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Thread: What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

  1. #151
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    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post


    "The Koreans originated from China & Mongolia "---Uh proof? You've linked to a book but there is no mention in the link of your assertion that "Koreans originated from China & Mongolia."
    http://www.hanbooks.com/hanofkor.html

    This book is an official publication,a page map with 3 ancient migration arrows from China's Shandong Peninsula,Mongolia & China's NE region.

    by Korean Overseas Culture and Information Service

    size: 24.5x17cm 652pages

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    ^^^^ Uh where? I've never heard of this study or theory. If you actually click on the link there is no mention whatsoever any kind of migration flow. Also, the Korean Overseas Culture and Information Service as genetic institute? It sounds more like an institute promoting tourism.

    As to Chinese origins, I paste below a summary of a recent study by reknowned Chinese genetic Li Jin, who is a very famous genetist who studied the whole Chinese population. This is the prevalent view as to Chinese DNA and origins. Obviously Chinese and SE asians are closely related:

    Saturday, July 15, 2000


    Modern humans, or Homo sapiens, might migrate from Africa into China by way of Southeast Asia between 18,000 years and 60,000 years ago, researchers say.

    This latest research finding by Chinese scientists and their international colleagues concluded that modern humans might have moved from Africa to China replacing Mono erectus (archaic upright- walking human beings) there to become the ancestors of the country 's modern humans.

    The conclusion is based on the comparison and analysis of Y- chromosome DNA using samples of the extant 88 populations living in East Asia, Southeast Asia and the Oceania, says Li Jin, one of the Chinese researchers of the study "Chinese Human Genome Diversity Project."

    Li Jin is a professor of both the National Human Genome Center in Shanghai and the Institute of Genetics of Fudan University.

    Scientists found that the variations of Y-chromosome in north China are derived from those in south China, a result proved as that a small number of settlers of African origin moved to northern China due to the hurdle of the mighty Yangtze River. And Polynesians, who live in the islands in the Pacific Ocean, are found to have different Y-chromosome to Taiwanese, forcing scientists to reconsider the hypothsis that Polynesians were descendants of ancestral Taiwanese aborigines.

    As a whole, nearly all Y-chromosome variations in East Asia and the Oceania could be found among those in Southeast Asia, adds Li Jin.

    So, the findings also indicate that modern humans migrated from Africa to Southeast Asia nearly 60,000 years ago.

    Subsequently, the migrants were believed to have headed for two directions: one moved northwards to south China and then spread to the country's northern areas by crossing the Yangtze River, and the other went to Indonesia and ultimately reached the Oceania.

    The Y-chromosome research is an important method for tracing the human migration patterns and the findings make clear the relationships between people groups in Southeast Asia, and East Asia and the Oceania, says another major Chinese researcher Jiayou Chu, who is a professor of the Chinese Academy of Medical Sciences.

    This latest research result was published in today's issue of the Proceeding of National Academy of Sciences, a U.S. journal.

    The finding means that scientists have made headway in the pursuit of human origin, though the conclusion that modern Chinese human beings migrated from Africa still remains controversial, says academician of the Chinese Academy of Sciences Zhu Chen, who is also the director of Shanghai's National Human Genome Center.

    In 1987, the U.S.'s scientists brought forward a theory based on mitochondrial DNA evidence that all human beings originated in Africa and later migrated to other corners of the globe. In the intentional academic circles, few arguments were raised about the theory that all palaeoanthropic mankind originated in Africa. Meanwhile, the scientists note that fossils of Peking Man who lived 500,000 years ago and Yuanmao Man over 1.7 million years ago were found in China, but both lack any direct hereditary connection with modern Chinese man.

    There is a disconnection or "faultage" in fossils of palaeoanthropic Chinese who lived some 60,000 to 100,000 years ago, researchers say.

    Coinciding with the fossil record, Chinese scientists discovered last year that primitive elements of DNA found in modern Chinese are identical with those found in Africans.

    The discovery has provided weighty evidence on the genetic basis for the theory that modern Chinese were not evolved from the archaic upright-walking human beings in China but originated in Africa.

  3. #153
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  4. #154
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    More colorful flavors to Japanese origin

    I think a good percentage of modern day Japanese have European & Middle Eastern MALE ANCESTORS,they replaced the ones from ancient times

    These Japanese's forebears NOT originated from Korea or China

  5. #155
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    You actually have ZERO knowledge of genetics as proven by your posts. Are you like 14? Japanese most certainly do not have European or Middle Eastern roots. Maybe they WISH to have those roots--but all you have to walk around the streets of Tokyo to notice that Japanese look and are 100% asian.

    As to Japanese having Ainu roots, maybe like 5%; they certainly do not comprise a significant portion of the population and their contribution to the Japanese gene pool is certainly overplayed by the Japanese to obscure the "asianess" of their background to tie them in somehow with European. Their contribution to the culture and genepool of Japan is minimal at best. And even any caucasian would laugh at the notion that Japanese are somehow a hebrew tribe like the 12 tribes of Israel or some such nonsense.

    Japanese are genetically a mix of Korean, Malay/Polynesian and Ainu.

    Many Japanese however like to obscure their background by coming up with ridiculous unsupportable theory such as they have austronesian roots or their ancestors are from South America or some such nonsense, anything but to admit the most plainly obvious.

  6. #156
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    now look who is speaking out of ignorance
    Lechaim Gambatte! Be'hatzlacha, Be'koach, Be'shalom
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    Uh I think you are very ignorant.
    Are you contending that the Japanese is related to Hebrew or some such nonsensical claim?
    If so, do you know of linguistic, archeolgocal, genetic study which proves that Japanese are indeed a lost semitic tribe. I thought not.
    I am merely repeating what I read on linguistic study forum in which a Japanese made the comment that they are one of the lost tribes of Israel and a bunch of linguists (whom I assume were caucasian) attacked him/her because the theory as unscientific and the person making it to be "immature" among other nasty comments. I think linguists take their field quite seriously to consider their field a science and do suffer flakey comments like that very easily. Some Japanese seem to take the theory quite seriously though. Below is the link. The discussion was very interesting.

    forum.wordreference.com/archive/index.php/t-2562520253c/t-195192.html

  8. #158
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    according to some scholars there are links apparently. just because i dont sit around the whole day and read linguistic abstracts and post them doesn't mean they cant exist. many connections between the far east and the middle east have been found. and im not saying that japanese are all descendants of jews. they are in fact closely related to koreans but that a lost tribe did at one time come to japan i think it is highly likely. and by the way i dont see you putting any evidence of your theories either.

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    I don't sit around all day "reading abstracts" and post them. I am new here. I hardly post in this forum. There are dozens of SOUND and REPUTABLE scientific articles on the theories I proposed. You need only have to do simple search on the internet as I've mentioned in my previous post.

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    Thumbs down

    Eh ...

    Some S Koreans have excessive thirst for Japanese affinity

  11. #161
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    although i would like a lot more research done on the subject(maybe genetic) go search online and you will also find research that says that some of the lost tribes came to japan. though mainly anthropological in nature. And its good to have an open mind in any case.
    that japanese have epicanthic folds no one is questioning. and i dont think any of us really care except in an abstract curious way who came to japan in ancient times. its just a passing curiosity. we all have the same roots if you go back far enough. though why you are so vehement about a subject like this i cant really tell. its not like we are slandering your family tree.

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    Eh...or shall we say...some Chinese have an excessive thirst for Korean affinity......as well as Japanese. Or some people who need to chime in "Chinese" every 5 seconds to unrelated topics and without scientific proof. You're posts are kinda pathetic.

    I don't think a mere 6 posts on a Japanese forum counts as sufficient for someone who has an Japanese obsession.... Genetics/Linguistics/ is my interest. I don't need to apologize for it.

  13. #163
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    Red face

    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post

    someone who has an Japanese obsession....
    ALL your posts here speak on your behalf

  14. #164
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    How about......

    listing some textbooks or links to back up the posts. Might be nice to know if the info comes from watching a Japanese anime show, or talking to the sushi chef at your local deli.

    Uncle Frank

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    lol, at first I found myself more agreeing with allq, now I find myself more agreeing with tokapi.

    Whether the Y DNA found in Ainu is particularly European or not, they were still Caucasoid. Race, apart from genetics is just appearance, like skin color and facial features. There's no denying the fact Ainu were quite Caucasian looking. This Ainu may be a small part of Japanese population but it's certain had the chance to mix in with the rest. Just look at Ken Hirai. 5% is certainly not a nothing.

    Also, Northern Europeans, especially the Finnish are quite mongoloid. Though they're more Haplogroup N than Haplogroup O. Saying "%100 Asian" is a confusing thing considering Southern Europeans are more Caucasoid than Northern ones.

    Japanese get their "Asian genes" from the Norther Asians. There's some Chinese in there, but it's mostly north of Huang He. That which is not that Ainu Caucasoid comes from mostly Altaic North Asians like Siberians and Monlgolians. The Koreans happen to be North Asian Altaic people as well.

    Asians and Europeans are just a bunch of Central Asians anyway of course we're going to have similarities. People have been interacting and mixing and stuff before we had concepts like "Europeans" and "Asians".

    I apologize UncleFrank, for I do not have any links to add to the conversation at the moment. But I will do my best to find some upon my next posting at this thread.

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    If there is anyone who is caucasian-like in appearance, it's probably Koreans bcause of all the asian ethnicities they probably the ones who can compete with caucasians in terms of height and build and not look misplaced. This is probably one of the reasons everyone is so fascinated with Korean dramas accross asia. People are probably not used to that kind of appearance. Moreover, many Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian because they believe that they look similar--and I find some of my Mongolian friends don't dispute this fact. Yet, I doubt any Korean would seriously suggest that they are part-caucasian or the like.

    Keirkoori, you're quoting a mismash of theories that seem to appease what you "want" Japanese to be rather than what actually are. And sorry to burst your bubble, Japanese certainly do not look caucasian or central asian. First of all they lack the powerful build and body type. Also, I have noticed that Japanese faces are rather small and petite, whereas central asians have long and wide faces. I think it best to stick to scientific sources rather than emotional arguments like this.

    For those asking for sources on my theories, everyone knows the jared diamond article on Japanese roots from Discover magazine. A link can be found here:

    discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455/

    Jared Diamond is the pulitizer winning author of the books guns, steel germs. He is very well known scholar in the States.

    Also, with regard to actual similarites of early Korean and Japanese art, please refer to the following photos of 4-6 Century artifacts:

    Gaya Helmet: Korea

    flickr.com/photos/pressapochista/216583254/

    Kofun Helmet: Japan

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KofunHelmet.jpg

    Silla Sword: Korea

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SillaSwordHilt.jpg

    Kofum Sword: Japan

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:KofunSwordHilts.jpg

    Silla Crown: Korea

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:SillaCrownGuimet.jpg

    Kofun Crown: Japan

    upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/f/fe/KofunCrown.jpg

    Budha Statue: Korea

    flickr.com/photos/pravin8/35484439/

    Budhs Statue: Japan

    en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:AsukaBodhisattva.JPG

    More examples can be found in the book by Jon Covell and Alan Covell which I've already mentioned in a previous link.


    With regard to language similarities, I think you need an expert knowledge of both Korean and Japanese to have an opinion of this. Anyway here's a post from a turkish guy who compared grammatical features of both languages:

    I was exposed a little to Korean and I was amazed by grammatical similarities between Japanese and Korean - particles, word order, endings, politeness levels, etc. The endings and particles are not the same but the pattern is similar and you can map them.

    "I go to school":

    Japanese (私は) 学校へ 行きます。 ((watashi-wa) gakkō-e ikimas)
    Korean: (저는) 學校 (학교) 에 가요. ((jeo-neun) haggyo-e gayo.)

    (The grammatical pattern is identical for Korean and Japanese:
    (optional: I-topic marker) school - direction marker go - polite ending.

    The same phrase in Chinese Mandarin will be quite differently structured:
    我去学校。 or 我到学校去。
    Wǒ qù xuéxiào. or Wǒ dào xuéxiào qù.





    Sorry about the posting the addresses. I don't have enough posts to my name to actually link the pages.



    You will also notice that all of my sources tend to western as I find asian studies to be biased to further their own political agenda. Check out this article on the BBC:

    news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1008051.stm
    Last edited by allq; Oct 14, 2007 at 03:22.

  17. #167
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    It is just a diet difference.
    People in the DPRK and South Korea may be in the same ethnic group, but if you would be much shorter and had poorer body if you were raised in the North.
    Or it is the definition of beauty that differs over time.
    Miss Nippon in the last 50 years is the good example.

    allq, where did you take your history education, in the state or South Korea?
    Many Korean patriots like you criticise the Japanese textbook, but do you have anyone saying no against the ultra-nationalistic mixture of history and mythology in your country?
    I was a bit surprised to read the history textbook telling your great Dangun is a historical fact. It is true to say that the book was written in the 13th century and described the Korean mythology, but...

    You will also notice that all of my sources tend to western as I find asian studies to be biased to further their own political agenda. Check out this article on the BBC:
    http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/asia-pacific/1008051.stm
    Archaeologist exposed as fraud
    Political agenda? Just a fraud.

  18. #168
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    allq:

    at that time , half of korean peninsula was ruled by "WA"

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    Everytime I read "What's the origin of the Japanese people?", I always want to reply.....Japanese mothers!
    I hope life isn't a big joke, because I don't get it. ~Jack Handey

  20. #170
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    Effects of famine: Short stature evident in North Korean generation

    YANJI, China — At 16, Myung Bok is old enough to join the North Korean army. But you wouldn't believe it from his appearance. The teenager stands 4-feet-7, the height of an American fifth- or sixth-grader.

    Myung Bok escaped the communist North last summer to join his mother and younger sisters, who had fled to China earlier. When he arrived, 14-year-old sister Eun Hang did not recognize the scrawny little kid walking up the dirt path to their cottage in a village near the North Korean border, whom she hadn't seen for four years.

    http://archives.seattletimes.nwsourc...&date=20040214

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    Thumbs up

    Quote Originally Posted by Goldiegirl View Post

    Everytime I read "What's the origin of the Japanese people?", I always want to reply.....Japanese mothers!
    More factual than hearsays

  22. #172
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    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    If there is anyone who is caucasian-like in appearance, it's probably Koreans bcause of all the asian ethnicities they probably the ones who can compete with caucasians in terms of height and build and not look misplaced. This is probably one of the reasons everyone is so fascinated with Korean dramas accross asia. People are probably not used to that kind of appearance. Moreover, many Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian because they believe that they look similar--and I find some of my Mongolian friends don't dispute this fact. Yet, I doubt any Korean would seriously suggest that they are part-caucasian or the like.
    Both Koreans and Japanese are capable of being Caucasian looking. But I find it seems to happen more often in Japanese.
    Japan does have an Ainu population, Korea has none at all. Caucasian is a facial thing, not a height thing.

    If Koreans confuse themselves to be Mongolian it's because Koreans are most likely Atlaic people. So that would make sense to me. Japanese are also Altaic people.

    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    Japanese certainly do not look caucasian or central asian.
    Some most certainly do. That 5% has an influence. You're saying "Japanese certainly do not look caucasian.." that includes 128 million.
    I didn't not say Japanese people are Caucasian. I said there was a Caucasian influence.
    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    First of all they lack the powerful build and body type.
    Plenty of Caucasians are short. I'm only 5"7' myself. When I was in Japan plenty of guys were taller than me.

    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    Central Asians
    Where are you getting this Central Asians from?
    The only time I mentioned Central Asians was when I said ALL Asians and Europeans come from Central Asia. Before then we all were black people.

    Other than that I was merely stating that Japanese people, Korean people, Mongolian people and Siberian people are all Altaic. And all have more in common with each other than any do with Chinese. The ONLY Chinese Japanese have in them is slight amounts of North Chinese. Other than that they are Korean, Mongolian and Siberian in origin. That and a tribe of Caucasians called "Ainu" that outside of Japan only exist in Russia.

    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    For those asking for sources on my theories, everyone knows the jared diamond article on Japanese roots from Discover magazine. A link can be found here:
    http://discovermagazine.com/1998/jun/japaneseroots1455
    Jared Diamond is the pulitizer winning author of the books guns, steel germs. He is very well known scholar in the States.
    Some quotes from your site.
    being very similar in appearance and genes to other East Asians, especially to Koreans
    Indeed. Because Koreans and Japanese are both Altaic people.

    hey are often classified as Caucasoids (so-called white people) who somehow migrated east through Eurasia to Japan. In their overall genetic makeup, though, the Ainu are related to other East Asians, including the Japanese and Koreans.
    Their genetics is irrelevant, they are still Caucasian in appearance and so still Caucasian.

    The Article says the non-Ainu who inhabited Japan were Northern invaders. However the Northern invaders inevitably, while often suppressing the Ainu, mixed with the Ainu.

    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    But this view is difficult to reconcile with the distinctiveness of the Japanese language. Everyone agrees that Japanese does not bear a close relation to any other language in the world. Most scholars consider it to be an isolated member of Asiafs Altaic language family, which consists of Turkic, Mongolian, and Tungusic languages.
    Again, something I have said. Japanese and Koreans are Altaic people. As can be seen from their language.

    Quote Originally Posted by allq View Post
    Anyway here's a post from a turkish guy who compared grammatical features of both languages:
    I was exposed a little to Korean and I was amazed by grammatical similarities between Japanese and Korean - particles, word order, endings, politeness levels, etc. The endings and particles are not the same but the pattern is similar and you can map them.
    "I go to school":
    Japanese (Ž„‚Ν) ŠwZ‚Φ s‚«‚ά‚·B ((watashi-wa) gakkō-e ikimas)
    Korean: (저는) ›{Z (학교) 에 가요. ((jeo-neun) haggyo-e gayo.)
    (The grammatical pattern is identical for Korean and Japanese:
    (optional: I-topic marker) school - direction marker go - polite ending.
    The same phrase in Chinese Mandarin will be quite differently structured:
    ‰δ‹ŽŠwZB or ‰δ“žŠwZ‹ŽB
    Wǒ qù xuéxiào. or Wǒ dào xuéxiào qù.
    Sorry about the posting the addresses. I don't have enough posts to my name to actually link the pages.
    Of course Japanese and Korean have lots of similarities, they are both Altaic languages not Sino-Tibetan.

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    Interesting, I am getting such an emotional reaction to my posts. I'm not a nationalist, and I have no opinion on the textbook issues regarding Japanese distortions. I'm not educated on such issues and I couldn't care less as to how Japanese conducts its affairs. As I've stated my interests lie mainly questions concerning genetics, linguistics, archealogy etc.

    I would recommend the book Korea's Impact on Japanese History: Japan's Hidden History by Jon Covell and Alan Covell. I've given only a few examples of artifacts replicated by the Japanese. Also, as to the nationalist Caster's post, these artifacts have been dated and generally the Japanese replicas date about 100-200 years later than the comparative Korean artifacts which date much earlier. I would recommend this book for more such examples.

    Also, as to Caster's ridiculous post, regarding Wa's supposed control of the Korean peninsula---I refer you to the above book which suggests otherwise--also, logistically have does a country with primitive technolgocial capibility conquer a country...not to mention there no archeological or historical evidence whatsoever of this every happening. Also if you really want to pursue this, the seven branch sword supposedly given by the Peakhe king to the kingdom of Wa, clearly stating the Wa was a servant state of Paekche does imply the exact opposite--that Paekche conquered Wa and the plethora of Paekche artifacts in Japan gives much credence to this idea. Please educate yourself. You can find more information on the seven-branched sword on wiki or I can provide a link.


    True South Korean experience height explosian after better nutrition beginning after the Korean war. I have read that the average height of Koreans are very similar to Southern Europeans now---and each generation gets taller and taller. It's pretty interesting reading the reactions of non-Koreans w/ regard to their opinion of Korean actors commenting on their height. I can deduce by the fact that it is even commented on that it's probably a rarity in their own population.


    North Korean are malnutritioned and it's a sad thing and a low blow to see trolls on the board taking advantage of this. Still, the North Koreans do have the same body structure as that I recognize among South Koreans such as stocky, broad shoulder, relatively large boned horizontally build etc, that if given the proper nutrition they would reach South Korean height. But it is still a fact that (South) Koreans ARE tallest among the asian groups borne out by scientific study after study. I can provide examples of these population height studies upon request.

    Keikoori, I'm not going into a ridiculous argument of which population is more caucasian looking. Also, Ainus did live in the Korean peninsula--and some Koreans still have small traces of Ainu DNA. However, Ainus are now extinct on the peninsula. Due to this similarity of paleo-siberic evidence scholars have suggested that at one time Korea and Japanese islands were once connected before the glacier melting and the rise of sea levels.


    And pipkun, my sources are WESTERN not Korean or asian for that matter, thus how could the content of my posts be a mix of history and myth? Neither Jared Diamond or the Covells, who are American and I doubt are hardly are trying further some kind of Korean agenda. Ridiculous. Not to mention that Jared Diamond is extremely well known pultizer prize winning author whom I doubt would be pursuaded by any side.

    Keirkoori if you actually read that post carefully you will realize that the similarites are not really owed to the fact that they are thought of as altaic languages. The guy's point is that grammars of both language is startlingly identical to every detail as the placement of particles. I think you will have a better appreciation of this if you actually have knowledge of both languages.
    Last edited by allq; Oct 16, 2007 at 00:11.

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    Also, as to Caster's ridiculous post, regarding Wa's supposed control of the Korean peninsula---I refer you to the above book which suggests otherwise--also, logistically have does a country with primitive technolgocial capibility conquer a country...not to mention there no archeological or historical evidence whatsoever of this every happening. Also if you really want to pursue this, the seven branch sword supposedly given by the Peakhe king to the kingdom of Wa, clearly stating the Wa was a servant state of Paekche does imply the exact opposite--that Paekche conquered Wa and the plethora of Paekche artifacts in Japan gives much credence to this idea. Please educate yourself. You can find more information on the seven-branched sword on wiki or I can provide a link.
    http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=26762
    I will keep this topic because I have not finished..

    why did Yamato help the Baekje
    because there were so many wajin(japanese) at that time.
    I think there were still same ppl that were stayed in korea from somewhere in china to japan.
    and, most refugees from korea was as same as the Japanese who were living in korea or manchuko for immigration or occupation.

    for example there are many Japanese castles in Korea
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waeseong
    it can not say "Japanese castle's origin was from Korea and
    japanese were from korea"

    magatama
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Magatama
    Korea was not a place of origin of jade.
    Last edited by caster51; Oct 15, 2007 at 11:04.

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    Checked out Professor William Wayne Farris' "Sacred Texts and Buried Treasure". He has a very detailed, balanced, and respectable analysis of Korean-Japanese relations. I whole-heartedly recommend it.


    Regarding similarities of Korean and Japanese art and architecture, many are made by immigrant Korean craftsmen !


    Professor Walter Edwards (of Tenri University) is one of the top Western scholars on the evolution of the kofun. He also wrote a rebuttal to Gari Ledyard's article. "Galloping along with the Horseriders".He says that kofun found in South Korea resemble 5th century keyhole-shaped kofun. However, even in the Yayoi period, round burial mounds had annexed rectangular portions that are believed to have once held ceremonies for the dead. These evolved into the keyhole-shaped kofun that are so well known today in the late 3rd/early 4th century. Therefore, by the time of any supposed Horserider invasion, keyhole shaped kofun were already on their way in development. Edwards is no die-hard Japanese nationalist who posits a Japanese invasion of Korea (keep in mind he's an archaeologist--that's his evidence), but he believes that keyhole-shaped kofun were one example of a cultural aspect that moved from Japan to the peninsula. He makes no claim of a political rulership over Korea, but gives evidence of bilateral relations between Paekche and Japan (an anachronistic term, really) as making this claim possible.


    Therefore, the more I read, the more I can't see kofun shape as supporting the Horserider Theory.

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