How much freedom do you give to your partner ?

[nekosasori]

Please remember that I am not asking anybody to advice me on my personal life. I don't expect anybody here to know better than me what to do or to find even a fragment of "solution". The purpose of this thread is to know more about what you (all) find normal or not, then developed into also knowing more about the Japanese morals regarding to cheating and lying. Confirmations, infirmations or personal stories on the subject are welcome, but there is no need to talk about what I should do with my wife (that's offtopic).

It was my impression that this was the "Love and Relationship Advice" forum; I've read the disclaimer sticky message, but I still apologize if I have offered unwelcome feedback, but surely if you wanted a survey on views the Serious Topics\Opinions subforum would have been just as appropriate to place this?

In any case, I personally have never met any Japanese person who would lie about a serious issue such as sex to their partner. However I would posit that "white lies" (which exist in every culture to varying extents) becomes an integral part of life in ANY insular country (I see this all the time in Ireland), regardless of whether "western" views dominate or not. This is because white lies are the most convenient way of avoiding confrontation, of "stirring up trouble", or of "standing out" in the crowd.

I think, given what I have seen comparing the Irish "western" society with Japanese society, that there are far more similarities between them than differences, perhaps surprisingly. Despite strong Catholic morals (and the laws to enforce them, e.g. abortions and morning-after pills are illegal still), Irish societal problems are much the same as Japanese ones (and people go over to the UK for abortions), in my view.

I also believe that the perception that the Japanese are far more likely to cheat or lie compared with people from "western" countries is highly exaggerated, and that even the personal anecdotes that one may hear in Japan from Japanese is also exaggerated - people universally misrepresent themselves to varying extents. In fact, I would think that cheating rates are probably comparable if not identical, and that it is the hypocrisy of western societies that means that people don't talk openly about being cheated on or having cheated themselves; the Japanese may be more truthful because it's not taboo.

[Maciamo]

I think, given what I have seen comparing the Irish "western" society with Japanese society, that there are far more similarities between them than differences, perhaps surprisingly. Despite strong Catholic morals (and the laws to enforce them, e.g. abortions and morning-after pills are illegal still), Irish societal problems are much the same as Japanese ones (and people go over to the UK for abortions), in my view.

Abortion is not illegal in Japan. On the contrary, it seems pretty common.

I have never been to Ireland (one of the few EU countries I haven't visited, along with the Nordic countries), but they might be quite different from other Europeans for several reasons. First they have been isolated for quite some time and don't share the monarchic history of other European countries where the kings and queens intermarried constantlycreating one big European royal family. Then, the Irish are some of the last people to still speak a Celtic language (with the Welsh), which is completely different from all Latin and Germanic languages in all Western Europe (except for the Basque). Their insularity and different language (although it's mostly English now, but in Japan too ) has probably a lot to do with possible similarities with the Japanese. However my image is that the Irish are far from being the most polite, respectful or hardworking people on earth, which sets them at odd with the Japanese.

I also believe that the perception that the Japanese are far more likely to cheat or lie compared with people from "western" countries is highly exaggerated, and that even the personal anecdotes that one may hear in Japan from Japanese is also exaggerated - people universally misrepresent themselves to varying extents. In fact, I would think that cheating rates are probably comparable if not identical, and that it is the hypocrisy of western societies that means that people don't talk openly about being cheated on or having cheated themselves; the Japanese may be more truthful because it's not taboo.

I disagree with that. It is rather the hypocrisy of the Japanese that make other people (like me before coming to Japan) think that they are not the kind of people to cheat, lie or even be very liberal about sex, coming from a very formal society with lots of rules and restrictions. But this is just the image they give to the world because their uchi and soto concept prevent them from talking openly about such things with foreigners. As I say, most Japanese would even think that French or Italian people are incurable cheaters. But having a pretty good knowledge of both French and Italian culture and people, I think this is mostly due to the "romantic" image (actually romanticism implies not having sex, but in common parlance it refers more to amours) of France of Italy. Japan does not seem romantic at all (from outside), even the opposite. I think that the average Europeans are more worried about morals and STD's than the Japanese, and therefore think more carefully before cheating. Be sure that my image before knowing Japan was that of a country of "honest" people (i.e. people who do not lie and cheat). But having lived in 6 (Western) countries before Japan, I can assure you that nowhere else have I heard more white lies (even in England) and heard the word cheating ("uwaki") on TV, in the streets or among conversations overheard in cafes, restaurants or with friends, than in Japan. As a matter of fact, it's hard to turn on the TV and not find a programme where people have fun talking about "uwaki" and marriage, and quizzing each other about whether it has happned to them, how they would react, or just whether they would allow their partner to cheat on them (that's on TV, I remind) or not. They don't look concerned. They look like children talking about a game.

[nekosasori]

Abortion is not illegal in Japan. On the contrary, it seems pretty common.

Yes, I'm aware of that fact. I was just emphasizing (or trying to!) the perception that most people have of Irish and Japanese societies being polar opposites; it is my opinion that that is hardly the case.

I can assure you that nowhere else have I heard more white lies (even in England) and heard the word cheating ("uwaki") on TV, in the streets or among conversations overheard in cafes, restaurants or with friends, than in Japan.

What sorts of white lies have you heard (both in Japan and in western countries)?

Also, just because the masukomi makes uwaki a popular topic to discuss, doesn't mean that everyone is actually practicing it. Many US media sources (Fox News, even CNN) have biases towards covering topics like Christian fundamentalist-related movements (like the campaign in the south to only teach abstinence instead of sex ed to teens), and other "newsworthy" (read: Jerry Springer types of) topics. Obviously not everyone in the US can be pigeonholed into being Christian let alone fundamentalist, and while I can also be overheard discussing Republican politics or pro-life stances or the War on Terror, I don't support any one of those.

Also I was wondering -how do you consolidate the two seemingly contradictory observations that people distinctly keep "soto" and "uchi" separate, yet openly discuss uwaki experiences on national TV? There's a logical disconnect there, no?

[Maciamo]

What sorts of white lies have you heard (both in Japan and in western countries)?

For anything imaginable. Of course for small things like saying that you like your friend's new clothes, the food grandma cooked, or when you meet someone for the first time they'll flatter you or even say that they are also inerested in this or that (just to be polite, as in fact they really couldn't care less). These are all die to the uchi (inside) and soto (outside) concept. Let's say there is always the public version ("tatemae") which contrasts with what people really think ("honne") and no Western country has developed and institutionalised this the way Japan has. Basically, you just cannot expect people to express their true opinion on TV, at work or with people they are not intimate with (best friends or family). However, this pretty easy to get used to.

The worst is that even in the "uchi" (with intimates, eg. my wife) white lies happen all the time, even when you ask people to be frank and you don't want to hear lies. They just cannot say something that is not a lie in disguise. Here is a simple example; I ask my wife what she wants to do that Sunday, Shall we go to the restaurant, cinema, a park, shopping, somewhere else ? I had better not make her feel that I would prefer to go to one of these places in particular, because otherwise she'll just tell me she wants to go there too. It's only when we are there (or after coming back !) that I may hear her say "but in fact I didin't want to go to A, I wanted to go to B. So I ask her why she didn't just tell me when I asked her. Sometimes I ask several times and ask again "are you really sure that is what you want to do" because this problem happens often. It's very tiresome. But these examples are for pretty benign things. It does happen for more serious things to the exact same extent, so that I can never know for sure how people (even my wife !) feel.

You will understand that, with my outspokenness, I am not used to reading between the lines and understand that when people say "yes" without jumping with excitement it really means "no" or "not sure". After 3 years I am not able to discern some "tatemae" (not all), but that still does not tell me what is the "honne", and there is no way to guess if people don't want to tell you. So, can you frankly say that there is a single Western country like Japan regarding (white) lies ?

Also, just because the masukomi makes uwaki a popular topic to discuss, doesn't mean that everyone is actually practicing it. Many US media sources (Fox News, even CNN) have biases towards covering topics like Christian fundamentalist-related movements (like the campaign in the south to only teach abstinence instead of sex ed to teens), and other "newsworthy" (read: Jerry Springer types of) topics. Obviously not everyone in the US can be pigeonholed into being Christian let alone fundamentalist, and while I can also be overheard discussing Republican politics or pro-life stances or the War on Terror, I don't support any one of those.

The US is a very cosmopolitan society, with people believing in about any religion on earth, and with very different political opinions and morals. In other words it is the exact opposiet of Japan, which is a very homogenous society, not only in race and language, but in the way people think and behave. In other words, if you take 1,000 Japanese people and quiz 20% of them about various things and their opinion is basically the same, it is possible to assume that most of the remaining 80% think the same way too. In the US it just doesn't work because people are all too different. So the discussion "between Japanese" on Japanese TV usually reflect pretty well the national consciousness, especially that the programmes I refered to are on the 6 main (free) channels (NHK, Nihon TV, Fuji TV, Asahi TV, TBS, Tokyo TV), not on cable or satelite TV nor on some special channel owned by a religious or political group. This is the TV all Japanese people watch (and there aren't many such channels).

Also I was wondering -how do you consolidate the two seemingly contradictory observations that people distinctly keep "soto" and "uchi" separate, yet openly discuss uwaki experiences on national TV? There's a logical disconnect there, no?

"uchi" and "soto" is not a fixed group of people. Sometimes (on such TV programmes) the "uchi" part is all the Japanese (as opposed to foreigners). That depends a lot on the topic. In a company, an employee's personal matters will be "tatemae", but discussing business will be "uchi". If people from one company meet people from another company, their stance become "tatemae" again. For sex-related topics on TV, I can feel it is more "uchi", as anybody can have sex with anybody. Anyway, they usually discuss the "cases" of people whose name was changed and people can vote "acceptable" or "not acceptable". It cannot be tatemae because there is no common stance on such topics. Frankly, what could "tatemae" be when you ask some owmen whether they'd prefer a husband who has a "mother-complex" or one who is a "stalker" ?

[nekosasori]

This is all very interesting, thanks Maciamo!

So, can you frankly say that there is a single Western country like Japan regarding (white) lies ?

Yes, although in an unofficial (tacit) fashion, I will make the claim that white lies are a veritable institution also in Ireland. One of its similarities (setting aside work ethic ;) ) to Japan is how they also have traditionally had an extremely homogenous population (culturally speaking, despite the history of intermittent invaders, long-term occupation by the UK, and the very recent - last five years - influx of foreigners from both within the new expanded EU and from countries that produce refugees), people will perenially put up such a thick facade that I never know what anyone really feels about anything. Then again, I also find it hard to even sustain a conversation about controversial topics - people I've gotten to know are clearly uncomfortable about disagreement and of confronting others about it.

Moreover, I have observed that when people gossip about others, this gossip NEVER gets returned to the person about whom it is. This means that friendship, as I define it (where my friends would tell things to be straight even if it bruises my ego) is extremely rare in Ireland. Acquaintances with whom you'd go to the pub all the time or otherwise socialize (or just work with) will talk all about their insights about you or note your mannerisms, attire, etc. to everyone else and this feedback never returns to you personally. So if you don't want to be the subject of conjecture and analysis, you always have to show up at the pub so they can't talk about you. I find this insidious, frustrating, and frankly, rude. I'm also a "say what you mean and mean what you say" sort of person, in large part because my parents didn't deal well with the honne/tatemae dichotomy. I find it frustrating that I can't make good headway into really getting to know someone because the signal to noise ratio in conversations is so abysmally small. Add to that the fact that 100% of people whom I have gotten to know at work who are also foreign have left or will be leaving the country permanently, I'm feeling pretty isolated here emotionally (since my husband is my sole source of in-person support).

You say:

Basically, you just cannot expect people to express their true opinion on TV, at work or with people they are not intimate with (best friends or family).

Yet, you also say

So the discussion "between Japanese" on Japanese TV usually reflect pretty well the national consciousness, especially that the programmes I refered to are on the 6 main (free) channels

This is the conflict to which I was trying to refer in my last post. If people aren't telling the truth on TV, how can they truly reflect the "national consciousness": if someone says what they think they are expected to say rather than what they really think - the "tatemae" - then wouldn't they just be parroting what they perceive society is wishing them to behave rather than how they would, in real life, behave?)

[RockLee]

haha..is that WHY WOMEN CHEAT banner set on purpose ???

ontopic: I want to discuss later, but right now I'm short on time with studies..

[Maciamo]

Moreover, I have observed that when people gossip about others, this gossip NEVER gets returned to the person about whom it is. This means that friendship, as I define it (where my friends would tell things to be straight even if it bruises my ego) is extremely rare in Ireland. Acquaintances with whom you'd go to the pub all the time or otherwise socialize (or just work with) will talk all about their insights about you or note your mannerisms, attire, etc. to everyone else and this feedback never returns to you personally. So if you don't want to be the subject of conjecture and analysis, you always have to show up at the pub so they can't talk about you. I find this insidious, frustrating, and frankly, rude.

I know, it also happens in some other European countries. But these are not lies, it's hypocrisy or "talking behind people's back". I think it's more common in Western country than in Japan, while white lies are much more common in Japan.

This is the conflict to which I was trying to refer in my last post. If people aren't telling the truth on TV, how can they truly reflect the "national consciousness": if someone says what they think they are expected to say rather than what they really think - the "tatemae" - then wouldn't they just be parroting what they perceive society is wishing them to behave rather than how they would, in real life, behave?)

It's not really a conflict, it's just that I didn't take enough time to explain what kind of things people usually don't say on TV. If you ask people about their opinion of foreigners, or their political ideas or what they would define as good behaviour, they will usually answer pretty much the same. They will also rarely say that they dislike such or such celebrity so as not to create tensions or negative feelings. But when it comes to talking sex, the Japanese are surprisingly uninhibited. So much that if they managed to talk like that about politics or education, lot's of problems would be solved. The talk about sex are not the educational type, but almost always the perverted kind or about marriage, divorce and "uwaki". Never have I seen a country so eager to talk about "uwaki", perverted sex, marriage and divorce on TV or in social occasions (between friends, colleagues...) than Japan. Maybe that is also why hostess bar (where customers usually talk about sex-related topics) are so popular in Japan, or why all convenience stores' shelves are filled half with porn/erotic magazines and these mags are advertised inside all train lines. Sex, along with food, is a favourite discussion topic in Japan.

[nekosasori]

If you ask people about their opinion of foreigners, or their political ideas or what they would define as good behaviour, they will usually answer pretty much the same. They will also rarely say that they dislike such or such celebrity so as not to create tensions or negative feelings.

The same phenomenon can be seen in Ireland (where there are four main TV stations; RTE 1 & 2, TV3 and TG-4).

So let's go back to the example you cited - the "kyuukyoku no sentaku" - desperate choice - which kind of guy would you rather marry, a mazacon or a stalker-type? Well, it's purely theoretical isn't it? Even if a woman were to openly and even strongly state a preference of one over the other, in real life she isn't 1) only faced with those choices of the men she has chosen to date 2) necessarily going to seek out the type she prefers, or 3)even necessarily going to get married at all (two of my relatives, who are of the older generation (aged in their early 70s now) never got married despite all the familial and societal pressures to do so, for instance). Both have only ever lived in Japan (Kanagawa-ken).

Since these kinds of racy "fun" programs aren't posing questions to be used in deep psychosocial analysis of society (or if they were, how valid would they be? Wouldn't an actual, large-scale study of married people who take psychological tests to see if they do exhibit either Oedipal tendencies or stalker tendencies - or both... be a lot more useful?) I would personally take anything proferred on TV with a very, very large grain of salt.

I would also argue that sex is a universally piquant discussion topic that will even come up on Western media (the TV program "Eurotrash" comes to mind - a UK thing which you may have seen). Even if NHK and the other TV channels you mentioned are "uchi", the programs usually select people who pass audition levels by providing entertaining answers, or street surveys will (if not live) edit what's shown for the "highlights" - it's not a truly random sample of the population that you're seeing and hearing. I strongly believe that nature has a much bigger impact on how people develop than nurture - in every family I've known with siblings (who are often the same sex, even close in age, brought up in the same environment by the same parents), these people turn out to be extremely different in behaviour, views, and even values. So even if insular cultures practice conformity on the surface as if it were martial law, the individual variances would be huge, even if barely imperceptible to someone on the "soto" (or even "uchi"!).

I think that one can't really justify equating a societally-instilled uninhibited and pragmatic view of all humans having sexual desire, to an entire population of many million (albeit "homogenous") people feeling free to cheat right and left on their spouses. And even talking the talk (claiming to be sexually liberal if not downright promiscuous) is not directly correlated with walking the walk (actually having indiscriminate sex), as it were.

[TuRbOxChAz]

i think its safe to say that in every relationship, there might be the slight occasion when the significant other thinks about someone else. i mean, everyone has an ideal mate. chances are, you didn't find your "ideal" mate, but u darn as hell found a good mate. your significant other isn't the ideal, but when that someone pulls along with one quality that is ideal and your sig. other doesn't have, you will feel a bit attracted.
this is where temptation comes in. if maybe you're too attracted, you get tempted and you lose control, depending on your self-discipline.

anyway, successful relationships require good communication (being open and honest about everything; not fighting over the little things; just talking often like "how was your day"), respect, companionship (like spending quality time with them), commitment (be committed to the relationship; think that in EVERY relationship, theres always a conflict. you're bound to fight or argue about something. just don't do it too often), affection, ability to deal with stress (not only stress in the relationship, but at work or school, or with kids), responsibility, unselfishness, sensitivity (understand your sig. other's feelings), honesty and trust, adaptation (try to adapt to your sig. other's habits and behaviors).
From my sociology book.

of course, if you're married, a reason that its hard to stay with your spouse is because you've been with them for quite a while and you're simply "bored". thats where commitment comes to play. also, your "fire" has probably dimmed, so do something romantic and fun to spice it up.

[kiedistidus]

i let my girlfreind do pretty much what she wants when she wants within reason i.e no cheating or obvious flirting but i have a question,does wanting to spend time on my own make me a cold or bad boyfreind i love my personal space and company for instance when i travel to japan next year it will be a one man mission as i would like to enjoy the experience without scheduales or worrys(hassle) but my girlfreind gets really strung up about this type of thing.am I being cold or in short does this make me a bad boyfreind???I love her to bits but it really confuses me that some people need constant attention.

[maushan3]

but i have a question,does wanting to spend time on my own make me a cold or bad boyfreind i love my personal space and company for instance when i travel to japan next year it will be a one man mission as i would like to enjoy the experience without scheduales or worrys(hassle) but my girlfreind gets really strung up about this type of thing.am I being cold or in short does this make me a bad boyfreind???I love her to bits but it really confuses me that some people need constant attention.

You are in your right to spend time without her. Remember, you got to have her to miss you. You cannot have her with you at every moment or else she and/or you will lose interest in each other. It will take that spark off the relationship. So you are not a bad boyfriend by wanting to have a beer with the boys. For example, she calls you to see what's up, you tell her you are busy and then, when you have time, you call her.

You love her to bits, ok. You say you are going to Tokyo by yourself and want to have a little fun, so you do that. Tell her that she needs to be a good girl or else you will find yourself a girl in Japan, haha, but remember, do it charming and be funny, she will be quite amazed in a good way.

Mauricio

[frostyg02uk]

Ok firstly...where the hell did this come from? why is it here now? why did i just read all of them and now need to bring up a ghost from the past?

Moving on. Quite often my gf would say lets go out/to a friends house/ a bar/ something to eat but if i didnt feel like it id say no and she'd go on her own no problem. Do i know if she ever cheated on me? no. but that works both ways. She once said "whats the point in cheating? if your going to do that you might as well just break up anyway".
I think my tolerence is higher more so because i know all of her friends. I think if a person does cheat no matter how clever they "think" they are they will be caught eventually especially the more you seem to trust them the more they will slip up and get lazy about it. I could try and offer some advice...but maybe you have sorted your problems out one way or another by now. But it would be nice to get an update haha.

[Kinsao]

Wow this is an old thread. I can't remember if I posted on here already, but I think not. Anyway, my two cents about the poll...

It's ok to meet one's ex-boyfriend/girlfriend from time to time
I wouldn't have a problem with my partner meeting up with his ex from time to time, as long as they weren't continuing a relationship above and beyond that of friends of course! If I felt like he was lying to me and still 'seeing' her in a way other than friendship, I'd have to re-examine the whole relationship and why I didn't trust him or if he was lying to me. I'm sure that if he was genuinely seeing her only for friendship's sake and thought it was upsetting me he would agree to cut down on how often he saw her, or whatever, or even to meet her together instead of on his own. If he was telling me the truth I'm sure he would have no problem about reassuring me on this one.

It's ok to have lunch/dinner at a restaurant with another man/woman
Of course it's okay, if he tells me beforehand; it could be a business colleague, or an opposite-sex friend... if he didn't tell me about it, maybe I would think there was something to hide, though. But otherwise it is fine.

It's ok to do activities (sports, karaoke...) with another man/woman
Generally it is okay as far as I'm concerned, but to be quite honest I would rather be invited too! because it's fun to do these things together!

It's ok to go to nightclubs without one's partner
My partner doesn't go clubbing (except fetish clubs, where he'd be with me by default) so it's not really an issue... if it was like a party with family or a bunch of friends who all went out drinking and then clubbing... like a stag do or something... I wouldn't have a problem with that. If it was a night out with a mixed-sex bunch of pals that was planned in advance I'd expect him to invite me too, but if I couldn't make it I wouldn't have a problem with him going by himself. Going out by himself on the pull is off-limits though!

It's ok to have sex with somebody else
No way!

It's ok to travel (and share the same hotel room) with another man/woman
Travel is okay (especially for work, where he deals regularly with men and women alike), but not sharing the hotel room... there's no 'reason'/'excuse' for it even in a business context.

I guess I'm pretty laid-back, but only because I trust my boy absolutely.

[Jaimie]

i think it's too extreme.. unless the other man is a brother or father or cousin, i wouldn't trust the other man.

[-Rudel-]

Me and My wife do everything together except going to each other's work places.

[maushan3]

From the little things I have seen in Japan, cheating can be very easily done and sadly it might be done since the husbands go to work really early and come back extremely late from the office, like at 11, so he just wants to eat and go to sleep right away, so it is kind of a problem, the overwork.

Mauricio

[Swordmaster]

Like most people would say, I would think it would depend on the situation and the people, but generally, I wouldn't like letting my love having sex with other people. Though, if it was her choice and I knew she still loved me, then I would probably come to accept it, eventually.

[Balling]

well, me and the wife have different hobbies
she goes with all her girlfriends from work (who are all marreid as well) and go to clubs
while i go out with all my friends and fly down the highways at night...its a win win situation

plus we are both good friends with some of out exes....im not worried
trust is the basis of a relationship and marriage

[melon]

well2...i never think to tell him what he should or should not do..it's up to him...really...

but,,who knows??

[annieannie44]

i trust who i love
................................

[bruno]

Mistrust is the enemy for every relationship!!
you never will be the owner of another person.It
needs tolerance for both parts!!