Gold Warriors : the plunder of Asia

[Maciamo]

However, I do not think that the US Department of State or Defense masturbates to the thought of killing Muslims. Is there oil in the Middle East? Of course. Are so dependent on this oil that if a crisis were to happend the American economy would crumble? Maybe so. But do we go out of our way to kill innocent people? No.

So why did they attack Afghanistan ? There was no oil and really not much to seize. Maybe were they just testing their new weapons before Iraq, but the fact remains that the Taliban regime was a Muslim fanatical one. If you say to catch Bin Laden, well he is from Saudi Arabia, which is also happens to be the richest country for oil.

But the main reason I think the US is ready to fight for its believes as much or even more than for money is its history of fighting communism worldwide since 1948. What did they gain in China/Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, or in spending huge sums of money to keep dictators favourable to US capitalism in South America (Nicaragua, Chile, etc.) ? This was mostly for ideological reasons, and the US probably lost more than it got in return (especially in Vietnam). So what makes you believe they don't want to get rid of Muslim extremist ? Iran and North Korea are both on Bush's blacklist. The former for being too Muslim, the latter for being too communist. Certainly not for resources (North Korea is one of the poorest country on earth). If they wanted oil, they'd attack Saudi Arabia, but they are alreday in good terms and can get what they want. However friends they may be, the US government still warned its Saudi ally over religious freedom today (see BBC article).

[shiningblue]

So why did they attack Afghanistan ? There was no oil and really not much to seize. Maybe were they just testing their new weapons before Iraq, but the fact remains that the Taliban regime was a Muslim fanatical one. If you say to catch Bin Laden, well he is from Saudi Arabia, which is also happens to be the richest country for oil.

If you want to talk about oil and Afghanistan, then...Ever since the breakup of the USSR, the oil (mostly natural gas) reserves have been untapped. The United States, with the help of good ol' Halliburton would like to build a pipeline from the caspian sea to the Persian Gulf in order to build this pipeline. But they would have to cross boundaries of nations. The southeastern most nations to the Caspian Sea are Iran and Turkmenistan, now which one can we get a pipeline through?...ok Turkmenistan. However, before it could get to the Persian Gulf it has to go through two more nations, Afghanistan and Pakistan. Since we are already on good (sort of) terms with Pakistan, all we needed to do was take out Afghanistan to get the resources we needed.

But on the bigger picture. I know Bin Laden is from Saudi Arabia, and we arn't going to attack them due to their power and current relations with them. Osama however had been living in Afghanistan for about two decades (yes i know he was once a CIA agent and we funded the Taliban to beat the USSR). Thus it would not do the US much good to try to bomb the Saudis since he doesn't even live there anymore. And according to your logic, if we wanted to bomb Muslims, we could just go to Indonesia, which is the most populus Islamic nation, or Iran or Iraq immediately, or any other nations which have a larger Muslim population.

But the main reason I think the US is ready to fight for its believes as much or even more than for money is its history of fighting communism worldwide since 1948. What did they gain in China/Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, or in spending huge sums of money to keep dictators favourable to US capitalism in South America (Nicaragua, Chile, etc.) ? This was mostly for ideological reasons, and the US probably lost more than it got in return (especially in Vietnam). So what makes you believe they don't want to get rid of Muslim extremist ? Iran and North Korea are both on Bush's blacklist. The former for being too Muslim, the latter for being too communist. Certainly not for resources (North Korea is one of the poorest country on earth). If they wanted oil, they'd attack Saudi Arabia, but they are alreday in good terms and can get what they want. However friends they may be, the US government still warned its Saudi ally over religious freedom today (see BBC article).

North Korea being on Bush's black list for being too communist?!?!? Maybe six active nuclear weapons in a region in which the US is trying to establish trade ties to Japan, S. Korea, China, Taiwan, etc. is the answer. Having a crazy guy with some of the most powerful weapons known to man isn't sort of the economic catalyist they were hoping for (except if they have a war). Iran is (until recently) been one of the countries in which more terrorists have found shelter than possible the rest of the middle east/central asia combined. Being a fundamental Islamic state certianly doesn't help the matter, but I doubt it is the main reason.

And yes I am aware of the US's actions in South America and SE Asia, nothing we should be too proud of. But look at it this way (if possible) would you rather be living in a greedy, corrupted, capitalist state, or an oppressive, tyrannical, communist state? Both sides of the fight in any regions have nothing to be proud of (Shining Path, anyone???), so don't go blaming the whole thing on the US.

Not only being the most visible, but with the highest pretence: land of the free, guardian of human rights & so on. If the US insists on having the moral high ground, it will be judged accordingly. Noone expects Russia or China (let alone Sudan) to be too considerate regarding human rights or collateral damage. Hence their human rights violations (usually) don't get that much public attention.

Exactly my point (to a point)...

The US most probably had (& has) secret funds for all kinds of purposes. Hence the notion that they used booty gold for these is not too far-fetched. If it was worth $ 500 billion (in modern currency), who knows.
Of course the US has its people (in governments, ministries, secret services) all over the world. If that can be called a global domination scheme, I don't know, but the US surely uses all possible ways to get information & to increase its influence.

I was being sarcastic about the global domination scheme, btw. I didn't say that they don't have secret funds, IT IS THE US GOVERNMENT FOR GOD'S SAKE (no pun intended). We are the birth place of "arms for hostages" and so forth. I am just saying that using some sort of "secret japanese gold booty" to fund the arms race and the cold war, and now the "war on islam" (according to Maciamo) is a little far fetched. We do have little things called itemized budgets that get screened by many many people and if a little fund called "Japan Pirate Gold Inc." came up, I am sure some questions would be raised.

[mad pierrot]

But the main reason I think the US is ready to fight for its believes as much or even more than for money is its history of fighting communism worldwide since 1948. What did they gain in China/Taiwan, Korea, Vietnam, or in spending huge sums of money to keep dictators favourable to US capitalism in South America (Nicaragua, Chile, etc.) ? This was mostly for ideological reasons, and the US probably lost more than it got in return (especially in Vietnam). So what makes you believe they don't want to get rid of Muslim extremist ? Iran and North Korea are both on Bush's blacklist. The former for being too Muslim, the latter for being too communist. Certainly not for resources (North Korea is one of the poorest country on earth).

I have disagree again. You say the US is ready to fight for its believes as much or even more than for money. DO you really believe that? I think the US would LOVE for everyone to believe that. Certainly, that is the image produced by the media. "Remember folks, we're making the world safe for Democracy by fighting Communism." If you were the government, wouldn't you rather your citizens believed they were fighting a moral crusade rather than just to satisfy greed?

Secondly, I highly doubt the U.S. will ever invade North Korea. Just look at the way Powell dismissed the mushroom cloud reported this week. The U.S. has higher priorites than North Korea. *coughs* Iran?

[Maciamo]

And according to your logic, if we wanted to bomb Muslims, we could just go to Indonesia, which is the most populus Islamic nation, or Iran or Iraq immediately, or any other nations which have a larger Muslim population.

I expect that Indonesia is already on a "grey list" (not yet black) of the US, esp. for its terrorist attacks in the nightclub in Bali, the Australian embassy this week, etc. The main difference between Indonesia and Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan is that the Indonesian gov. is not extremist and has to cope with religious diversity (Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Animists...). Then, even most Indonesian Muslims are not very religious (from my experience of travelling there). Terrorists are just a minority group, fought by the government. But still Indonesia and the US are far from being friends (even more developed and pluri-cultural Malaysia is quite anti-American).

North Korea being on Bush's black list for being too communist?!?!? Maybe six active nuclear weapons in a region in which the US is trying to establish trade ties to Japan, S. Korea, China, Taiwan, etc. is the answer.

China has a much bigger nuclear capacity, much bigger army and hardly less crazy government, but the US tries hard to make friends with them, because 1) it would be too dangerous to fight them, and 2) they hope capitalism completely overtake communism soon.

And yes I am aware of the US's actions in South America and SE Asia, nothing we should be too proud of. But look at it this way (if possible) would you rather be living in a greedy, corrupted, capitalist state, or an oppressive, tyrannical, communist state? Both sides of the fight in any regions have nothing to be proud of (Shining Path, anyone???), so don't go blaming the whole thing on the US.

I don't only blame the US. The problem is that the US gov. tries too much to pressure other countries to go their way, and claim to be a reference of democracy and universal moral at the same time. China, Iran or Saudi Arabia don't.

[shiningblue]

I expect that Indonesia is already on a "grey list" (not yet black) of the US, esp. for its terrorist attacks in the nightclub in Bali, the Australian embassy this week, etc. The main difference between Indonesia and Saudi Arabia or Afghanistan is that the Indonesian gov. is not extremist and has to cope with religious diversity (Muslims, Christians, Hindus, Animists...). Then, even most Indonesian Muslims are not very religious (from my experience of travelling there). Terrorists are just a minority group, fought by the government. But still Indonesia and the US are far from being friends (even more developed and pluri-cultural Malaysia is quite anti-American).

According to your logic, using the minority muslim extremist population, all of these countries would be on the US "black list": Iran, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Indonesia, Phillipines, Uzbekistan (most of the ~stan countries for that matter), Egypt, Jordan, Syria, Turkey, and many African naions. Because of this, I don't think that the US could take on all of these countries at once, and the selection out of these countries for "muslim attack" would have to incorporate other factors. So I don't think the attacks on Afghanistan and Iraq were religiously motivated as they were economically and politically (Bush wanting reelection, regime change, etc.)

China has a much bigger nuclear capacity, much bigger army and hardly less crazy government, but the US tries hard to make friends with them, because 1) it would be too dangerous to fight them, and 2) they hope capitalism completely overtake communism soon.

China has a much less crazy government, especially after Deng Xiaopeng came to power. Their economy has turned more and more capitalist giving private ownership to about half of thier industries. As well, local governments in the west have been having democratic elections for their leaders for the last decade. This trend has also been spreading around the different rural cities (need i remind you that about 80% of the population in China is rural) so democracy has been spreading. Save a few instances like Tiennamen Square, the whole Falun Gong thing, Hong Kong and Taiwan, China is on its way to become THE world power, surpassing the US in economic strength. And who wouldn't want to be friends with that? (And yes, it would be too hard to fight them)

I don't only blame the US. The problem is that the US gov. tries too much to pressure other countries to go their way, and claim to be a reference of democracy and universal moral at the same time. China, Iran or Saudi Arabia don't.

terrorism

n : the calculated use of violence (or threat of violence) against civilians in order to attain goals that are political or religious or ideological in nature; this is done through intimindation or coercion or instilling fear

Wouldn't you say that the people that Bush is "supposedly" fighting are the same way. Pressuring other countries to go their way not by aerial campaigns and invations, but by car bombs and hijackings. I don't see the difference between Bush sending 100,000+ troops into a country for political and such reasons, and Bin Ladin ordering 9/11 for political and such reasons. Both sides push, but since the US is so powerful, ours is like a violent shove.

And as for the US trying to be a moral standard for the rest of the world, yes i too think it is a little hypocritical. ie - "Killing for peace is like ***king for virginity" However, my whole point is that while the US might be on their own little carpet bombing zone over here, the rest of the world isn't so innocent in comparison. Many more conflicts with much higher body counts are taking place right now, with much less to no attention because people would rather take on the big target --> the US.

Hopefully, Kerry can get elected in November, then the wars will stop (for the most part) and we could get back to a more multilateral kind of foreign policy. VOTE KERRY ON NOVEMBER SECOND OR PREPARE FOR FOUR MORE YEARS OF GLOBAL HEGEMONY, SMART BOMBS, DICK CHENEY, AND OTHER NASTY ICKY THINGS!!!!!