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Thread: What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

  1. #76
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    Quote Originally Posted by Dharma
    Here I listed two useful websites, you may want to have a look:
    http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm
    http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html
    Actually I noticed that the Japanese traditions and costumes have a lot of similarities with Chinese Han Dynasty (e.g. tatami, low table) and Tang Dynasty Period.
    Han chinese is originated from south east and south west asia.



    The following figures came from National Science Museum at Ueno/Shinjuku, and supposed to reflect how the mainstream scientist (inland/overseas) sees the origin of japanese people.



    Mainstream hypothesis of migrations into the Japanese islands from Sibelia and Korea. Red=Jomon/Ainu (native islanders), Yellow=Yayoi (korean/chinese)



    It is known that japanese shares about 60% of genes from continents, and 40% from Ainu/Jomon, proto-caucasoid.

  2. #77
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    http://mbe.oxfordjournals.org/cgi/co...ull/19/10/1737
    Free Online Journal Edition

    The Emerging Limbs and Twigs of the East Asian mtDNA Tree
    Toomas Kivisild*, Helle-Viivi Tolk*, Jüri Parik*, Yiming Wang, Surinder S. Papiha, Hans-Jürgen Bandelt and Richard Villems*

    *Department of Evolutionary Biology, Tartu University and Estonian Biocentre, Estonia;
    Department of Medical Genetics, Sun Yat-Sen University of Medical Sciences, People's Republic of China;
    Department of Human Genetics, University of Newcastle-upon-Tyne;
    Department of Mathematics, University of Hamburg, Germany

    We determine the phylogenetic backbone of the East Asian mtDNA tree by using published complete mtDNA sequences and assessing both coding and control region variation in 69 Han individuals from southern China. This approach assists in the interpretation of published mtDNA data on East Asians based on either control region sequencing or restriction fragment length polymorphism (RFLP) typing. Our results confirm that the East Asian mtDNA pool is locally region-specific and completely covered by the two superhaplogroups M and N. The phylogenetic partitioning based on complete mtDNA sequences corroborates existing RFLP-based classification of Asian mtDNA types and supports the distinction between northern and southern populations. We describe new haplogroups M7, M8, M9, N9, and R9 and demonstrate by way of example that hierarchically subdividing the major branches of the mtDNA tree aids in recognizing the settlement processes of any particular region in appropriate time scale. This is illustrated by the characteristically southern distribution of haplogroup M7 in East Asia, whereas its daughter-groups, M7a and M7b2, specific for Japanese and Korean populations, testify to a presumably (pre-)Jomon contribution to the modern mtDNA pool of Japan.


    Fig. 3.\Phylogenetic reconstruction and geographic distribution of haplogroup M7. a, A network of HVS-I haplotypes, which comprises the superposition of the most parsimonious trees for the three postulated sets of M7a, M7b, and M7c sequences. The mutations along the bold links were only analyzed for a few Japanese sequences (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ) and\toward the root of M\for some Chinese sequences (this study): the corresponding individuals with (partial) coding region information are boxed. Numbers along links indicate transitions; recurrent HVS-I mutations are underlined. The age of mtDNA clades is calculated (along the tree indicated by unbroken lines) according to Forster et al. (1996) , with standard errors estimated as in Saillard et al. (2000) . Sample codes (and sources): AI\Ainu (Horai et al. 1996 ); CH\Chinese (Betty et al. 1996 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ; Qian et al. 2001 ; Yao et al. 2002 ; this study); IN\Indonesian (Redd and Stoneking 1999 ); JP\Japanese (Ozawa et al. 1991 ; Ozawa 1995 ; Horai et al. 1996 ; Nishino et al. 1996 ; Seo et al. 1998 ; Nishimaki et al. 1999 ); KN\Koreans (Horai et al. 1996 ; Lee et al. 1997 ; Pfeiffer et al. 1998 ); MA\Mansi (Derbeneva et al. 2002 ); MJ\Majuro (Sykes et al. 1995 ); MO\Mongolians (Kolman, Sambuughin, and Bermingham 1996 ); PH\Philippines (Sykes et al. 1995 ; Maca-Meyer 2001 ); RY\Ryukyuans (Horai et al. 1996 ); SB\Sabah (Sykes et al. 1995 ); TW\Taiwanese Han (Horai et al. 1996 ) and aboriginals (Melton et al. 1998 ); UI\Uighur (Comas et al. 1998 ; Yao et al. 2000 ); YA\Yakuts (Derenko and Shields 1997 ). b, Frequencies of the subgroups of M7 in Asian populations are inferred from the preceding HVS-I as well as partial HVS-I and RFLP data (VN\Vietnamese: Ballinger et al. 1992 ; Lum et al. 1998 ). Mainland Han Chinese are denoted as follows: GD\Guangdong, LN\Liaoning, QD\Qingdao, WH\Wuhan, XJ\Xinjiang, YU\Yunnan (Yao et al. 2002 ), SH\Shanghai (Nishimaki et al. 1999 ). The number of M7 sequences in relation to the sample size is indicated under each pie slice proportional to the M7 frequency

    --------------------------------------
    So chinese is much closer to Vietnam, and Thailand, and Nepal in terms of genes.

    Some tiny portions of SK shares Jomon and Ainu bloods, (YAP+: 2% of SK, mtDNA markers: 5% of SK). This msut be due to the recent colonization of korea, and possibly long-time trade relationship.

  3. #78
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    According to genetic results, apporx. 60% or more Japanese are of continental origin (korean/chinese). However, there are significant jomon/ainu bloods in them.

    I think on average, japanese appearances are nowhere in east asian.
    My guess is due to the the distorsion introduced by jomon/ainu bloods, and their unique facial structures. I guess, there must be some japanese who could be almost deemed as chinese or korean, but there are japanese who is completely outside the chinese/korean facial features.

    ---------------
    http://www-personal.une.edu.au/~pbrown3/brown99.pdf

    The first modern East Asians ?:
    another look at Upper Cave
    101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
    Peter Brown
    Department of Archaeology and Palaeoanthropology
    University of New England
    Armidale, NSW 2351, Australia



    MINATOGAWA 1
    The Minatogawa 1 male skeleton was found in 1970 at the
    Minatogawa limestone quarry on Okinawa (Suzuki and Hanihara 1982).
    111
    The first modern East Asians?: another look at Upper Cave 101, Liujiang and Minatogawa 1
    Three female skeletons, in varying states of preservation, and assorted
    other fragments were also recovered. The Minatogawa skeletons have
    been described in detail in Suzuki and Hanihara (1982), with Suzuki
    (1982) describing the crania. Additional comparative information can
    be found in Baba and Nerasaki (1991). The Minatogawa 1 cranium is
    not as complete as Liujiang and Upper Cave 101, particularly in the
    basi-cranium, facial skeleton and temporal regions. Several of the
    dimensions used in the analysis to follow had to be estimated.
    Unlike Liujiang and Upper Cave there does not appear to have
    been any concern over the reliability of the dating of Minatogawa.
    Radiocarbon dates of 18,250 }650 to 16,600 }300 years BP were obtained
    from charcoal inside the fissure (Kobayashi et al. 1974). Fluorine content
    of human and non-human bones within the site suggested that they
    were contemporaneous (Matsufura 1982). Assuming that the site was
    well stratified, that the carbon dates do bracket the skeletons and that
    the skeletons were not intrusive, then Minatogawa remains do have a
    strong claim to being the earliest modern human skeletons in East Asia.



    Overall, the scatter plot of Functions 1 and 2 indicate the relative morphological
    similarity of the modern and Neolithic Chinese groups, while the
    modern Japanese are closer to a wider range of East Asian and Native
    American populations. Plots of the total group dispersions associated
    with Figure 3 revealed the large degree of overlap between the Neolithic
    and modern Chinese and between the modern Japanese, Anyang,
    Hainan and Native American groups. The Eskimo and Ainu were more
    distinct, as were both of the Australian Aboriginal groups.

    Please note that northern and southern japanese are in the middle point between N/S chinese and ainu/jomon/minatogawa. This represents the japanese population
    divided into the two completely diverged skull/facial structures.

  4. #79
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    I presume that on the northernmost japan (aomori, akita, etc), people's face can have many features like ainu, jomon, minatogawa, but no chinese like facial structures could be expected, because of the genetic distributions of YAP+ and DE-YAP and some mtDNA markers. The rest will be defined as yayoi coming from the continent through korean peninsula.


    The results show the average faces of east asian (and some other related)populations.

    Please notice that N/S japanese faces are slightly different from N/S chinese. I think this is due to the ainu/jomon population and/or mixtures of both natives and continentals.

    Northern chinese are independent of modern yayoi japanese facial structures. Southern chinese are somewhat similar, so the southern chinese tribes may have immigrated to japan through korea 2kya, which now comprises the 60% of total japanese population.

    Please note the ainu/jomon (native japanese islanders) which should represent roughly 40% or less of total japanese population (by the results of genetic analysis) shows dissimilarity to the Northern/Southern chinese.

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    Method of matching up the morphological data with samples:
    So what does Ainu and Northern Japanese really look like?
    Superficially, we have to consider the representative of the population rather than averaging out. I think the person from the noble family seems to be the most suitable sample for dissecting the phenotype of northern japanese. This is due to the traditional japanese system that samurai or any noble class belong to the lords so the number of years these lords govern means that the samurai under the hierachy has lived with them and rather stay in one place for the long period of time.
    Traditional samurai (bushi) and aristocrat (kuge) are hereditary. It's not like your boss fussing around his people, and throw them away. They have very limited capability to even fire off their workers. Except a few dictators like Oda Nobunaga, and Taira no masakado, local lords have to take care of people as much as they do to their family. You can verify this by looking at the cheap furnitures of the lords, if you ever had a chance to visit shiro au japon. In cases the noumin (farmers) complain to the central authority (Tenno or Shogun), they themselves be replaced with other guys. Attachment of those nobles to their lands are unusual by western standard, and can only be understood in cultural context.
    From heian to edo period, japanese feudal systems impose severe restrictions (shouen seido to baku han taisei) on moving of people. People belongs to shou (or han), and are not allowed to move to other prefectures. This is why japanese calls their society, mura (village). They don't accept outsiders, for if they do it, they will be punished by the highest authority to illegally admit people from the outside. This static nature of society seems to be of particular importance, as this seems to be a much powerful tool to separate the population.
    Taking samples based on locations are justified given that northern han and southern han chinese are sometimes merely classified by their birthplaces, although researchers claim that they do more surveys, but in countries other than japan, you have to make quiet a strong assumption. How about Caviella at Stanford? He's using this method on northern and southern han chinese population. So as long as we stick to the old Japanese population, our method does not go beyond the conventional research method. You just need to take the oldest pictures of the oldest family people, then I think the method is accurate enough.
    The figure above of the National Science Museum at Ueno shows the predicted distributions of modern japane ethno-demography. We see the strong support for assuming that eastern, north eastern, northern japan, and southern japan has the higher frequency of habitation of native islanders. The comparison of skulls with, say, central japanese may reveal some morphological differences between each of japanese populations.
    I think some renowned or famous guys in this field like Philip Deitiker used more radical approaches for classifying people by looks, and that's similar to mainstream genealogist. I used more conventional approaches than these people. I used the Brown's resutls (posted above) based on Howell's approaches and tried to match up the results with some historical figures who has more information known than J-POP or K-POP singers who only has the birthplace on their profiles. These samurai has a history of some up to 1000 years or more , and this makes me feel that they are representative of both ainu/jomon and yayoi japanese.
    Northern Japanese
    Mutsu Munemitsu, A minister of Foreign Affair

    He is nothern japanese from the noblest family in northern japan.
    His family tree is from Hiraizumi-Fujiwara clan (Emishi related Ainu).
    His ancestor includes some figures like Date Masamune, and the origin of family dates back more than 1000 years ago,
    The same person

    Iinuma Sadakichi (1853-1931) born in Aizu-han

    Eastern Japanese
    Katsu Kaishu, Admiral of the Shogun's fleet


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    Now, having said about the nothern japanese (northern can be replaced by northernmost). I would like to mention about the southernmost japanese.
    They are known to be related to Ryukyuan/Okinawan, and their phenotypes seem to be fairly ainu, but they seem to be mixed with continentals, so they show more varieties. Prime Minister Koizumi's family comes from the noble family in Kagoshima-ken, and he belongs to this class of people.

    Togo Heihachiro, An admiral, A national hero in Japan-Russo War (no involvement in WWII)


    Southernmost Japanese. His ancestor was a neighbor of koizumi's.

    Togo Heihachiro in his 58 years old

    Okubo Toshimichi, Revolutionary, A founder of Meiji Government
    Born in Kagoshima, Southernmost Japan


    He is the suppoter of domestic development and resisted the
    "Conquering of Korea".

    He suppressed regional rebellions by the former
    samurai class that ended with the Satsuma Rebellion,
    but was assassinated by a former samurai in 1878.

    His background is middle-ranking samurai, and his phenotype
    seems to be from the relation to Ryukyuan, native islanders.

    The same person

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    Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP =Japanese. Han=Chinese

    Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

    The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

    The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

    Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian population.

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    Group of Ainu people, 1904 photograph, taken in Hokkaido Japan
    From Wikipedia "Ainu People"
    Due to intermarriage with the Japanese and ongoing absorption into the predominant culture, few living Ainu settlements exist. Many "authentic Ainu villages" advertised in Hokkaido are simply tourist attractions.
    If you search the Ainu people over the Web, you will most likely see the fake Ainu people's picture. These are fake japanese pretending to be ainu for tourism


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    Komura Jutaro (Southern Japanese), Minister of Foreign Affair, Harvard Graduate


    Akiyama Saneyuki (Southern Japanese), Hero in Japan-Russo War, Vice-Admiral, died in 1918


    Akiyama Yoshifuru (Southern Japanese), General, The founder of Japanese Cavalry

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    Average (not necessarily typical) Korean face

    http://www.andongkim.com/articles/20...koreanface.htm
    Korean scientists allegedly produced what they call, "the average Korean face". The Korean Institute of Science and Technology information (KISTI) working together with the Catholic Institute for Applied Anatomy made computer tomographic scans of Koreans last year and with the aid of a supercomputer produced a "digital Korean" -- a 3-D video of the average Korean's physical structure.
    Do you see much differences from the northen japanese?
    Northern han CHINESE face.
    http://www.angle.org/anglonline/?req...e=05&page=0393
    Perception of Facial Esthetics by Native Chinese Participants by Using Manipulated Digital Imagery Techniques
    Sample population
    The Chinese rater group consisted of 85 native Chinese participants from Beijing. Of these raters, 38 were women, and 47 were men (45% women and 55% men). Their mean age was 26.3 } 5.3 years.
    Manipulated digital imagery technique
    An adult native Chinese male and female stimulus face (A) was selected for digital distortion (Figures 1 and 2 ). Both subjects were 24 years old and were chosen because they exhibited Class I occlusions with average dental proclination and balanced lower facial skeletal proportions previously established as norms for this population. They were meant to be representative of the average facial profile for this ethnic group. Because the Chinese have a shorter than average anterior cranial base and a dental proclination greater than Caucasian norms, their gnormalh profile would be classified, by Caucasian standards, as bimaxillary protrusive.29,30 This profile was selected as representative of the gnormalh Chinese participant.

    FIGURE 1. The gnormalh Chinese male stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions

    FIGURE 2. The gnormalh Chinese female stimulus face (A) with a balance of dental and skeletal proportions

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    YAYOI (KOREAN, chinese, continental-related) Japanese
    I will complete my posts of noble Japanese by attaching the pictures of the people who are born in the country which is one of the closest to Korean Peninsula. Choshu.

    Japanese Modernization actually comes from the union of Choshu (Yamaguchi-ken, Korea or Continental) and Satsuma (Kagoshima-ken, Native islanders such as Ainu, Ryukyuan, Jomon) Clan. It may be possible to compare the two? I think it is a nice idea to see the immediate differences with the earlier posted picture capturing only native islanders (mainly Satsuma clan).

    Let's look at the central japanese people (Yayoi aka Korean), born in Choshu (Yamaguchi-ken). I chose them because of the traditional baku-han system which forbids the moving of people between state defined prefectures. These Samurai belong to their lords regardless of locations, so the most samurai forms secluded community based on some central isle lords like Ouchi, Mouri clans.

    Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, born in Choshu


    He is a central japanese from Yamaguchi-ken. Geographically, Yamaguchi is one of the closest country to Korea. He could be one of the Korean-origin Japanese.

    His obsession with Korea is known by his infamous annexation of Korea.

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    Another Yayoi (aka Korea, China, other continentals) Japanese, Born in Choshu
    Okuma Shigenobu, The minister of Foreign Affair

    He is from Choshu, Yamaguchi. He is a typical central Japanese.
    His look is in contrast to those Shimazu-clan and northern japanese noble.

    Katsura Taro, Prime Minister, Born in Choshu (Chinese, Korean, continental, related)



    He is the most tactful politician devising the overthrow of Shogun Regime, and hand the power back to imperial family. He was sent to Germany to learn strategy and tactics.

    As with Ito Hirobumi, the first prime minister of Japan, his background is humble, and from not so wealthy background.

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    Now Let's assess the Chinese appearance. We'll take samples from the historical figures again for the reasons that they are less subject to the mixes with other asian, or even caucasoids. I tried to choose samples mostly from southern han chinese because of morphological results stating the closer proximity to general japanese population including both jomon and yayoi

    Note: Northern and Southern han chinese comprises 90% of total population in china.

    Yuan Shikai, Han Chinese General, Republic president, dictator and chinese emperor


    K'ung Hsiang-hsi, Chinese Banker and Politician


    Name: Sung Chiao-jen (1882–1913) Chinese revolutionary and political leader, later assasinated allegedly by Yuan Shikai.
    Ethnicity: han chinese
    BirthPlace: unknown
    Lineage: unknown




    Name: Hu, Die
    Ethnicity: han chinese
    BirthPlace: Shanghai?
    Lineage: unknown



    Name: Ruan Lingyu
    Birthplace: Shanghai
    Ethnicity: Han Chinese
    Lineage: Unknown



    Name: Chen Duxiu (1879–1942), founder of Chinese Communist Party (Anhui Patriotic Association), Controversial figure as he stayed in Japan for a while. Later became Trotskyist
    Birthplaces: Anhui (Central China)
    Ethnicity: Han Chinese
    Lineage: Unknown




    Name: Li Dazhao (1888-1927), Chinese intellectual who cofounded the Communist Party of China with Chen Duxiu in 1921. Studied Political Economy at Waseda University.
    Birthplaces: Unknown
    Ethnicity: Han Chinese
    Lineage: Unknown



    Name: Wang Ming (1904-1974) a senior leader of the early Chinese Communist Party (CCP)
    Birthplace: Anhui
    Ethnicity: Han Chinese
    Lineage: Unknown




    Name: Hu Shih (1891-1962) Chinese philosopher and essayist. He studied at Cornell and Columbia University. Known to be influenced by John Dewey. Important figure in May Fourth Movement.
    Birthplace: Shanghai
    Ethnicity: Han chinese
    Lineages: Ancestry in Anhui

    Chen_Duxiu and Hu Shih

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    Mao Zedong, Chairman of the Communist Party of China




    Sun Yat-sen


    Zhou Enlai, Premier of People's Republic of China



    Example Picture: (Information from wikipedia)
    Name: General Chiang Kai-shek, leader of the Kuomintang
    Ethnicity: Han Chinese
    BirthPlace: Zhejiang Province.
    Lineage: Jiangsu, juncture between North China and South China


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    Observe that eyes of chinese are almost all double eyelids with obscure lines. Also, their facial structure especially around eyes and eyebrows are almost flat.

    Now looking back japanese eyes, they don't usually have a double eyelid, but the facial surfaces between eyes and eyebrows are not flat, more depth in 3 dimension. Protruding eyebrow and sunken eyes.


    JAPANESE FACE: (Ryukyuan/Ainu/Jomon)







    CHINESE FACE:






    SOUTHERN HAN CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids. Also notice that eye and eyebrows are positioned on almost the same level, giving even flater impressions. The epicanthic fold are heavily expressed. Jaws are wider, and possibly roundly formed

    JAPANESE: Eyes are placed deeper inside the skull, giving the sunken eyes with single eyelid, or double eyelids formed along with skull (in chinese face, double eyelids are simply formed with eye folds. Japanese double eyelids, if any, have a clear line aligned with skulls, and expressed outerior on the face surface as opposed to chinese interior eyelid). Epicanthic folds not highly expressed, but idyosyncrasies of eyes are expressed as the narrowly visible area of the eyes. Jaws are narrow, and possible crooked teeth are often observed

  16. #91
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    Observe that eyes of chinese are almost all double eyelids with obscure lines. Also, their facial structure especially around eyes and eyebrows are almost flat.
    Most Chinese do not have double eye lids, the examples you picked just so happened to be a group who does.

    Many East Asian girls are undergoing eyelid surgery known as blepharoplasty.
    The surgery involves making incisions at the top of the upper eyelid, removing the fat, and thus transforming the single 'slanted' eyelid into a double 'creased' eyelid.

    Statistics show that 50% of Asian women are born with single eyelids. This surgery is especially prominent in Korea and Japan. Possibly in Chinese societies too but Chinese are poorer (due to communist China) so in general, most can't afford this kind of surgery.

    Now looking back japanese eyes, they don't usually have a double eyelid, but the facial surfaces between eyes and eyebrows are not flat, more depth in 3 dimension. Protruding eyebrow and sunken eyes.
    It is true a lot of Chinese have flatter features but I do not think most Japanese have 3 dimensional features and I have seen a lot of Japanese and Chinese.

    SOUTHERN HAN CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids. Also notice that eye and eyebrows are positioned on almost the same level, giving even flater impressions. The epicanthic fold are heavily expressed. Jaws are wider, and possibly roundly formed
    The stereotypical southern Chinese:
    •Has almond-shaped eyes
    •Is shorter and has a smooth, round face (more than likely, no facial hair)

    I think you should not use movie stars as examples because they usually have double eye lids as it is considered to be beautiful in not just Chinesefs taste but in East Asian's perception of beauty in general. Most Chinese do not have double eye lids.

    JAPANESE: Eyes are placed deeper inside the skull, giving the sunken eyes with single eyelid, or double eyelids formed along with skull (in chinese face, double eyelids are simply formed with eye folds. Japanese double eyelids, if any, have a clear line aligned with skulls, and expressed outerior on the face surface as opposed to chinese interior eyelid). Epicanthic folds not highly expressed, but idyosyncrasies of eyes are expressed as the narrowly visible area of the eyes. Jaws are narrow, and possible crooked teeth are often observed
    Of course Chinese and Japanese donft really look the same but in comparison to Indians or Vikings...etc they do. Itfs just like Germans and French donft really look the same but in comparison to Koreans or Arabians...etc they do.

    My husband is often mistaken to be German in Europe but he is French.
    Actually his ethnicity is half Belge half Italian but he is French as he is born and has lived in France all his life.

    When I took him to Taiwan for vacation one of the sales girls in the bridal shop actually thought he was Middle Eastern.

    So ridiculous just because he has dark brown hair and black beard and her perception of French are either white people who have light brown hairs or blonde hairs. But he has never been mistaken not to be of European descendents from any one else before.
    Last edited by Minty; Mar 30, 2006 at 22:37.

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    Thank you for the reply, Minty.
    I presume that you didn't have enough time to
    go through all my posts, and jumpt through conclusion
    and made comments, which are understandable.
    Japanese gene stocks are, strictly speaking, from four major ethnicity:
    1) Ainu and jomon, native islander
    2) Yayoi: South west sibelian (including korean)
    3) Yayoi: South east asian (including han chinese)
    4) Polynesian:
    (2) and (3) does make up approximately 50% of total japanese population, or could be even 60% given that this race is admixtured with (I) and (4).
    So, if can generalize a bit,
    (1)Ainu/jomon: 40%
    (2)Chinese/Korea: 50%
    (3)Polynesian: 10%
    A few things I want to ask is:
    Statistics show that 50% of Asian women are born with single eyelids.
    -- where is the source of this?
    The stereotypical southern Chinese:
    •Has almond-shaped eyes
    •Is shorter and has a smooth, round face (more than likely, no facial hair)
    -- Interesting comment. Your description of southern han chinese could be more biased than my comment. Could you demonstrate your points by giving the examples? Guidelines are that it has to be a picture taken from 1800-1950 so that the lineages are much clearer than modern asian, who are more difficult to traced.
    Most Chinese do not have double eye lids, the examples you picked just so happened to be a group who does.
    -- My point is more or so that with a thick eye fold, double eyelids can be much easily formed, and does not necessarily mean that all chinese are double eye-lids. But northeastern asian's morphology generally supports the single eyelid theory. Quality of double eyelids on japanese and chinese are certainly different in these regards, if there is one speaking of on japanese at all.
    Lastly, why chinese people likes to state that they are the same people as japanese? Don't they have a pride? In terms of Morphology and genetics, many japanese are remote to han chinese people, and lumping all together is misleading, because some japanese looks caucasoid or polynesian than chinese. If more than 40% of that race is not looking chinese, then the claim of identity in east asia does not hold.
    Last edited by Grimmo; Mar 31, 2006 at 03:17.

  18. #93
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    Regarding the origin of chinese people, han chinese are the
    mutants of south east and south west asian (e.g., vietnamese,
    thais, and nepalese)



    Japanese Ainu and Jomons are called the proto-caucasoids, and
    very different from han chinese people. Maybe, Japanese you saw was only
    yayoi (continental) japanese, or mixed jomon/yayoi.

  19. #94
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    Hi

    just found an interesting image on jomon (native islander) and yayoi (continental, korean and chinese). Does anyone have more pictures on this?


  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Grimmo
    Hi
    just found an interesting image on jomon (native islander) and yayoi (continental, korean and chinese). Does anyone have more pictures on this?
    May I ask what you're trying to prove by flooding this thread with these portraits (& other pics)? Judging from your (Ken?) thread in another forum, there is probably more to come.

    Outer appearance (esp. modern) is much too varied to conclude from this on what happened 2000 years ago. Concentrating on "nobility" won't do the trick either, because you don't know how much incest has been going on.

    Do you have any source for your idea that Ainu are proto-caucasoid?

    Quote Originally Posted by Minty
    Itfs just like Germans and French donft really look the same
    Er..., what's the difference? I suppose, there is a greater difference between a French Fleming & a Mediterranean Frenchman than between the Fleming & a Rhinelander.
    Both France & Germany have quite a mixed population, anyway.

  21. #96
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    Outer appearance (esp. modern) is much too varied to conclude from this on what happened 2000 years ago. Concentrating on "nobility" won't do the trick either, because you don't know how much incest has been going on.
    I don't how much lies in their family tree is in their nobles, but I clustered them in the regions of high ainu gene density and low ainu gene density.


    Do you have any source for your idea that Ainu are proto-caucasoid?
    To show that Ainu is proto-caucasoid, I cannot merely concern the population in east asia. We know the two types of proto-caucasoid features in tiny minority of native north american and native aborigine. By proto-caucasoid, there has to be one of the three conditions satisfied:

    1) Ancestral to the modern caucasoid and mongoloid in central asia
    2) Split from both population 30-50k years ago
    3) Facial features common to other known proto-caucasoids (either north american or Australian Aborigine)

    1) hard to prove by population genetics, as the extensive mutation and speciation makes it diverse even within the same proto-caucasoids cluster. Main problem is extreme environmental variation and the extinction and assiimilation of species so that we no longer have an ideal pure proto-caucasoid reference population. In the north sibelia and Australia, the temperature difference can be a factor. But if you like I can post the genentic connection of Ainu to native northern americans, although at the moment, my institution are not subscribed to that particular journal.

    2) This is rather lengthy to show, and still disputed widely. Possibly, another one whole page of this thread. Should I do it? Bossel?

    3) Minatogawa man found in Okinawa, Aomori, and Hokkaido was posted above. please refer back to my earlier posts. In principal component analysis, Jomon's morphology is the closest to Australian Aborigine. Ainu and Eskimo forms another cluster in comparison with other population, both are close to Minatogawa man skull, and there may be a possible connection.

  22. #97
    Seeing is believing Minty's Avatar
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    where is the source of this?
    From here:

    http://www.asianbleph.com/faq.html

    Interesting comment. Your description of southern han chinese could be more biased than my comment.
    Umc possibly but these are very rough stereotypes, and are largely perflexed both by additional stereotypes by province (or even county) and by real life.

    Could you demonstrate your points by giving the examples? Guidelines are that it has be a picture taken from 1800-1950 so that the lineages are much clearer than modern asian, who are more difficult to trace the root.
    I donft think our appearances have changed much since the 1940s. The best examples are my grand parents who have the features close to a typical Southern Chinese I describe but I donft think it is a good idea to put my familyfs picture on the web. I donft think by just picking famous Chinese people mainly from or close to the Second World War periods on the web indicates the looks of most Southern Chinese, because famous Chinese do not necessarily equate typical Chinese appearances. For example, Mao Zedong I have never met any other southern Chinese that look like him.
    The large majority of inland Chinese actually appear mainly "northern", just not as paedomorphic/neotenic as Koreans and Japanese.


    Dwellers of northern China are "northern", southern coastal China "southern" and central Chinese intermediate.

    My point is more or so that with a thick eye fold, double eyelids can be much easily formed, and does not necessarily mean that all chinese are double eye-lids. But northeastern asian's morphology generally supports the single eyelid theory. Quality of double eyelids on Japanese and chinese are certainly different in these regards, if there is one speaking of on japanese at all.
    Right, it just that when I read gSOUTHERN HAN CHINESE: Eyes are generally placed flat to the facial surface with the double eyelids.h It looks like to me you are saying generally Southern Chinese have double eyelids . I don't think a lot of the Chinese have double eye lids.

    Lastly, why chinese people likes to state that they are the same people as japanese? Don't they have a pride? In terms of Morphology and genetics, many japanese are remote to han chinese people, and lumping all together is misleading, because some japanese looks caucasoid or polynesian than chinese. If more than 40% of that race is not looking chinese, then the claim of identity in east asia does not hold.
    I donft think Chinese like to state Japanese and Chinese are exactly the same people, but we do consider the fact that all three groups (Chinese Japanese Koreans) of people consist to the same varieties. The nearest being said is that "Japanese and Korean culture evolved from Chinese culture".

    If there are any Chinese who claimed that then the reply I would suggest is deep-seated Sino centric mentality as ancient China was the "dominant cultural focush for the domain for over 2000 years, there is a scrap of sinocentricism among some modern Chinese today.

    But for me it is my personal experiences that lead me to believe some of us do look similar. Every time I go to the Japanese restaurant they always greet me in Japanese, after about five to six or so times they remember that I am not one of their own then start to talk to me in English. The Japanese on the streets, the ones in tours I have been in also often have approached me and asked whether I am Japanese? So it is them who led me to make this conclusion it is not me who initiate this.

    Ancient HuaXia people of upper Yellow River Basin and Dong-Yi kins of China's Shandong Peninsula were the two descents of Han Chinese afterwards admitted Northern/Northeastern nomadic clans plus a few other Mongoloid ethnicities over a sweep of time evolved to what's modern day Han Chinese, which is more a cultural individuality than a monumental ethnicity because it's a genetically " Heinz 57 ".

    According to history, Koreans and Japanese migrated from Asia continent, but these two countries are mostly of northern nomadic stock plus a percentage of the population is of Han Chinese lineage.

    At least 50% Japanese population share classic Tungusic-Manchu looks with Koreans of Paekche/PUYO ancestry. There is commixture of Polynesian lineage within her people. Certain amount of Koreans and Japanese do appear kind of Northern and coastal region Han Chinese, some Koreans can delineate their kinfolks to Chinese inheritance to China' Shandong Peninsula.

    Only the native Japanese Ainu people appear Australoid or the maybe the mixed of Astroloid and Mongloid, I think and the remainder of Japanese appear closer to Mongoloid.

    Its true Japanese are genetically nearer to Koreans than the adulterate modern-day Han Chinese, majority of the Japanese gene pool descended from Korea's antique Southern realms expected to geographical propinquity.
    Koreans and Japanese are NE Asians rooted on their Mongoloid origins of north-eastern nomadic on the Asia continent.

    Er..., what's the difference? I suppose, there is a greater difference between a French Fleming & a Mediterranean Frenchman than between the Fleming & a Rhinelander.
    Both France & Germany have quite a mixed population, anyway.
    Yes I agree and I know about the certain amount of mixed population between Germans and French but I wonft say they are exactly the same.

    French ethnicity is mainly Celtic and Latin and Teutonic and their minority is with Slavic, North African Sub-Saharan African, Indochinese and Basques

    I think Germans are mostly Germanic people where as minority in Germany are Turks, Italian and Greeks.

    Facial features common to other known proto-caucasoids (either north american or Australian Aborigine)
    Huh? I thought Australian aboriginals are Astroloid and North American Indians are Mongloid.

  23. #98
    Seeing is believing Minty's Avatar
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    Geez I double posted by mistake.

    The picture I gave is a volunteer, he looks like quite a lot of the southern Chinese guys I know, but it does not mean southerners must look like this.

  24. #99
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    Hi Minty,
    thank you for the reply, I'll try to read and write back.

    Thank you very much for the cooperation. I'll try not ask his
    personal info other than his root, and lineage.

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    Let me first comment on the pic. I agree that his look can be southern han. But I can say his nose structure is closer to northern han. On the whole, face is han. Jaws are not as round or squared as northern asian. But it looks to me that his face, eyes placed flat to the surface, and his short -ended nosebridge, does not seem contradictory to my generalization.

    Evolutionary process of han chinese probably starts from south east asia, as found by genetic studies linking south east asian and northern han chinese, and some portions of Korean and japanese population. As the population from the south to north proceeded, we can see that the nose can be narrower, and eyes gain more fats to protect from the extreme cold on the north.

    By proto-caucasoid in North America, we sometimes refer to Kennewick man, but I simply use the result of studies linking Kennewick man with "some" Australian aborigines.

    Here is some anthoropoligical description of kennewick man. I have to warn you that they didn't filter based on morphology and genetics, so the conclusion derived from the article should not be trusted.

    http://www.harbornet.com/folks/theed...n/Kennewic.htm
    Homo sapiens first appeared less than 200,000 years ago, likewise in equatorial Africa. This earliest incarnation we might call Proto-Negroid. One part then moved to North Africa and the Middle East sometime in the period 100,000 to 70,000 B.P. For a long time this new "sapient" form, our ancestors, co-existed with Neanderthals, Homo erectus and perhaps yet other human sub-groups until finally, probably about 45,000 years ago, Homo sapiens alone developed the intellectual tool of language, which enabled him to out-compete and exterminate the other types. (Cf. Ian Tattersall's article in the January 2000, Volume 282, Number 1 edition of Scientific American, referred to in the table above.)

    With this first move northward, the first split also occurred: those that remained in equatorial Africa became the ancestors to modern African Negroes or Blacks; the emigrants, on the other hand, gave rise to the rest of humanity.

    One strand of the emigrants (still Proto-Negroid) kept to the southernmost portions of Asia and, migrating eastward, gave rise to the Proto-Negroid peoples of Australia and the Melanesian islands north and northeast of it, such as New Guinea, as well as to the subtropical populations of southeast Asia (~40,000 B.P.). Some of this same southern strand continued on even further: sailing up around the Pacific Rim (or perhaps directly eastwards), they eventually colonized South America, thereby becoming the first humans - the true "Native Americans" - in the western hemisphere. All of this happened before the appearance of the Mongoloid type (Amerinds) in the Americas. These early migrants did not spend very much time, if any, in the frigid vicinity of Ice-Age glaciers, and were not subjected to the fierce evolutionary pressures that awaited those who took a glacially slow route through the north. Thus these first South Americans changed little from the earliest Homo sapiens prototype and retained much of the Proto-Negroid nature of their ancestors.

    In contrast to this southern emigrant stream, the northernmost portions of the Middle Eastern remainder of the African emigrés spread out to the northwest, north and northeast, losing their dark skin pigmentation in proportion to their northward advance and becoming Proto-Caucasoid (~70,000-50,000). The groups farthest east took to boats and reached (~25,000-15,000 B.P.) Japan, Polynesia and, finally, North America, where they became the ancestors of Kennewick Man, Stick Man and many other pre-Indians. In north Eurasia in the late Ice-Age period of 40,000 to 20,000 years ago, this Proto-Caucasoid northern branch underwent considerable pressures of natural selection due to the intensely cold winters. Among other things, these pressures selected for increasingly higher intelligence and the larger brains required to support it. During this time and especially over the seven-thousand-year period from about 22,000 to 15,000 years ago, the cold-tolerant Proto-Mongoloid form gradually emerged in the barren, icy wastes north of Lake Baikal. Meanwhile the less severe conditions closer to the Mediterranean, Black and Caspian Seas allowed a more "leisurely" evolution. Thus from the Proto-Caucasoid base emerged the Caucasoids in the west and the Mongoloids in the mid-Siberian east, while the less-pressured, easternmost northerners, who formed the basis of the Jomon culture and the later Ainu, did not change very much at all during this period.

    So it came about that the Negroid peoples of Australia and Melanesia, together with the earliest inhabitants of South America, retained more of the traits of the earliest, Proto-Negroid forms of Homo sapiens, and are most closely related to African Negroes.

    In a parallel manner, the White peoples of Europe retain somewhat more of the traits of the early, northern group of humans (Proto-Caucasoids) before the emergence of the Mongoloid type in the east, than do the Mongoloids. This explains why the Kennewick Man, Stick Man and other pre-Amerind North American relatives (as well as the Ainu of Japan) give an initial impression of being Caucasoid, since Whites are generally closer to the pre-split (and pre-Mongoloid) northern prototype, than are the Orientals who have diverged more strongly from it. (On this, see also "RACE, EVOLUTION AND BEHAVIOR: A Life History Perspective," 2nd Special Abridged Edition, Professor J. Philippe Rushton, U. of Western Ontario.)

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