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Thread: Discrimination in Japan

  1. #51
    Omnipotence personified Mandylion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dream Time
    no Chinese allowed

    Having trouble making out all the bits, and I am in a bit of a hurry, but the sign also asks that people without their little fingers (ie yakuza) also not come in.
    "It's a d**n poor mind that can only think of one way to spell a word."


    - Andrew Jackson

  2. #52
    Samurai Golgo_13's Avatar
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    Also people with tattoos

  3. #53
    Junior Member MichaelJames's Avatar
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    As a person who loves just about anything japanese, it saddens me to hear that a lot of people there treat other asians(south east asians in particular) badly. I would like to visit Japan someday and make some friends but I'm now thinking twice about it. I hope I am wrong about my impression about Japan and make some japanese friends in the future

  4. #54
    Samurai Golgo_13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Japan is a country where few people believe strongly in religious, political or philosophical ideas. In other words, morals and ideals are not a major concern. . . .
    (emphasis aded)

    I don't see the connection.

    People who are not religious (especially not Christian) can certainly have morals. Otherwise, Japan could never be one of the safest nations on the planet.

    In elementary school in the U.S. I never had classes in Ethics and Morals like I did in Japan ("Doutoku".)

    It is unreasonable or even irrational to expect Japan to have no discrimination when most western countries have the same problem. Since when did the U.S. stop having discrimination based on race, gender, religion, sexual preference, age, weight, attractiveness, income level, etc.

    Since when did Western European nations that have ethnic or racial minorities stop having any problems?

    Or is it a more serious offense if the Japanese do the same thing?

  5. #55
    Omnipotence personified Mandylion's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    Also people with tattoos
    Thats what that is! Ah ha!

  6. #56
    Finally Enlighted One Buddha Smoker's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJames
    As a person who loves just about anything japanese, it saddens me to hear that a lot of people there treat other asians(south east asians in particular) badly. I would like to visit Japan someday and make some friends but I'm now thinking twice about it. I hope I am wrong about my impression about Japan and make some japanese friends in the future
    Don't take any of this to make an impression..form your own opinion. It's nice just to keep your eyes and ears open plus keep an open mind too. Don't worry about too much until you experience this wonderful country because even though you hear all this.....we still live here and there must me a reason for that.

  7. #57
    Samurai Golgo_13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by MichaelJames
    As a person who loves just about anything japanese, it saddens me to hear that a lot of people there treat other asians(south east asians in particular) badly. I would like to visit Japan someday and make some friends but I'm now thinking twice about it. I hope I am wrong about my impression about Japan and make some japanese friends in the future
    Are you the type of person who is saddened by rumors? Most other east-Asian nations have had a bad history with Japan, and people are still prejudiced against the Japanese.

    You've never even been to Japan and you're already pre-judging.

    Ask yourself this question--if the Japanese treat other Asians so poorly, why are there so many of them there? So many continue to go there, legally or illegally?

    If I knew I wasn't going to be welcome somewhere, I sure as hell wouldn't go there.

    One thing no one is willing to mention is the crimes being committed by Chinese and other foreignors in Japan. Are we in serious denial? Some merchants would rather refuse service than to risk and problems.

    It creates a very very poor impression upon the Japanese when foreigners commit crime and makes headline news. Their feeling is, if you are a guest in someone's house, you behave yourself. What if the Japanese went to China and committed crimes? Do you think the Chinese would still treat them well?

  8. #58
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    I don't see the connection.

    People who are not religious (especially not Christian) can certainly have morals. Otherwise, Japan could never be one of the safest nations on the planet.

    In elementary school in the U.S. I never had classes in Ethics and Morals like I did in Japan ("Doutoku".)
    Golgo, maybe you should read the whole sentence before comenting it.. The answer lies just after the comma : "Japan is a country where few people believe strongly in religious, political or philosophical ideas. In other words, morals and ideals are not a major concern, because people rely a lot on common sense and values inculcated by the educational system or the society"

    This was a praise, not a criticism. "Religion and morals" are not sufficient to make a society safe, because most of main religions developped such a long time ago that their values and morals do not fit the present world. Another problem with "morals" is that people usually think it is universal, which is one the worst aberration of the human mind, what creates misunderstandings and wars.

    I believe that moral rules cannot work in any situation, and therefore people should always use their common sense and reason to know what behaviour they should adopt, case by case.

    Japanese rely on common sense, but are unfortunately too influenced by stereotypes and tend to always simplify things. They should be taught analytical criticism, so as to understand more easily what kind of information can be trusted and which is exxagerated or false (eg. when reading newspapers, or hearing some stories about foreign countries). I learnt that at school with emphasis on it in almost every subject (language, history, science...).

    But discussing how should ethics be taught is probaly more suitable to another thread.

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  9. #59
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by orochi
    Racism is definitely a problem in Japan. I don't think it's too much worse than any other country, but it is an issue. The problem that I have is how much effort is taken to "cover it up." Japanese people often say, "Well Japanese people do it this way..." or "Well, we're Japanese..." very innocently, but it is really a veiled form of racism, I think.
    This has been a bit surprising to me as well. But it isn't necessarily always a matter of creating justifications of consciously being shielded from reality. Some friends a while back for instance were planning to invite an African American student into their home on an exchange program and were genuinely horrified when it didn't go over so well with some of their acquaintances, ashamed and shocked not to have realized racism was such a latent problem in Japan.

  10. #60
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    One thing no one is willing to mention is the crimes being committed by Chinese and other foreignors in Japan. Are we in serious denial? Some merchants would rather refuse service than to risk and problems.

    It creates a very very poor impression upon the Japanese when foreigners commit crime and makes headline news. Their feeling is, if you are a guest in someone's house, you behave yourself.
    The problem here is that you use the word "foreigner" putting everybody in the same category. I think that people staying in Japan should be divided, if not by country, by purpose of staying in Japan. Crimes tend to be commited by people who are not trying to adapt to Japanese society, are not in Japan of their own will (or reluctantly, to make money), or are US soldiers stationed there (again, not because they want to adapt or live there, but not really for money either).

    I am pretty sure that if we analyse the status f people committing (serious) crimes, we will find that the vast majority are either illegal or economic immigrants (+ US soldiers). There are probably few people with a working visa (which requires that the sponsoring company pays a salary of at least 250.000yen/month), or with a spouse, investor, diplomatic, religious or permanent visa.

    I would be really interested to know the percentage of crimes committed by visa status as well as by country (so as to see how high is the crime rate of people coming from developping countries compared to others).

    What if the Japanese went to China and committed crimes? Do you think the Chinese would still treat them well?
    Well that already happened, and not just during WWII. Lots of stories of Japanese businessmen "partying" with prostitutes in China.

  11. #61
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    I've always wondered about all these signs etc, like the one above, or often in baths that don't allow yakuza in, I was always under the assumption that yakuza are feared, and they would rough the people up if they did not "respect" them.

    I think I will read a chapter of Musashi and then goto sleep

  12. #62
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    I have no idea where these ideas come from and how they are purpetuated, from many many sources on both sides I imagine.

    My girlfriend is chinese, she and her chinese friends call japanese people "the f**king jap" however we study japanese together all the time and she plans to back to Tokyo with me next year to do modelling. It's all just a joke, not a nice one but meaningless all the same. Some Japanese people are really odd, especially in the UK, where the the oddballs seem to be shipped over by the dozen.

    Japan is what you make of it, MichaelJames please don't be scared off! The fact remains that Japanese have a large amount of energy to promote peace and well being, regardless of past desputes between asia, its something that shouldn't affect our generation! I'm sure there are young racists, everywhere, thanks to thier ignorant pairents and the ignorance of thier of brains.

  13. #63
    Samurai Golgo_13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Well that already happened, and not just during WWII. Lots of stories of Japanese businessmen "partying" with prostitutes in China.
    How about burglaries, robberies, fraud, and murders?




    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    The problem here is that you use the word "foreigner" putting everybody in the same category. . . Crimes tend to be commited by people who are not trying to adapt to Japanese society, are not in Japan of their own will (or reluctantly, to make money) . . . .
    And just how are the average Japanese supposed to distinguish them?

    By the signs they wear?


    As for how the Japanese treat other Asians, also consider how a Chinese would be treated in Indonesia, or how a Korean would be treated in Vietnam, and all kinds of combinations and permutations. I doubt that any one group would be treated like royalty anywhere else. It's just that so much attention is focused on Japan because that's where they all go to.

    Again, why would anyone go there if they knew they were going to be treated so horribly?

  14. #64
    Taicho mdchachi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    One thing no one is willing to mention is the crimes being committed by Chinese and other foreignors in Japan. Are we in serious denial? Some merchants would rather refuse service than to risk and problems.

    It creates a very very poor impression upon the Japanese when foreigners commit crime and makes headline news. Their feeling is, if you are a guest in someone's house, you behave yourself. What if the Japanese went to China and committed crimes? Do you think the Chinese would still treat them well?
    It also makes a poor impression when the media and governmental agencies issue stories about how crimes committed by foreigners are going up. They don't mention facts such as that there are many more foreigners (so of course foreign crime would go up) or that crime by Japanese are going up just as much if not more. It's easier to stoke xenophobic tendencies than to address the real issues (like poor performance of the national police agency).

  15. #65
    I jump to conclusions mad pierrot's Avatar
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    There isn't a nation on this planet that doesn't have a little bit of xenophobia, and Japan is no exception. I'm willing to bet all kinds of different reasons add up to this. I.E. Japan is an island nation, has a long history of isolationist policy, etc.

    Funny thing about the bikes. When I was a college student here, I was stopped a couple of times by cops asking to see my registration. I thought it was strange at the time. Then, just last week I met someone who "borrowed" 5 bikes in one night. He happened to be an English teacher, too....



    Sterotypes like these always have some truth mixed up with exaggeration.


  16. #66
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    And just how are the average Japanese supposed to distinguish them?
    I don't think you can distinguish between them but I think you see the point Maciamo is getting at.

    Also, I know I said it in some post somewhere maybe this one. I checked some stats from the Japanese government and this is what I basically got.

    80% of crime caused in Japan is caused by foreigners not a part of Japan (not permanent residents or the legal ones...you know the foreigners foreigners... ) and 50% of that number (or 40% out of 100%) was by US military people.

  17. #67
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    And just how are the average Japanese supposed to distinguish them?
    As mdchachi very pertinently said, the problem is that the authorities and media are misleading the public in a xenophobic way.

    Quote Originally Posted by mad_pierrot
    There isn't a nation on this planet that doesn't have a little bit of xenophobia
    That is right, but it is the role of the government to educate the people and discourage xenophobia. Japan is one of the few Western countries to encourage it, and that is where the problem lies.

    That is why I would like the media and government to compare stats and tell people exactly the proportion of crimes commited by Japanese, Chinese, Koreans, Indonesians, Brazilians, Americans, etc. They could also mention the crime rate per country (eg. 2% of Americans residing in Japan have committed crimes at one time or another), and see where Japanese stand. I am pretty sure that lots of small European countries have a crime rate close to 0%.

  18. #68
    super famicom dadako's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I am pretty sure that lots of small European countries have a crime rate close to 0%.
    yeh right

    I know you're stats mad Maciamo, however isn't it wiser to make your judgements based on experience not information alone?

    89% of statistics are made up.

  19. #69
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    BuSmo wrote:
    80% of crime caused in Japan is caused by foreigners not a part of Japan (not permanent residents or the legal ones...you know the foreigners foreigners... ) and 50% of that number (or 40% out of 100%) was by US military people.
    Wouldn't that be 80% of reported crime? I'm sure a lot of illegal activity occurs in every country where the rich and powerful can suppress it, or in cases like domestic abuse or acquaintance rape where incidents are never brought to the attention of authorities.

    Since this is about racism in Japan, I won't go into what I've seen/heard/read/experienced in Ireland, but methinks that insular and homogenous cultures with a bent to conform have many traits in common. But then, I recall even in "the most multi-cultural city in the world" - according to the UN, that is - my parents and I had encountered some explicit discrimination and bigotry.

    Maciamo wrote:
    I am pretty sure that lots of small European countries have a crime rate close to 0%.
    Let me assure you that Ireland, a population of less than 4 million people, has an extremely high crime rate per capita across all categories. I'll research figures if people ask for stats, although the Irish media aren't archived very extensively online (all the negative news seems confined to radio and TV).

  20. #70
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekosasori
    BuSmo wrote:

    Wouldn't that be 80% of reported crime? I'm sure a lot of illegal activity occurs in every country where the rich and powerful can suppress it, or in cases like domestic abuse or acquaintance rape where incidents are never brought to the attention of authorities..
    Yes, unreported crime doesn't count

  21. #71
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nekosasori
    Let me assure you that Ireland, a population of less than 4 million people, has an extremely high crime rate per capita across all categories. I'll research figures if people ask for stats, although the Irish media aren't archived very extensively online (all the negative news seems confined to radio and TV).
    I hope that you and Dadako didn't misunderstand me. I meant the the crime rate of people coming from small European countries (Benelux, Scandinavia...) living in Japan is close to 0%. That seems obvious as I have never heard of any crime committed by any of them and there are usually less than 1000 people of each of those countries living in Japan.

  22. #72
    Occasional visitor nekosasori's Avatar
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    @ Maciamo - ahh, I apologize - that was not apparent to me. I'm not sure what a realistic count would be of Irish nationals living in Japan (long-term, over a year?) - although I believe you. As an aside, I imagine a lot of Australians in Japan would have Irish ties.

    Actually, I did do some research about Irish crime rates (within Ireland, that is) and they claim that compared to Denmark or New Zealand that Eire has a lower crime rate. I don't believe this, however.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by mdchachi
    It's easier to stoke xenophobic tendencies than to address the real issues (like poor performance of the national police agency).
    You think the FBI or the Scotland Yard has a higher clearance rate than the Japanese police?

    But it's an unfair comparison since the crime rates are much higher in the U.S. and the UK.

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    And just how are the average Japanese supposed to distinguish them?

    By the signs they wear?
    People tend to judge others by the impression they get. Just like in any other country. If you wear a suit, carry a brief case and have a neat appearance, you WILL be treated a little better than someone with long hair wearing old jeans and a torn T-shirt, regardless of race.

    I don't even understand why discrimination in Japan has to be such a major issue here anyway.

    Has anyone seen the posts about how Frank White and I have been treated in the U.S. in the "white-Japanese relationships" thread?

    Are there any chapters of the Ku Klux Klan in Japan? In case nobody knew, there are in the U.S.

    If a lot of foreigners ended up somehow in Uzbekistan, chances are most of them will be discriminated against.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    I don't even understand why discrimination in Japan has to be such a major issue here anyway.
    Do you mean on this board or in real life?

    Quote Originally Posted by Golgo_13
    Has anyone seen the posts about how Frank White and I have been treated in the U.S. in the "white-Japanese relationships" thread?
    Give me a link, please? If not, then I'll look forward it later.

  25. #75
    Samurai Golgo_13's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Buddha Smoker
    Do you mean on this board or in real life?
    Give me a link, please? If not, then I'll look forward it later.
    It says "here."

    http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=5384

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