What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

[bossel]

By proto-caucasoid, there has to be one of the three conditions satisfied:
1) Ancestral to the modern caucasoid and mongoloid in central asia

Proto-caucasoid as I understand it would mean the population from which the caucasoids evolved. Any evidence that the Ainu actually are direct descendents of that population?

2) Split from both population 30-50k years ago

Do you mean that Ainu were actually predecessors of both caucasoid & mongoloid races? That would mean that they were proto-caucasoid/mongoloid.

3) Facial features common to other known proto-caucasoids (either north american or Australian Aborigine)

Aborigenes are proto-caucasoid, too? Amerindians, as well? Caucasoid ancestry must be very heterogenous, then.

2) This is rather lengthy to show, and still disputed widely. Possibly, another one whole page of this thread. Should I do it? Bossel?

If you think that anyone would read it. I suppose, a link to some peer-reviewed articles would suffice.

Jomon's morphology is the closest to Australian Aborigine. Ainu and Eskimo forms another cluster in comparison with other population,

Morphology, hmm? Not very convincing, esp. since Ainu are said to be derived from Jomon. Skulls give hints, but not more, IMO.

[Grimmo]

Proto-caucasoid as I understand it would mean the population from which the caucasoids evolved. Any evidence that the Ainu actually are direct descendents of that population?

Genetically, the idea of proto-caucasoids are obscure, because the phylogeny of proto-caucasoids would not choose them to be common ancestor of Caucasoids. When I said this term, I confess I don't have much idea except certain skull feature.

I have no proof, either. The idea of grouping ainu/jomon into mongoloid or caucasoid, is rejected many times. I presume that people just made up and use the proto-caucasoid which does not fit in the description of more generic mongoloid, caucasoid, and negroid. Ainu/Jomon is unique and does not need to be classed, but because scientist likes to group them up, they invented a few obscure terms. Still, proto-caucasoids are not the best term for any of modern races, because of admixtures, and environmental variation in the population.

Aborigenes are proto-caucasoid, too? Amerindians, as well? Caucasoid ancestry must be very heterogenous, then.

I need to warn you that I assumed too much regarding Australian Aborigines (they also have racial mixtures within). There is a study of comparing the skulls of Kennewick man, and some residents in Oseania (or Australia) showing some proximity. I said I used this result, but as minty pointed out, this is the weakest assumption. I don't have any support evidence backing my assumption that these two share the closer common ancestor either, I mean genetically. So this idea can be rubbish, but more or less an idea I advocate,

Morphology, hmm? Not very convincing, esp. since Ainu are said to be derived from Jomon. Skulls give hints, but not more, IMO.

The field of linking up genotypes with phenotypes in evolutionary setting is new, and there are no serious studies published yet, accoding to the professor I talked to. Morphological results will be useful as there will be findings on the genotyped markers of these facial features, some day. For a moment, it will be a speculation, and stays in the level of social or anthoropological science.

[Minty]

Let me first comment on the pic. I agree that his look can be southern han. But I can say his nose structure is closer to northern han. On the whole, face is han. Jaws are not as round or squared as northern asian. But it looks to me that his face, eyes placed flat to the surface, and his short -ended nosebridge, does not seem contradictory to my generalization.

It is very difficult to determine southern and northern Chinese even the two are genetically quite different. I pick him because I have seen thousands of Chinese who look roughly like that. In the case of Chinese, it is not accomplishable to search for an individual model or an original as symbolic of her community, exclusively for potentially definite cultural factors.

What I don't agree on your arguments are the bits where you discussed about the double eye lids of East Asians. Are you certain when Japanese have double eye lids they are mostly of what your pictures suggested? It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.

If that is really the case why they couldn’t tell I am not Japanese by just looking at me, I am sure other Chinese or Koreans, possibly even Vietnamese probably have experienced similar things.



I found a Chinese girl which has a rather typical Chinese face.



This is a Taiwanese singer, his face is quite typical of Han, Chinese.





This is Ren Xian Qi, a Taiwanese singer.

I choose these two celebrities because they are not pretty boys, but rather average Chinese looking, they are famous for their talents not for their looks unlike some others.


Another Chinese person with a common chinese face.



Out of these three pictures which one do you think is Japanese, Chinese and Korean?

Why don't you take a quiz to see whether you can determine who is who?

Below is the link to the quiz:
http://www.alllooksame.com/

[Grimmo]

It is very difficult to determine southern and northern Chinese even the two are genetically quite different. I pick him because I have seen thousands of Chinese who look roughly like that. In the case of Chinese, it is not accomplishable to search for an individual model or an original as symbolic of her community, exclusively for potentially definite cultural factors.

But northern and southern had are in the same genetic cluster if you compare the population to japanese. We call the difference between north and south han, the distance by isolation, or speciation. Southern han is ancestral to northern han, and south east asian and tibetan is ancestral to southern han. Northern han was split from southern han long time ago, and underwent some environmental variations, but they are essentially closer to each other than to Machus, Korean, Mongols, who northern han was also mixed with over the years.

What I don't agree on your arguments are the bits where you discussed about the double eye lids of East Asians. Are you certain when Japanese have double eye lids they are mostly of what your pictures suggested? It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.
If that is really the case why they couldn’t tell I am not Japanese by just looking at me, I am sure other Chinese or Koreans, possibly even Vietnamese probably have experienced similar things.

You have not stated my argument correctly. My argument is that half of japanese population (called jomon/ainu) has a distinct genetic composition in contrast to south east+west asian cluster including northern/southern han, and northern asian like korean and mongols.

Yayoi japanese are entirely continental, and when you say japanese, you only points to this class of people. They are continental people so they do look similar to korean and chinese, or not distinguishable at all.

Jomon japanese who comprise about 40% of japanese do live in the northermost honshu, and southern parts of islands. Your experiences and observations may not be so useful, as that would be isolated events.

Japanese who lives in the islands for 30 years has seen so much more faces, and be more familiar with the many types of japanese. If you insist the empirical observations over the science, you may as well to consult those japanese who preferably moved from one place to another, and living in japan long time. The idea of asking chinese about the similarity or dissimilarity between han chinese and japanese are not seemingly sensible, as even japan-resident chinese would stay in the certain parts of islands only and staying for not longer than 10 years and they do not see variations of people therein. In your case, I have an impression that you have not even come to stay in japan for a few days, then the idea of empirical observations is too weak for making any points.

Below is the link to the quiz:
http://www.alllooksame.com/

I know this web site very well. It's used as a propaganda to make "all look like same". To be fair, this is an attempt of art, and admirable to some extent.

What the site is doing is to pick korean people who looks chinese or japanese (doesn't matter if their moms are japanese or chinese) and decorate them like japanese or chinese, or vice versa. If the comparisons be made between only jomon japanese and han chinese, that would probably turn to "alllookdifferent.com"

I never think this arbitrary effort would ever outweigh the scientific approach. It's only useful for one-sided view to lump japanese and korean together with han chinese.

[Grimmo]

You said eyes are not different in both japanese and han chinese, but
the quick comparisons do seem to show that they look different.
Japanese

Chinese





Japanese

Chinese





Japanese

Chinese

[Minty]

You said eyes are not different in both japanese and han chinese, but
the quick comparisons do seem to show that they look different.

No, I said “It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.”

Anyway if you are going to compare Chinese with single eye lids you should compare them with Japanese people with single eye lids.

I found this Japanese student’s picture on the web, a lot of the Japanese students or young people that I have seen look like this:



Another Japanese student:


And another one:


A Japanese male student with single eye lid:


Japanese and Chinese celebrities (comparison of double eye lids), most celebrities have double eye lids. Seriously I have rarely seen Japanese with sunken eyes.


Vivian chow a famous Chinese beauty from HK wearing Manchurian clothes with double eye lids.



Chinese actor with double eye lids


Chinese actress wearing Han fu ( Han’s traditional clothes) with double eye lids.



Japanese celebrity Yumi Adachi (安达佑实 ), she has double eye lids.

[img]http://www.ting163.com/singer/singerimg/95222kou.jpg[img]

Japanese celebrity Kou Shibasaki (柴崎幸) she also has double eye lids.


Japanese celebrity Yonekura, Ryoko (米仓凉子) Another Japanese celebrity who has double eye lids.


What makes you think Japanese mainly have sunken eyes?

Anyway I never said “all” Japanese and Chinese look the same but we are not that far in appearance as you have argued.

[Grimmo]

You are either too obssesed with this topic of scientific interest, or trying to show something

Most pictures you showed me are Yayoi-looking, and I showed to you the Jomon looking japanese people who has been around for centuries and ruling japan. As I said half of japanese are continental like you, and they have a relative similarity to south east/west sino-tibetan, and NE asian race.

If you don't want to diminish your credibility. you must distinguish the Jomon and Yayoi japanese.

[Minty]

You are either too obssesed with this topic of scientific interest, or trying to show something
Most pictures you showed me are Yayoi-looking, and I showed to you the Jomon looking japanese people who has been around for centuries and ruling japan. As I said half of japanese are continental like you, and they have a relative similarity to south east/west sino-tibetan, and NE asian race.
If you don't want to diminish your credibility. you must distinguish the Jomon and Yayoi japanese.

No, you are the one obsessed with this by flooding this thread with numerous pictures. I only start showing pictures to you because you want me to show you. I never said Chinese look like Jomon people.
But I do find Chinese people are not so different in appearance as Yayoi which is the majority of the Japanese people.
Anyway it is not as if though no Chinese have sunken eyes it is just not common at all.

Japanese gene stocks are, strictly speaking, from four major ethnicity:
1) Ainu and jomon, native islander
2) Yayoi: South west sibelian (including korean)
3) Yayoi: South east asian (including han chinese)
4) Polynesian:
(2) and (3) does make up approximately 50% of total japanese population, or could be even 60% given that this race is admixtured with (I) and (4).
So, if can generalize a bit,
(1)Ainu/jomon: 40%
(2)Chinese/Korea: 50%
(3)Polynesian: 10%

[Grimmo]

No, you are the one obsessed with this by flooding this thread with numerous pictures. I only start showing pictures to you because you want me to show you.

I asked you because I was not sure if you got my point. As for the pictures, mine is more or so scientifically motivated with systematic sampling of nobility under certain parts of islands, whereas you merely cited anyone you think related to japanese randomly.

I never said Chinese look like Jomon people.
But I do find Chinese people are not so different in appearance as Yayoi which is the majority of the Japanese people.

That's good. At least, you are convinced that jomon are different from chinese.

Anyway it is not as if though no Chinese have sunken eyes it is just not common at all.

I am aware of that, but those having sunken eyes do resemble northern asian than jomon japanese. There must also be jomon bloods in chinese and korean too, because of the japanese colonization of some parts of korea and china. But those are not to be called han ethnicity, because they are in modern definition mixed.

[Minty]

I asked you because I was not sure if you got my point. As for the pictures, mine is more or so scientifically motivated with systematic sampling of nobility under certain parts of islands, whereas you merely cited anyone you think related to Japanese randomly.

Oh please, this is the last time I will answer to you. I knew you would say my pictures are biased. Funny thing is when I first showed you pictures of what I considered as common Chinese you didn’t complaint they were inaccurate because they looked different from what you considered as the appearances of Japanese.

But after I showed you pictures of what I considered as the appearances of Yayoi ( the majority ), as my pictures do looked similar to those pictures of what I considered as common Chinese, you started to question the reliability or validity of my pictures.

So it is you who are biased.

Even you choose famous pictures of Japanese nobles who are not likely to be mixed outside of Japanese ethnicities for a long time because of their laws, but it does not mean most Japanese look like that.

I had selected some celebrities or Chinese volunteers who look close to some of the Southern Chinese that I know who have not been mixed with “outsiders” in their blood, if the Pop stars have been mixed with others they are known, because they are famous, so people are curious where they came from. Examples are Takeshi Kaneshiro (Half Japanese Half Taiwanese) Michele Reis (Half Chinese from Macau and half Portuguese)…etc.

These samurai has a history of some up to 1000 years or more , and this makes me feel that they are representative of both ainu/jomon and yayoi japanese.

You are trying to show pictures of people who have strong lineage of both ainu/jomon and yayoi people where as I only am saying the Chinese people don’t look that different to Japanese people and I meant the yayoi because they are the majority. I never indicated Okinawa people neither because they are the minority.

That's good. At least, you are convinced that jomon are different from Chinese

I never said they are the same people as Chinese, when I say Japanese people’s appearance are not that far from Chinese I meant the majority (the yayoi), you sir are putting words in my mouth.

I am aware of that, but those having sunken eyes do resemble northern Asian than jomon japanese. There must also be jomon bloods in chinese and korean too, because of the japanese colonization of some parts of korea and china. But those are not to be called Han ethnicity, because they are in modern definition mixed.

One of my deceased members of my family who was born before the Japanese invasion actually had sunken eyes.

But I would not link this to the Jomon because there are no records of my family ever been mixed with them. And no you don’t get the see the pictures of my family; we are not your guinea pigs. Once again I never said anything about Japanese people are the same people as Chinese. I never said Jomon/Ainu/Okinawa people look like Chinese, I only said the majority (the yayoi people) are not so different in appearance to those of Chinese.

[Grimmo]

Even you choose famous pictures of Japanese nobles who are not likely to be mixed outside of Japanese ethnicities for a long time because of their laws, but it does not mean most Japanese look like that.

And if my attempt was succesful, it's called the random sampling without bias within jomon population, or yayoi population. I was not interested in how all japanese looks like, but how the ancestor of japanese looks and where they came from which is the subject at hand.

I would very much appreciate if you can do the same, like posting the pictures of Confucius family.

Even you choose famous pictures of Japanese nobles who are not likely to be mixed outside of Japanese ethnicities for a long time because of their laws, but it does not mean most Japanese look like that.

Of course, 50% are enough to be considered "majority".
For example, han chinese is majority, because they comprise
90% of the total chinese population.

[QUOTE]One of my deceased members of my family who was born before the Japanese invasion actually had sunken eyes.
But I would not link this to the Jomon because there are no records of my family ever been mixed with them.[\QUOTE]
Northern asian has sunken eyes and high nosebridge, but their distinct phenotypes are nothing similar to japanese.

And no you don’t get the see the pictures of my family; we are not your guinea pigs.

Come on, your friend is not guinea pig. I did not insult your friends or anything. You and your friend did it to prove your point, which only proved that chinese eyes are flat to the facial surfaces.

[dangdaga]

you turn them upside down, it says on their feet : "MADE IN JAPAN".

Frank

[Grimmo]

[Grimmo]

Regarding origin of han chinese, the link is very informative. I hope this one will be spread to enlighten people.
http://www.chinahistoryforum.com/ind...pic=10953&st=0

[Blututh]

Here's the current theory of human migration patterns, commonly accepted by the scientific community. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_migration

[ippolito]

1 Korean
1 chinese
3 Japanese

wich is my score?
Ippolito

It is very difficult to determine southern and northern Chinese even the two are genetically quite different. I pick him because I have seen thousands of Chinese who look roughly like that. In the case of Chinese, it is not accomplishable to search for an individual model or an original as symbolic of her community, exclusively for potentially definite cultural factors.
What I don't agree on your arguments are the bits where you discussed about the double eye lids of East Asians. Are you certain when Japanese have double eye lids they are mostly of what your pictures suggested? It is just that I have seen quite some number of Japanese with similar double eye lids to those of Chinese. I also disagree that you think on average, Japanese appearances are nowhere in East Asian.
If that is really the case why they couldn’t tell I am not Japanese by just looking at me, I am sure other Chinese or Koreans, possibly even Vietnamese probably have experienced similar things.

I found a Chinese girl which has a rather typical Chinese face.

This is a Taiwanese singer, his face is quite typical of Han, Chinese.


This is Ren Xian Qi, a Taiwanese singer.
I choose these two celebrities because they are not pretty boys, but rather average Chinese looking, they are famous for their talents not for their looks unlike some others.

Another Chinese person with a common chinese face.

Out of these three pictures which one do you think is Japanese, Chinese and Korean?
Why don't you take a quiz to see whether you can determine who is who?
Below is the link to the quiz:
http://www.alllooksame.com/

[ricecake]

Well, I think that two migrations happened in Japan. The first was by the Ainu, who arrived from Europe long before the Yayoi and Jomons from present day South Korea arrived, and drove the Ainu to Hokkaido and Okinawa, where they still reside today.

CORRECTION ..... Yayoi CAME FROM China's coastal region.

[ricecake]

And as for the Okinawa thing, when the Yayoi and Jomon migrated to Japan, they pushed the Ainu from the main islands, they pushed them down to Okinawa Island, and up to Hokkaido.

Ancient Okinawa people WERE CHINESE.

[ricecake]

Regarding origin of han chinese, the link is very informative. I hope this one will be spread to enlighten people.

Caught you ..... MC420 RAT ?

I knew you're A VERY DEDICATED Viet-troll make time wallpaper Asian forums with FICTITIOUS THEORY of Chinese and Viets same root crap talk.

Didn't CHF member Prince of South OUTSMARTED YOU by deciphered the " marker CLUES " in those so-called DNA report CONCLUDED NO GENETICS TIE BETWEEN your lowly Viets and Han Chinese.He and I communicated via several PM's,he also agreed you're A TROUBLEMAKER.He wrote in one PM,he ridiculed you with passages from Sun Zi's strategy of war philosophy.

You're A VICIOUS FELLA .... what's your problem with Chinese ? Are you in alot of psychological PAINS for Chinese rejection as " EQUALS ".If so,go seek a certified therapist or psychiatrist.

[ricecake]

Han chinese is originated from south east and south west asia.

The UPPER ARROW denoted as " Han/Tibetan in Chinese script " CLEARLY POINTS TO upper Yellow River Basin where Hua-Xia tribes settled,with ORIGIN MIGRATION ROUTE THROUGH Tibet Kunlun mountains.These ancient tribal people were one of two early Han Chinese origins,along with other half-lings Dong-Yi of Shandong peninsula.Han Chinese race is MAINLY OF North Eastern Asian stock.Nowadays,Han IS A CULTURAL IDENTITY not a race.

The TWO LOWER ARROWS point to Yangtze River where Miao and Yao ancestors settled,plus various indigenous tribes made settlement in southern China what's today's China's Gunagxi/Canton/Fujian provinces PROBABLY CAME NORTHWARD THROUGH Vietnam or SE Asia.Those ancient southern China's indigenous tribes later labeled as Yue by Chinese historians MIGHT HAVE GENETICS TIE TO Viets,Thais,and Laotians with their languages in the Tai-Kadai group.

China's SW region has ABORIGINAL MINORITIES with some have blood-tie to Viets who are passionate searching for " southern Chinese blood connection ",this is where Vietnamese can find their long " lost siblings " if scientifically proven.

[ricecake]

Regarding origin of han chinese, the link is very informative. I hope this one will be spread to enlighten people.

Of-course,you have a " hidden agenda " to spread otherwise you wouldn't surf this forum.

This is a thread on " origin of Japanese people ",WHY are here to talk about Han Chinese which is a " Heinz 57 " race with multiple origins and it's MORE A CULTURAL IDENTITY nowadays.

Do you have a full time job ?

You have UNHEALTHY INFACTUATION with " Han Chinese origin " ?

Are you a Vietmnamese of mixed-heritage with paternal Chinese ancestry,neglected by Chinese people don't accept you as " full Chinese " ?

[caster51]

縄文人はアジア人は絶対に持っていないとされる。ＹＡＰ+遺伝子を持っていることが判明してきている。これは先述した とおり縄文人がかなり早い古い段階で白人種から枝分か れした為だと思われる。本土日本人は全体の75％にYAP+遺伝子を高頻度に持つ人種で、これは少数民族を除いてアジア で唯一。ちなみに縄文人の末裔で� るアイヌ人はYAP+遺伝子を88％持っている。この事から日本人全体が縄文の血を継いでいることが 分かり、日本人は顔付き以外にも中国人や韓国人など他 の東アジア人に比べ、かなり異質な民族で� る事が判明 してきている

http://bbs.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.p...=7&nid=1682225
http://bbs.enjoykorea.jp/tbbs/read.p...64&nid=1682289

[Grimmo]

Caught you ..... MC420 RAT ?
I knew you're A VERY DEDICATED Viet-troll make time wallpaper Asian forums with FICTITIOUS THEORY of Chinese and Viets same root crap talk.

You're A VICIOUS FELLA .... what's your problem with Chinese ? Are you in alot of psychological PAINS for Chinese rejection as " EQUALS ".If so,go seek a certified therapist or psychiatrist.

I'm not MC420. He merely cited other guys' posts. As far as I read his posts in CHF, I do not see any evidences linking me with MC420. Anyway, you made an interesting all-by-single-person hypothesis, but I can attest that it is an incorrect assumption.

[ricecake]

Oddly though,you purposedly didn't cite one CHF poster SMARTLY DECIPHERED " marker clues " in so-called DNA reports CONCLUDED NO GENETICS TIE between Han Chinese and Viets.

You aka MC420 thought you could " hoodwinked " Chinese on lack of English comprehension,instead that poster RIDICULED YOU with passages from SunZi's strategy of war philosophy.

[Grimmo]

Oddly though,you purposedly didn't cite one CHF poster SMARTLY DECIPHERED " marker clues " in so-called DNA reports CONCLUDED NO GENETICS TIE between Han Chinese and Viets.
You aka MC420 thought you could " hoodwinked " Chinese on lack of English comprehension,instead that poster RIDICULED YOU with passages from SunZi's strategy of war philosophy.

What kind of science is that? you mean "NO" ties to chinese? Certainly, it sounds like a pseudo-science. Maybe, you can invite your masterful scientist to your JT forum, so hypes
can be properly challenged.