Should all Japanese directly address foreigners in Japanese ?

[quiet sunshine]

Even in central Tokyo, when going to my local dry cleaner or bento-ya, the women there (over 50) always use sign languages with me, eventough I have been going there regularily for over 3 years. When I come in, they act as if they had never seen me before and look all confused. At the bento-ya I might say with a confident air "honjitsu no makunouchi bento kudasai" (making it longer than what the Japanese usually say on purpose). My pronuciation cannot be bad, as they never ask me to repeat (except if they are visibly too nervous to notice that I'd said something). But when asked to pay, they show either write teh price down on a piece of paper or show it on the cashier's stand - rather than even saying it once before in Japanese. Everytime I say "ahh yon hyaku kyuju en desu ka ? shosho omachi kudasai (check in my wallet), hai, yon hyaku kyuju en desu." to show them that I prefer being told in Japanese. No matter if I go there 4 times in a month, sometimes with my wife with whom I speak Japanese expressedly to show them I am fluent, but these dumb women keep writing the price down on a piece of paper and showing it to me with their finger without a word. This happens even more frequently once we go to the countryside. Now I try to avoid these "blacklisted" shops, even if I have to go more far away to find another where that doesn't happen.

Ha, now I'm curious too! Why they discarded the easiest way--talking with you, since you can speak Japanese fluently? Did you ever ask them directly why they don't want to talk with you in Japanese?

[Maciamo]

Did you ever asked them directly why they don't want to talk with you in Japanese?

No, and it's not an easy thing to ask. I could also just tell them that they should speak Japanese as I understand, but it seems so obvious... I asked my wife, and she doesn't know why this happens. She just says "well you are a foreigner, so they don't expect you to speak Japanese." If even her, who has lived abraod and with whom I usually only speak Japanese, says that, I think it's jut too ingrained in the Japanese mindset to change.

[Lina Inverse]

I think it would be the best if they addressed foreigners normally in Japanese. I wouldn't be the least offended if someone asked if I could speak Japanese.
However, I would be certainly offended if someone addressed me with gestures
Guess the best thing to do in such a situation is to answer "わかりません。　日本語を話すください。" and repeat that until they start speaking Japanese with you

[Duo]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

[lexico]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

Well, you obviously hit it on the nail for the accuser, so to speak. But at the same time it sounds a little unfair for the accused somehow.

What makes me say this is the importance I put on member Hiroyuki Nagashima's vote for the first poll option. From his many posts that I have read with keen interest, I find nothing but respect for any foreigner on this forum; actually even more than that. This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.

Using gestures can be very self-humiliating for the Japanese (is it true? this also needs to be verified) ; but they do it anyway for the benefit of the foreigner who is the guest, who deserves, in the mind of each individual Japanese person, the greatest respect.

How gestures are interpreted in general, and what each gesture means in each particular context can vary widely across different cultures. I don't know the details of it; perhaps someone can fill in, but I feel that this difference should be addressed before making a sweeping judgement from a Eurocentric point of view.

[Elizabeth]

This to me is a cultural characteristic of Japan: to go out of one's way by using jestures for the sole purpose of preventing any embarassment on the foreigner's part.

Using jestures can be very self-humiliating for the Japanese (is it true? this also needs to be verified) ; but they do it anyway for the benefit of the foreigner who is the guest, who deserves, in the minds of each individual Japanese person, the greatest respect.

I had never stopped to think about the implication of gestures like this because I've never had to use them as a substitute for the language. But it is an interesting idea. The second most embarrassing scenario (or offensive/ exasperating, for those Japanese that resent any attempts to learn their language, particuarly when it becomes too good) is for foreigners to struggle with their grammar and vocabulary in front of Japanese speakers more familiar with English (pronunciation is not such an issue if things can be written down or repeated). Which is why you rarely hear it initiated on their side -- most will wait to see how much the other person can understand, if anything, first.

There isn't any controvery about English or other speakers working on a few emergency words and phrases for the sake of modesty and goodwill, but at least in the beginning they will likely be stopped very quickly and asked for the English version. Even those few truly interested in practicing, unfortunately....and even very close Japanese friends can still be embarrassed at having to say 'I don't understand.'

[Maciamo]

Using gestures can be very self-humiliating for the Japanese (is it true? this also needs to be verified) ; but they do it anyway for the benefit of the foreigner who is the guest, who deserves, in the mind of each individual Japanese person, the greatest respect.

I don't buy that. See my reply about the dry cleaning and bento-ya above. Why would they insist on not speaking to me, when they know I can speak and understand Japanese ?

I think the real reason is that the Japanese are uncomfortable with the idea that foreigners can learn their language so quickly, while they were taught (by "the group") that Japanese was so unique, difficult and superior, and that only the superiorly intelligent Japanese race could master such the language of the kami. They might not know it consciously, but deep inside them it is what motivates them to act as described in this whole thread.

The Japanese only realised that their system, culture and language was not superior to others after the burst of the Bubble in 1990. They only slowly start realising that their education system sucks, that they are mostly unique for not being able to learn foreign languages as well as people in Europe, India or (to their utter embarassment) in neighbouring Korea. There is now a new national complex of Japan as a (relative) failure. Politicians are only more corrupted than in Japan in third-world countries, the economy has been going down for 15 years (which developed country can boast half as much ?) and the vast majority of the Japanese are so completely ignorant of the rest of the world that they would still think that Japan is unique for having 4 seasons or sending New Year greeting cards ( ).

[Maciamo]

From what I can make of these threads, I think the question should be changed into should the japanese stop assuming that foreigners are stupid ? ;)

Exactly ! I mean who can't learn some basic greetings and numbers, even as toursits ? When I went to places like Thailand or Indonesia (for about 2 weeks), I learnt what I could because it's not always easy to be understood in English there. In one day I had reached the same level in Thai as most Thai tuck-tuck drivers in English. If I didn't know, I checked in my phrasebook, because I hate using sign language.

I think that most Japanese assume that foreigners cannot learn their language because its "ooh so difficult". In fact it may be one of the easiest language in the world except for the particles (which even the Japanese have problem with) and the kanji (not difficult, just a matter of time and practice). The pronuciation and many aspects of the grammar (no gender, number, declination, conjugation, few tenses...) are easier than in about any European languages. I'd say that the main difficulty of Japanese is that it is too simple and therefore confusing (homonyms, lack of grammatical nuances..).

[sgt. Pepper]

Well, Sweden has a lot of foreigners so i assume that foreign-looking people i see speak Swedish, because most of them do. The same should go for Japan i think...i don't know how many foreigners they've got...but still.

[quiet sunshine]

What's foreigner's proportion in Japan? And what's foreigner's proportion in western countries? Among those foreigners, how much is the proportion of people who can fluently speak the language of the coutry he stays?
May be westerners have the impression that all foreigners can speak their language but Japanese have the impression that most foreigners can't speak Japanese so they usually assume they can't?
You suppose Japanese' psychology in your thinking way through your experience, how do Jananese think about this issue on earth? Hm, there should be some real Japanese to participate into discussion.
Anyway, even if it would be "discriminatory" as you thought, I think it would be "friendly discriminatory".

Have you ever considered that the people who have it happen to them often enough and over a long enough period of time for it to begin to irritate them aren't short-term tourists here?

To those who first know you, they may contact with you according to their general impression about foreigners. You contact many Japanese everyday, but to many Japanese you contacted, although they might contact foreigners before, it's their first time to contact with "you".

[Maciamo]

What's foreigner's proportion in Japan? And what's foreigner's proportion in western countries? Among those foreigners, how much is the proportion of people who can fluently speak the language of the coutry he stays?

There are about 2 million registered foreigners (i.e. residents) in Japan, most of whom are Japan-born Korean and Chinese and speak so well Japanese that the Japanese couldn't tell they are not Japanese (because they don't look foreign). There are only about 120,000 Western residents in Japan (0,1% of the population), but most of them can speak at least some Japanese. Those who can't are mostly tourists, and stay in touristical areas (you know around temples, Tokyo tower, shops in Ginza and Shibuya, etc.).

The Japanese think that Koreans and Chinese living in Japan also can't speak Japanese !

The other day I saw a TV programme about the Korean community in Japan. Those Koreans have lived all or most of their lives in Japan, and speak perfect Japanese. But when the Japanese TV interviewer came with the camera into the Korean shop in Tokyo, the first thing they said upon hearing "konnichiwa" from the Korean shopowner, was "oooh, nihongo jouzu desu ne !" (or you Japanese is so good). Not something one should say to a permanent resident who may have been born and raised in Japan. This certainly proves that the Japanese think that any foreigners (not just Westerners) are unable to learn their "unique and difficult" language. It's very offensive, and that's just daily occurence on Japanese TV.

Westerners coming to Japan usually learn Japanese

Keep in mind that most Westerners living in Japan or just visiting are people interested in Japan (the only exception being the expats sent there by their company, or business people on short visits and usually staying in expensive hotels and having little contact with the locals, or US soldiers, which I didn't count in the 120,000 Western residents). Japan is far from Western countries, it's an expensive place to travel, and the only worthwhile beaches are limited to Okinawa (not really Japan). What's more, most Japanese products can be purchased at similar price in Western countries, so shopping is not even a reason to come to Japan (except for some "otaku" maybe).

So Westerners usually come here for the culture (traditional or modern) or for the people (including boy/girlfriend), which both require them to learn the language. Therefore, no matter whether they are tourists or residents, most Westerners should at least speak some Japanese (depending on how long they have been there and their individual language skills).

[Mike Cash]

And you can see how 5, 10, 20+ years of it can get a little old.

[Hiroyuki Nagashima]

ここの議題について私は、よく理解していなかったよう に思います。
翻訳ソフトを使った結果下記のように翻訳されました。
「どのように、日本語は外国人を扱わなければならない か？ 」
「1.彼らは、彼らには日本語がわかることができなくて 、ジェスチャーを使うことができないと仮定しなければならない。」
「2.彼らは、彼らが日本語（日本語では英語では）を話 すことができるかどうか、最初に彼らに尋ねなければな らない。」
「3.人がわからないならば、彼らは日本語で彼らに講演 しなければならないか、ジェスチャーを使うだけで� るか、よりゆっくり話す。」

選択1について。
私は、英語を正しく話す自信が� りませんので
自分が外国人の立場で考えたとき、英語で話しかけられ たら困ります。
また、日本のジェスチャーと海外のジェスチャーはいくつか違うと聞いています。

例えば、「ごめんなさい」や「� りがとう」を表すジェ スチャーは、両手を� わせて
拝みます。
また、「こっちに来て」は手のひらを下にして手を振り ますが、海外では「� っちに行け」となる
らしい・・です。
人の前を横切るとき、腰を屈めて片手を顔の前にだして 拝む形をとるのは日本独特だとも
聞いています。

選択２について。
「日本語が話せなければ、相手にしない」といっている ようなものなので
相手に対して� まりにも失礼です。

選択３は
翻訳の意味が不明だったので除外しました。

東京で道を聞かれたときは、片言の英語と電子手� の英 語辞書で対応していました。


もし、議題の意味が違っていましたらご指摘ください。
英語に翻訳する自信が無いので、日本語で記載します。

[lexico]

Thank you for posting that, Hiroyuki Nagashima-san.
It helps to understand your vote, and possibly other things.
I don't speak Japanese, but this is what Infoseek gave in machine translation.
Is the translation correct?
The title seems to be quite opposite from what I read.
The translation says not as "How should the Japanese approach foreigners," but "How are the Japanese approaching foreigners."
The original question in English, "How should the Japanese deal with foreigners" seems to have been mistranslated into Japanese.

I did not understand well about the subject for discussion here -- as -- I consider.
As a result of using translation software, it was translated as follows.

"How is Japanese which must treat a foreigner? "

"1. -- them -- them -- Japanese -- it cannot understand -- You have to assume that gesture cannot be used.

(2.) them -- Japanese (Japanese -- English) -- talk it does not ask [ whether すこと is made and or not ] them first -- if ら -- there is nothing "

"3. -- people do not understand -- if it becomes -- them -- Japanese -- them -- lecture It must carry out, gesture is only used, or it talks more slowly. "

About selection 1 Since I did not have the confidence which speaks English correctly, when he thinks in a foreigner's position, I am spoken to in English. たら困ります.

Moreover, it is heard that some overseas gesture differs from gesture of Japan.

For example, "I'm sorry" and JIE showing "thank you" SUCHA unites and worships both hands.

moreover, "-- here -- coming -- " -- a palm -- the bottom -- carrying out -- a hand -- shaking -- seemingly, ます will become "go there" overseas -- it is ..

When crossing a people front, the waist is bent and one hand is taken out before a face.

It is heard that it is peculiar to Japan to take the form to worship.

About selection 2 It has said, "It is not made a partner if Japanese cannot be spoken".

Since like, it is too impolite to a partner.

Since the meaning of translation was unknown, selection 3 was excepted. the time of being asked to a way in Tokyo -- English of babble, and the U.K. of an electronic notebook It corresponded in the word dictionary.

Please point out, if the meaning of a subject for discussion is different.

Since there is no confidence translated into English, it indicates in Japanese.

[Duo]

ここの議題について私は、よく理解していなかったよう に思います。
翻訳ソフトを使った結果下記のように翻訳されました。
「どのように、日本語は外国人を扱わなければならない か？ 」
「1.彼らは、彼らには日本語がわかることができなくて 、ジェスチャーを使うことができないと仮定しなければならない。」
「2.彼らは、彼らが日本語（日本語では英語では）を話 すことができるかどうか、最初に彼らに尋ねなければな らない。」
「3.人がわからないならば、彼らは日本語で彼らに講演 しなければならないか、ジェスチャーを使うだけで� るか、よりゆっくり話す。」

選択1について。
私は、英語を正しく話す自信が� りませんので
自分が外国人の立場で考えたとき、英語で話しかけられ たら困ります。
また、日本のジェスチャーと海外のジェスチャーはいくつか違うと聞いています。

例えば、「ごめんなさい」や「� りがとう」を表すジェ スチャーは、両手を� わせて
拝みます。
また、「こっちに来て」は手のひらを下にして手を振り ますが、海外では「� っちに行け」となる
らしい・・です。
人の前を横切るとき、腰を屈めて片手を顔の前にだして 拝む形をとるのは日本独特だとも
聞いています。

選択２について。
「日本語が話せなければ、相手にしない」といっている ようなものなので
相手に対して� まりにも失礼です。

選択３は
翻訳の意味が不明だったので除外しました。

東京で道を聞かれたときは、片言の英語と電子手� の英 語辞書で対応していました。


もし、議題の意味が違っていましたらご指摘ください。
英語に翻訳する自信が無いので、日本語で記載します。

lexico suggested that i had misunderstood the purpose of this post, i however don't know what to make of it and why it is in japanese and not english, but I guess i'll eat my words and just say sorry if I misunderstood, and thanks to lexico for clearing things up to me, although i'm still confused.

[lexico]

For Duo: From the other posts, Mr. Horoyuki Nagashima is a Japanese software engineer who has been participating on the forum discussions offering help in any Japanese matters with what he knows as a Japanese. But feeling uncomfortable with his English, uses translation software to offer advice and information. You can see for yourself some of his posts here Horoyuki Nagashima.

*a little history: There were several remarks about his vote in this thread which was a little surprising at first. I think he understood that situation and wanted to make sure he did not misunderstand the question. He posted how he perceived the question in Japanese which he believed the foreign speakers of Japanese could verify for him.*

[Glenn]

i however don't know what to make of it and why it is in japanese and not english...

The answer is this:

私は、英語を正しく話す自信が� りませんので...
英語に翻訳する自信が無いので、日本語で記載します。

The first sentence means "since I'm not confindent that I can speak English correctly..." and the second one is "I don't have the confidence to translate this into English, so I wrote in Japanese."

[Glenn]

永島さん、その三つの選択肢を和訳してみます。

選択一：
They should assume that they can't understand Japanese and use gestures
日本人は外国人が日本語が分からないと仮定し、ジェス チャーを使うべきだ。

選択二：
They should first ask them whether they can speak Japanese (either in Japanese or in English)
日本人は最初から外国人に「日本語が分かりますか」（ 英語でも日本語でもいい）と尋ねべきだ。

選択三：
They should address them in Japanese and only use gestures or speak more slowly if the person doesn't understand
日本人は外国人に日本語で話すべきで、その外国人が分 からない場合だけにジェスチャーを使ったりもっとゆっくり話したりすべきだ。

これで分かるといいですね。もし私の和訳は足りなかっ たら、誰かがもっと適当な和訳をしてください。

[Edit] It just hit me that I should explain what just happened here. The above is my attempt at translating the poll options for Hiroyuki Nagashima, because the translation software didn't do such a good job. I didn't mean to leave anyone out; sorry to those who may have felt that way.

[SkippyDaStudent85]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

I know that Americans, in general, tend to have this image of being the ignorant citizens who go around asking non-"American" appearing persons whether or not they can speak English, which can come off easily as an insult. However, (assuming the person is not trying to be a jerk) it is just a matter of clarifying the possible level of communication between the persons involved.

I don't thing that it is a matter of insult, but finding out a vital piece of information for accurate and respectful communication.

[Elizabeth]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

I know that Americans, in general, tend to have this image of being the ignorant citizens who go around asking non-"American" appearing persons whether or not they can speak English, which can come off easily as an insult. However, (assuming the person is not trying to be a jerk) it is just a matter of clarifying the possible level of communication between the persons involved.

I don't thing that it is a matter of insult, but finding out a vital piece of information for accurate and respectful communication.

Because it has all the hallmarks of politeness to most Americans, asking first may seem to be the rational compromise. The practical problem is imagining a real-life situation where it would actually be very useful, unless your Japanese partner thinks they may have just enough English to be of help or they assume the foreigner knows more than they are attempting, out of fear or discomfort....If you are just talking about receiving change or asking for a sack at a convenient store, I don't think most people have a problem with gestures for those sorts of minor transactions.

[Mike Cash]

I guess I am in agreement with the idea of politely asking first if someone can speak Japanese or not. It seems like the most logical thing to do.

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

[lexico]

No, it isn't the most logical thing to do. Think about it a bit.

I've never lived in Japan, but learned how to see this fine point since I got here.

[epigene]

Hello, everyone!

I was thinking of digesting what is being discussed here first before ever posting, but it's hard for me to follow everything (lack of time and my low-vision problem). So, here goes:

I chose #2 immediately, just thinking what I would do meeting a stranger who externally appears to be foreign, in some street in downtown Tokyo.

I have lived most of my life in Japan and in living where I live (western Tokyo) and working at home, I almost never meet Westerners. Only those I meet are people I know through work (an environment where everyone is expected to be able to speak at least Japanese and English--so I speak either language and no one minds) and tourists with their eyes glued to maps, standing in the streets of Shinjuku. (I really wonder where I can meet people like Maciamo-san and Pachipro-san!!)

I grew up seeing Americans (GIs) who never learned anything more than a few phrases in Japanese after several years or even decades of living in Japan and Japanese so hung up on their inferiority of not being able to speak English. When I saw Westerners speaking Japanese on TV (like Jeff Berkland (spelling??) and Thane Camus), I was in awe. I'm really happy to see the growing number of Japanese-speaking foreigners but never had the opportunity to meet them.

Well, I made acquaintance in the past with some married to Japanese, but their Japanese capabilities were limited. So, I ended up speaking English to avoid misunderstandings. I also felt that they would feel their limitations in communicating in Japanese and become embarrassed.

So, my choice is based on my past experiences. (Sorry for the disorganized ramblings.)

[epigene]

This is interesting, so I'll give my own answers, too.

"When the guest/stranger is Japanese."
1. Is using simple, polite gesture, together with polite words, considered acceptable in Japanese culture in general?

Depends on what gestures you're talking about.

"A Japanese person meets a foreigner (US citizen, American, European, African, Asian, Australian) as total stangers on the street or in a shop."
2. What is the standard way for a Japanese person to greet the stranger who looks like a foreigner?
What are the first things to say/do to the foreigner?

I don't know what's standard, but a short greeting in Japanese followed by observation of reaction of the foreign person. Personally, I think reaction on the part of the Japanese depends on how the person feels about his/her English language ability. Most people have no confidence and react strangely, even from my point of view--such as speaking in Japanese only, leaving the location altogether to seek help, etc. I think the people living in the "shitamachi" area are more tolerant and confident of themselves, regardless of English skill level, and will speak to a foreigner in Japanese regardless of whether the person understands them or not.

3. Do many Japanese think that speaking Japanese to a foreigner is impolite?

No. The need to speak English to a foreign-looking person is imprinted in the minds of the Japanese through education, with teachers imparting this belief.

4. Do many Japanese think that asking a foreigner's Japanese ability is rude?

Depends on how you met the person, I guess.

5. Is it emabrassing for a Japanese to say, "I cannot speak English."

Yes, embarrassing, but they do it to escape what they think is humiliation of not being able to speak English.

6. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner will be embarassed to say, "I cannot speak Japanese" ?

No, I think the number of Japanese-speaking foreigners is not large enough for the Japanese in general to think that there are in fact foreigners who speak Japanese well.

7. Do many Japanese wish to practice English with an English speaking person?

Yes, VERY, VERY MUCH!!

8. Do many Japanese think that the Japanese language is unique, and difficult to learn for Japanese themselves? (speech, reading, writing, etc.)

Many say so, but that claim is for self-justification (the other side of not being able to speak English) and theories on linguistic uniqueness propounded in the past.

9. Do many Japanese think that a foreigner (Mongoloid, Negroid, Caucasian,) speaking Japanese is bad, unusual, surprising, suspicious, or intimidating?

Yes, it's still unusual and surprising.

10. Is complementing on someone's skill in anything (including language) considered okay when you it many times?

Once is enough! But, people (especially the elderly) who are really impressed would say it many tiimes.

11. Is complementing someone many times ever considered rude or sarcastic?

Depends on the situation, as mentioned in #10. I think most don't have malicious intentions--only sense of inferiority, backwardness, and lack of awareness that Westerners, especially Europeans, have toward the cultures and languages around the world.

Maybe I'm not typically Japanese, but I think I speak for many Japanese (at least the ones I know).

[jt_]

When I saw Westerners speaking Japanese on TV (like Jeff Berkland (spelling??) and Thane Camus), I was in awe. I'm really happy to see the growing number of Japanese-speaking foreigners but never had the opportunity to meet them.

This may be a bit off-topic, but I just wanted to comment that in Thane Camus's case, he (at least to my knowledge -- I might be wrong about this) spent a significant portion of his childhood in Japan and went to elementary school (and middle school too?) in Japan, so he's basically a native speaker, and thus really shouldn't be lumped in with Westerners who have _learned_ Japanese as a second language.

What surprises me is when some Japanese people, even after hearing this, continue to be impressed at how well he speaks Japanese ("He sounds just like a Japanese person!"). To me, this sheds some light on the attitude that some (not all) Japanese have towards their language. It's as if the fact that he is ethnically Caucasian should somehow preclude him from being able to speak Japanese like a Japanese person, when in actuality, of course, a person of any nationality/ethnic background who grows up speaking a certain language(/languages) from childhood will typically grow up to be a native speaker of that language(/languages).

It's just kind of interesting to note, as nobody (or almost nobody) in the United States (and most other English-speaking countries, no doubt, but I'm only qualified to talk about the US) would be surprised to see, for example an Asian-looking person speaking English like an American. Hell, for all they know, the person might very well be (and most likely probably is) American.

Yet I get this sense that there would be some (again, not all) Japanese who would have a hard time accepting that a Westerner -- even one who was born and raised in Japan -- could be a native speaker of Japanese. I have the feeling this would be somewhat (though perhaps not completely) mitigated if the person in question were half-Japanese.

Of course, I don't believe that this is because the Japanese people who would feel that way are consciously prejudiced or racist -- it's simply that ethnically Western individuals raised in Japan are extremely, extremely rare while there are countless numbers of ethnically Asian individuals raised in English-speaking countries. Still, it's a rather interesting phenomenon.

(Just to clarify: though this post is in response to epigene-san's post, I don't mean to suggest that she holds any of the opinions I make reference to here -- it was just her mention of Thane Camus that got me thinking about this)