Should all Japanese directly address foreigners in Japanese ?

[Glenn]

I think it's justified for the Japanese to think whatever, but I think they should mostly speak to them in Japanese at first, assuming they may know at least a little be, because that is the country's language. Just like how foreigners come to the US, many people assume everyone knows some English. It's more of the responsibility of the person that entered the country not knowing the country's language to let others know they don't know the language, and residents that do know the language should assume who they're talking to knows at least some of the language.

I completely agree.

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

I think you're right. I, too, was thinking about that. One thing that drives me crazy is when Japanese people say that their language is hard. Maybe it's just me, but it's all a matter of familiarity. Once you get used to the syntax you're ready to go. There are so many things about Japanese that are so much simpler than English, Spanish, or French that it was quite a refreshing change to learn Japanese. I mean, the language only has two truly irregular verbs! How difficult is that?!

I will grant them that their writing system is probably the most complicated in the world, but that's a separate issue from knowing how to speak.

It seems that on the whole Japanese people think that they have the hardest language in the world, and there's no way anyone non-Japanese could possibly learn it. I would guess, though, that this way of thinking is probably on the way out with the high numbers of foreigners in Japan who speak Japanese. But it does point at a trend of Japanese pride and a belief that no one can understand them and that they are uniquely unique.

[Maciamo]

Once you get used to the syntax you're ready to go. There are so many things about Japanese that are so much simpler than English, Spanish, or French that it was quite a refreshing change to learn Japanese. I mean, the language only has two truly irregular verbs! How difficult is that?!

I will grant them that their writing system is probably the most complicated in the world, but that's a separate issue from knowing how to speak.

Completely agree with you !

It seems that on the whole Japanese people think that they have the hardest language in the world, and there's no way anyone non-Japanese could possibly learn it. I would guess, though, that this way of thinking is probably on the way out with the high numbers of foreigners in Japan who speak Japanese. But it does point at a trend of Japanese pride and a belief that no one can understand them and that they are uniquely unique.

I couldn't have said it better. In my opinion and experiene, French is one of the most difficult languages in the world (pronuciation, twisted grammar, very irregular spelling, inflexibility, tendecy of the French to prefer technical words even in informal situations, etc.) but the French take the opposite attitude of the Japanese. Although they know that theur language is ver difficult (esp. for beginners, who can't even hope having an easy sentence right), they expect foreigners in France to at least try to learn it.

It usually goes so far that even when they can speak English or another language in which they are addressed, they often pretend not to undestand or just answer in French. In fact, the French usually do more efforts to learn the basics of the local language (and culture) of the country they are visiting (especially in places where the locals aren't supposed to know French) than many other people, and they expect people visiting France to do the same, wherever they come from, and no matter how long they stay. That's why they will address any foreigner in French. If the foreigner cannot understand most Frencg will prefer speaking more slowly, or using simpler words, rather than switching to another language that they can speak.

The reason hidden in a typical French mind is that they should encourage foreigners to learn their language, rather than the opposite. However, the Japanese seem to do all they can to discourage foreigners to speak their language, even refusing to answer them in Japanese when addressed in Japanese.

Another interesting Japanese reaction is to laugh when they see that a foreigner can understand what they are saying between them or replies in Japanese to a question asked in (broken) English. They laugh because they feel uncomfortable with the idea of a foreigner being able to speak their language, especially if the foreigner speaks better Japanese than they can speak English.

[Pachipro]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Duo
From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

Well, you obviously hit it on the nail for the accuser, so to speak. But at the same time it sounds a little unfair for the accused somehow.

What makes me say this is the importance I put on member Hiroyuki Nagashima's vote for the first poll option. From his many posts that I have read with keen interest, I find nothing but respect for any foreigner on this forum; actually even more than that. This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.

Very well said lexico. I also find it very interesting that members Hiroyuki Nagashima and Yellow Emperor both selected Option 1 in their answers. I can't speak for Yellow Emperor, but we know that Mr. Nagashima is a Japanese whose English is not perfect, but uses translation software to offer his advise on these boards. I commend him on his efforts. However it would be nice to have his input on this topic as he selected a choice that most fluent residents abhor and sparked debate on this subject.

I've never had a shopkeeper ask if I speak English, either out of a lack of confidence in their ability to carry a conversation or because it really isn't necessary for the business at hand.

To smooth the encounter along, I usually take it on myself to make a point of speaking Japanese first which is generally sufficient for making the transaction work and finding what I came for. There has never really been an issue of not being remembered or of the clerk/owner insisting on practicing their English.

I have always had the same experience. I always walk into a place with confidence and speak Japanese first. If I can't find what I'm looking for I always ask and am treated with the same courtesy and respect accorded any Japanese customer. Maybe the Japanese sense this by my demeanor. I don't know.

[Pachipro]

Another annoying thing we haven't mentioned yet is that when a Western-looking and a Japanese-looking person person are together, the Japanese you are talking to will always automatically turn toward the Japanese-looking person. If I am with my wife, no matter if I ask information about trains, ask for a receipt at the restaurant, check-in at the airport, or buy tickets at the cinema, the Japanese staff always answer my question back to my wife, just ignoring me. That is very irritating when one wants to practice one's Japanese.

This is true as the same thing occassionally happens when I am out with my Japanese wife or Japanese friends. They will usually address them instead of me when it is I who am speaking in Japanese. My wife and I like to have fun with this aspect of the culture and have overcome this dilemma in two ways.

1. When they address her instead of me when it is I who am speaking, she will turn to them and say in forceful Japanese (unusual for a woman) something like, "Why are you asking me? Is his Japanese not good enough to understand? Did you not hear him? Please don't be disrespectful to my husband!"

They will usually be quite taken aback at this and become embarrassed. They will usually bow and apologize and start addressing me.

2. This one can be alot of fun. If they address her while ignoring me, my wife will start speaking English which will throw them for a loop! I will then say to the person, in Japanese, that my wife is not Japanese, but was born in America and cannot speak Japanese. You can just imagine the look of confusion and embarrassment on their faces when a foreigner is speaking Japanese and the Japanese-looking person is speaking English. From that moment on, especially in a restaurant, it is I who they will address.

We usually decide before going out or into a place what situation we will use before hand so we will both be prepared to act it out. Maybe you and your wife should try these scenarios.

Maybe your wife could say something similar to number 1 above while adding "He's been here 4 times this month and you still can't underestand him? Is his Japanese that bad or do you always discriminate against foreigners who can speak Japanese?" or "Is something wrong with your hearing? Can you not see that my husband is speaking Japanese?" Or something to that effect. I don't know what will work for you, but we have alot of fun and laughs with it rather than get irate over this aspect of their culture.

This may not be unique to Japan, but may be an aspect of Asian culture in general, I don't know. As an example, some time ago my wife and I went out to a Korean restaurant here in the states for some great Korean barbeque. The waitress being Korean started addressing my wife in Korean. When my wife began speaking English, she apologized and began addressing me. So even here, in the states, they addressed the Asian looking person assuming she was Korean while ignoring the Caucasian and this was in MY OWN COUNTRY! It didn't bother me in the least. We just had a laugh over it and enjoyed a great meal.

[quiet sunshine]

2. This one can be alot of fun. If they address her while ignoring me, my wife will start speaking English which will throw them for a loop! I will then say to the person, in Japanese, that my wife is not Japanese, but was born in America and cannot speak Japanese. You can just imagine the look of confusion and embarrassment on their faces when a foreigner is speaking Japanese and the Japanese-looking person is speaking English.

Hahahaha!That's so funny! great originality! I can imagine their expressions, poor Japanese!

[Maciamo]

Maybe your wife could say something similar to number 1 above while adding "He's been here 4 times this month and you still can't underestand him? Is his Japanese that bad or do you always discriminate against foreigners who can speak Japanese?" or "Is something wrong with your hearing? Can you not see that my husband is speaking Japanese?" Or something to that effect. I don't know what will work for you, but we have alot of fun and laughs with it rather than get irate over this aspect of their culture.

I'd like to try, but my wife is not at all the person to reply to people like that (too polite and soft-spoken). Just the fact that I mention the problem at home tend to make her uncomfortable. Her English is probably not good enough to try answering in English either. They will know immediately that she is faking.

This may not be unique to Japan, but may be an aspect of Asian culture in general, I don't know. As an example, some time ago my wife and I went out to a Korean restaurant here in the states for some great Korean barbeque. The waitress being Korean started addressing my wife in Korean. When my wife began speaking English, she apologized and began addressing me. So even here, in the states, they addressed the Asian looking person assuming she was Korean while ignoring the Caucasian and this was in MY OWN COUNTRY!

I have never had this problem in Chinese or Korean restaurants outside Japan. Even when we went to Korea, the locals seemed to understand that my wife was Japanese. Maybe that is a way of dressing or her face that looks more typically Japanese. She also had light brown eyes, which is extremely rare for East Asians.

[Maciamo]

I also find it very interesting that members Hiroyuki Nagashima and Yellow Emperor both selected Option 1 in their answers. I can't speak for Yellow Emperor, but we know that Mr. Nagashima is a Japanese...

Yellow Emperor seems to be from Taiwan.

[lexico]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

Japanese people say that their language is hard...
I will grant them that their writing system is probably the most complicated in the world...
It seems that on the whole Japanese people think that they have the hardest language in the world, and there's no way anyone non-Japanese could possibly learn it...
But it does point at a trend of Japanese pride and a belief that no one can understand them and that they are uniquely unique.

I think that most Japanese assume that foreigners cannot learn their language because its "ooh so difficult". In fact it may be one of the easiest language in the world except for the particles (which even the Japanese have problem with) and the kanji (not difficult, just a matter of time and practice).

Let's hold there for a moment and find out what was the cause for the Japanese to consider their language unique and difficult to learn. While many Westerners passed thru Japan and were exposed to the language, not many bothered to learn it as can be seen in the posts of epigene, jt, and pachipro in the folowing quotes.

I almost never meet Westerners. Only those I meet are people I know through work (an environment where everyone is expected to be able to speak at least Japanese and English--so I speak either language and no one minds) and tourists with their eyes glued to maps, standing in the streets of Shinjuku...
I grew up seeing Americans (GIs) who never learned anything more than a few phrases in Japanese after several years or even decades of living in Japan...
I made acquaintance in the past with some married to Japanese, but their Japanese capabilities were limited.

I think it's much more likely that they simply felt that they could get by without learning it. I mean, when you consider that most of them were living in military bases where they could get by speaking English all the time and had more contact with English speakers than Japanese speakers, and that most of them probably had no intention of remaining in Japan any longer than they had to, is it really that surprising that they wouldn't put forth the massive effort that would be required to achieve advanced proficiency in Japanese?

Not one of my friends, peers, or higher ranking personnel that I knew on that base took any time or effort to learn the language save for a few phrases that would get them by. In the end, I only knew of two people, both Navy personnel that did learn the language and eventually live and go to school in Japan like myself.

As jt_ said there was no need for them to learn. All business and shopping was conducted on the base in English and living on a base is no different than living in a small town in the US.
...
The same holds true for a lot of the kids of international businessmen and embassy people that I went to school with at Sophia University's International Division. Alot of them knew almost nothing of the Japanese culture or language and had no desire to learn. Even their parents were surprisingly ignorant when it came to Japanese and the Japanese culture.
...
they shopped at the international food stores, ate mostly western food and hob nobbed with only other foreigners or those of their culture. These were not only Americans, but Canadian, Middle Eastern, English, Dutch, German, you name it.

According to these posts, during the occupation period until quite recently, US servicemen considered the Japanese language "not necessary and not worth the trouble of learning." Furthemore they did not mingle with the Japanese either for practical purposes or for socializing.

Now whether this fact corroborated by the three individuals can be generalized to all foreigners during 1945 to recent times remains to be seen. Also, the general attitudes of foreigners in Japan from the Meji era down to 1945 regarding learning Japanese remains to be examained.

Although I should probably have to stack up more evidence to prove my point, I would say that the majority of foreigners/Westernere in Japan were not much different.

So I would hesitate to point the finger at the Japanese for believing that
1. Japanese is difficult to learn for foreingers.
2. Japanese is therefore unique.
3. It is very unusual that a foreigner should speak fluent Japanese because it is known that such proficiency is not possible.

Now who gave sufficient cause for the Japanese to think so?
1. The majority of Westerners since the Meiji era to 1910 did NOT learn much Japanese except a select few that Maciamo mentioned. (Of course there should be more. But how many more? Perhaps 1-5% of all foreigners in Japan at that time?)
2. The majority of Westerners during the occupation by US. According to PachiPro, none else than him, (with the exeption of two individuals,) were eager to learn Japanese throughout his military career, and the projected ratio is near 1% of all US personnel in Japan.

The beliefs that you claim that the Japanese are holding tight to are not the result of some supernational linguists propaganda, but the majority of foreigners/Westernes in the late 19th century and the post occupation period who simply thought Japanese was not necessary for survival, and that learning Japanese was not worth the trouble.

I would guess, though, that this way of thinking is probably on the way out with the high numbers of foreigners in Japan who speak Japanese.

No doubt, with many people like you, the old ideas will be replaced. Japanese will eventually be understood as an easy language to learn.

Japanese may be unique in its isolated typology, (with some paleo-Asiatic, or Altaic connection) but not so unique that it defies all efforts to learn it to proficiency. Foreigners of all color, including Westerners/Caucasians, are no more handicapped than the avearge Japanese.

But this is a recent trend. And if anybody is going to see the changes happening first, it sure looks like you will be the first witnesses to this positive change.

[Maciamo]

The beliefs that you claim that the Japanese are holding tight to are not the result of some supernational linguists propaganda, but the majority of foreigners/Westernes in the late 19th century and the post occupation period who simply thought Japanese was not necessary for survival, and that learning Japanese was not worth the trouble.No doubt, with many people like you, the old ideas will be replaced. Japanese will eventually be understood as an easy language to learn.

Thanks for this analysis. I think you have hit right on the target. The problem was that until recently (1980's, 90's ?) most Westerners didn't care about learning Japanese, probably because Japan was still seen as a developing country, and because most Westerners in Japan were military men who had to stay in Japan (well, in their 'enclave'), and not people who came voluntarily because of a genuine interest in the Japanese culture, language or people.

However, when we look at other Westerners living in Japan now, most of them came because they like Japan or Japanese people and want to learn the language to communicate with the people (maybe a girlfriend/wife or boyfriend/husband) or just because they are fascinated by the kanji or the exoticism of the language, or want to understand anime/manga/games/J-pop in Japanese, etc.

This is a completely different kind of people, and most of those people who finally make it to Japan (sometimes after years of planning or waiting) do speak at least some Japanese, and certainly know quite a lot about Japan.

That is why I find it rude and irrespectful of the Japanese to assume that those people who came to Japan because of a real interest or a Japanese lover/partner, cannot possibly speak Japanese (because of its uniqueness and blablabla). In fact, it would be more correct to assume that any foreigner in Japan that did not come for their work (army, embassy, expats) is vert likely to know at least some Japanese. Even the short-time visitors, because tourists who choose to visit Japan rather than another country are usually interested in its culture (traditional or modern) or people, otherwise they'd choose some cheaper, closer or more touristically interesting destination.

The only short-term visitors that may not be very interested in Japan are relatives from people working/living there (eg. when my family come to visit me) and are unlikely to try to start a conversation with the locals in the street anyway.