizarre to me -- especially if I try to put myself in the position of e.g. an American serviceman in Japan. I think saying that they necessarily felt "superior" to Japanese/Asians or found the language "unworthy of learning" is a bit too strong.

I'm sorry. I've been excercising a bit of anachronism and extreme characterization here.
Now for clarity's sake, let us limit ourselves to the occupation period and thenafter. Your saying is that in the minds of the US sevicemen during that time, Japanese wasn't necessary and wasn't worth the effort of learning.

[Maciamo]

Then who should be considered superior, just looking at the language situation ?
(historically, in the 1860's-1900's for example)
...
But then, why didn't these Westerners not learn Japanese when they had the chance ???
Do you think Westerners at some point in time felt vastly superior to the Japanese (or Asians) in general, and because of it considered the Japanese tongue unworthy of learning ?

I don't think that all Westerners overlooked the learning of Japanese. Take someone like James Curtis Hepburn (1815-1911), who created the romaji system in 1867 (just one year before Meiji !) or European writer Lafcadio Hearn (1850-1904), who became Japanese (and took the name "Koizumi Yagumo") and became one of the most famous "Japanese" writer of his time.

[SkippyDaStudent85]

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.

[Elizabeth]

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.

Are you talking about asking a Japanese-looking person if they know Japanese or from the perspective of them asking a foreigner ?

[SkippyDaStudent85]

Are you talking about asking a Japanese-looking person if they know Japanese or from the perspective of them asking a foreigner ?

It was from the point of view of anyone dealing with foreigners, in general. Let me clarify my statement.

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.

Let's say that I am a Japanese person. I see someone who seems obviously foreign (say a VERY caucasian American, like me IRL) to the country. Now, as someone with common sense, I would like to think the American knows Japanese, being as he is in Japan. Being the same person of common sense, I cannot assume he knows Japanese because not everyone who travels to a foreign country knows the native language of that country's people. For this reason, it would make slightly more sense to ask him if he knows Japanese and have to apologize than to assume he does and address him as such.

[Elizabeth]

It was from the point of view of anyone dealing with foreigners, in general. Let me clarify my statement.



Let's say that I am a Japanese person. I see someone who seems obviously foreign (say a VERY caucasian American, like me IRL) to the country. Now, as someone with common sense, I would like to think the American knows Japanese, being as he is in Japan. Being the same person of common sense, I cannot assume he knows Japanese because not everyone who travels to a foreign country knows the native language of that country's people. For this reason, it would make slightly more sense to ask him if he knows Japanese and have to apologize than to assume he does and address him as such.

There is nothing about going to the country that is going to make you learn it unfortunately besides years and years of study....something you would assume vacationers or short-term tourists are willing to put in for the pleasure of pachinko or a Japanese baseball game ? Sorry to burst your expectations, but even a great many foreign students of the language living and breathing the air can barely hold a reasonable conversation. I was thinking it was illogical to know a priori which language you'd ask in....

[Mike Cash]

I see your point. Although it would seem logical that someone in a foreign country would know the language (unless they are completely mental) of the country, you can't just assume they do. That is why I said it is more logical to ask, even if it it barely more logical.

That wasn't quite my point. My point about it not being the most logical is that the answer to the question soon becomes evident even if you skip it.

If you just start out talking to the person in Japanese and things go well, then yes, he understands.

If he stands there with a blank look on his face, then no, he doesn't. Switch to English and try again.

Asking them if they do or do not understand Japanese is a needless step.