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Thread: What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

  1. #51
    ~空手者~ 梁铠赞's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaki
    It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.

    BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.

    A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ when he was in his search for the magical herb of immortality, sent thousands of people to the east for the "mushroom islands".
    But of course we know these thing doesnt exist, and since they couldnt find and going back to China would only mean death (for not finding it, is an offence to the emperor). So these people who travelled to the east, found the island of Japan and settled there.

    LOL ~ just re~read what i wrote and i sound like such a story-teller ^^;

    Also you can see with facial looks there are many similarities between the two.
    my history teacher taught me the same things...I believe it's not a belief....I think it's the truth....^^ any opinion??

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    Great subject. Here is an interesting link ...

    http://www.dai3gen.net/epage0.htm

    Seems there are many varying opinions on this subject, I would be curious to know what is actually taught in elementary schools regarding the origin of Japanese people... anyone know?

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    Quote Originally Posted by 梁铠赞
    I believe it's not a belief
    Hum...interesting argumentation...
    Let's say that's a myth, maybe the distorted reflect of part of the truth or not, and let's look for real evidence somewhere else.

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    Similarity between the Japanese language and the Fu-jian (southern China) dialect indicates that:

    Anthropologically speaking, the Japanese may have originated from the south of China and may have at a time been brought to what's called Japan today by sea winds.

    In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just something like the citystate wars within China.

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    Similarity between the Fu-jian (coastal south China) dialect and the Japanese language suggests that the Japanese people may have originated in China and then at one time carried to what's called Japan by sea winds.

    In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just like one of those citystate warfares within China.

    Hmmm... interesting, isn't it?

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tonysoong
    In this sense the Sino-Japanese war is just like one of those citystate warfares within China.

    Hmmm... interesting, isn't it?
    What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way.
    台湾共和国 Republic of Taiwan.
    Freedom for Taiwan.

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    @wang

    u are Taiwanese arent u? I believe u know the term 華人or華族...these 2 words refer to Chinese..but we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
    we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China...but we just claim that they(Japanese,Korean) are came from the same anchestor with the Chinese who originated from China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world...it's have nothing to do with occupying other countries...
    Last edited by 梁铠赞; May 7, 2005 at 20:04.

  8. #58
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Talking PC Consideration

    Quote Originally Posted by 梁铠赞
    I believe u know the term 華人 or 華族... we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
    I think I see what you mean; and I'm trying not to misread your freindly intentions. Nevertheless, I believe we live in a time when 'ethnicity' has become a hypersensitive issue to many people. This, in my opinion, is due to the regrettable colonial experience of the 1800's-1900's that literally obliterated so many indigenous countries, cultures, and languages all over the non-west European sphere.

    Please do not take my comment as a criticism of your explanation of 華人or 華族 nor of the customary use within China or Chinese speaking communities. But I for one would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from translating it as 'someone with a Chinese face.' I would much more appreciate the alternative translation 'Asian-looking.' Being called 'Chinese-looking' can be taken well; nevertheless it is still inaccurate ultimately.

    I'm just asking for just a little political correctness, or simple courtesy, as it can become an emotional thing for many, many Asian-looking people who happen not to be Chinese either by country or ethnicity.

    btw 'race' in 'yellow skinned race' or any 'race' should be avoided, I think, because it reminds us of WWII attrocities in a very, very disturbing way. I know you didn;t mean that though.
    Quote Originally Posted by 梁铠赞
    we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China.
    I'm quite relieved at your statement.
    Quote Originally Posted by 梁铠赞
    but we just claim that we (Chinese, Japanese, Korean) came from the same ancestor who stayed at China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world.
    There's just a little danger here. Just to give you an alternate theory, the lowlands of the latest glacial peaks were below the current sea level.

    Please check the shallow underwaters region in yellow-green where the majority of hunter-gatherer-fisher-farmers of the early neolithic period of East Asia are believed to have lived in. I'd say most Asians are descended from those lowland peoples, with a relatively small contribution from the highland peoples if I am allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction.

    Yet I too admit it makes popular myth and story telling fun and easy to understand for the children. No harm done as long as we don't take it literally.
    Quote Originally Posted by Wang
    What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way.
    Wang, while I understand your frustration at least on the superficial level, I somehow get the feeling that you are being paranoid about the Chinese legitimacy. Chill out, and you'll do just fine. Building up your resources and resourcefulness. Taiwan will have every right to exist and flourish as any other country. But contending with Mainland China for legitimacy would be asking for trouble it seems. Also picking on faults beyond what is acceptable as two equal countries in the international community is not cool. I don't know how to say it another way. Why can't you be diplomatic about your neighbor's faults ? You shouldn't try to use it to your advantage.
    Z: The fish in the water are happy.
    H: How do you know ? You're not fish.
    Z: How do you know I don't ? You're not me.
    H: True I am not you, and I cannot know. Likewise, I know you're not, therefore I know you don't.
    Z: You asked me how I knew implying you knew I knew. In fact I saw some fish, strolling down by the Hao River, all jolly and gay.

    --Zhuangzi

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    Quote Originally Posted by lexico
    I think I see what you mean; and I'm trying not to misread your freindly intentions. Nevertheless, I believe we live in a time when 'ethnicity' has become a hypersensitive issue to many people. This, in my opinion, is due to the regrettable colonial experience of the 1800's-1900's that literally obliterated so many indigenous countries, cultures, and languages all over the non-west European sphere.

    Please do not take my comment as a criticism of your explanation of 華人or 華族 nor of the customary use within China or Chinese speaking communities. But I for one would greatly appreciate if you would refrain from translating it as 'someone with a Chinese face.' I would much more appreciate the alternative translation 'Asian-looking.' Being called 'Chinese-looking' can be taken well; nevertheless it is still inaccurate ultimately.

    I'm just asking for just a little political correctness, or simple courtesy, as it can become an emotional thing for many, many Asian-looking people who happen not to be Chinese either by country or ethnicity.

    btw 'race' in 'yellow skinned race' or any 'race' should be avoided, I think, because it reminds us of WWII attrocities in a very, very disturbing way. I know you didn;t mean that though.I'm quite relieved at your statement.
    There's just a little danger here. Just to give you an alternate theory, the lowlands of the latest glacial peaks were below the current sea level.

    Please check the shallow underwaters region in yellow-green where the majority of hunter-gatherer-fisher-farmers of the early neolithic period of East Asia are believed to have lived in. I'd say most Asians are descended from those lowland peoples, with a relatively small contribution from the highland peoples if I am allowed to make such an arbitrary distinction.

    Yet I too admit it makes popular myth and story telling fun and easy to understand for the children. No harm done as long as we don't take it literally.
    Wang, while I understand your frustration at least on the superficial level, I somehow get the feeling that you are being paranoid about the Chinese legitimacy. Chill out, and you'll do just fine. Building up your resources and resourcefulness. Taiwan will have every right to exist and flourish as any other country. But contending with Mainland China for legitimacy would be asking for trouble it seems. Also picking on faults beyond what is acceptable as two equal countries in the international community is not cool. I don't know how to say it another way. Why can't you be diplomatic about your neighbor's faults ? You shouldn't try to use it to your advantage.
    I want to say thank for reminding me this things...haha english is not my mother tounge...and I rarely speak english
    you have corrected my mistake well hehe...^^

    I want to correct my words about all chinese-lookin people originated from China...but I am quiet sure that we came from same anchestor...wat do you think lexico??

  10. #60
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wang
    What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way.
    I've looked through many other japan-related web sites. Almost of all of them are dedicated to the same topic. But they say that chinese are from the south east or south west asia.

    It seems that this web site is run by chinese, as I never see japanese themselves interested in this topic, or at least in expressing or propaganding their position.

    Cheers.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by 梁铠赞
    @wang

    u are Taiwanese arent u? I believe u know the term 華人or華族...these 2 words refer to Chinese..but we often use it to other yellow skin race with chinese face....
    we do not claim that Japanese or Korean is belongs to China...but we just claim that they(Japanese,Korean) are came from the same anchestor with the Chinese who originated from China long long time ago and then travel to all over the world...it's have nothing to do with occupying other countries...
    I said I saw some post from other forums, so this is just a copy and paste . In general, it looks to me that about half of japanese (or if I would be bold, around 60% of total japanese population)are somehow related to modern chinese and korean, but the rest seems to have a blood of Jomon/Ainu.

    ------------------------
    Y chromosomal DNA variation in east Asian populations and its potential for inferring the peopling of Korea.

    Kim W, Shin DJ, Harihara S, Kim YJ.

    Department of Biology, Dankook University, Cheonan, Choong-Nam, Republic of Korea. [email protected]

    We have examined variations of five polymorphic loci (DYS287, DXYS5Y, SRY465, DYS19, and DXYS156Y) on the Y chromosome in samples from a total of 1260 males in eight ethnic groups of East Asia. We found four unique haplotypes constructed from three biallelic markers in these samples of East Asians. The Japanese population was characterized by a relatively high frequency of either the haplotype I-2b (-/Y2/T) or II-1 (+/Y1/C). These dual patterns of the distribution of Y chromosomes (I-2b/II-1) were also found in Korea, although they were present at relatively low frequencies. The haplotype II-1 was present in Northeast Asian populations (Chinese, Japanese, Koreans, and Mongolians) only, except for one male from the Thai population among the Southeast Asian populations (Indonesians, Philippines, Thais, and Vietnamese). The Japanese were revealed to have the highest frequency of this haplotype (27.5%), followed by Koreans (2.9%), Mongolians (2.6%), and mainland Chinese (2.2%). In contrast, the frequency of the haplotype I-2b was found to be 17.1% in the Japanese, 9.5% in Indonesian, 6.3% in Korean, 3.8% in Vietnamese, and 2.7% in Thai samples. These findings suggested that the chromosomes of haplotype I-2b were likely derived from certain areas of Northeast Asia, the region closest to Southeast Asia. Phylogenetic analysis using the neighbor-joining tree also reflected a general distinction between Southeast and Northeast Asian populations. The phylogeny revealed a closer genetic relationship between Japanese and Koreans than to the other surveyed Asian populations. Based on the result of the dual patterns of the haplotype distribution, it is more likely that the population structure of Koreans may not have evolved from a single ancient population derived from Northeast Asians, but through dual infusions of Y chromosomes entering Korea from two different waves of East Asians.

    PMID: 10721667 [PubMed - indexed for MEDLINE]


    Fig. 2 Distribution of Y haplogroups in east Asia. Circle area is proportional to sample size, and the nine haplogroups are represented by different colors

    The distribution of Y-chromosomal variation surveyed here reveals significant genetic differences among east Asian populations. Haplogroup DE-YAP (the YAP+ allele) was present at high frequency only in the Japanese and was rare in other parts of east Asia (Table 2, Fig. 2). This result is consistent with previous findings of YAP+ chromosomes only in populations from Japan and Tibet in east Asia (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Kim et al. 2000; Tajima at al. 2002). However, haplogroup DE-YAP is also found at low frequencies in all the other northeast Asian populations sampled here (2.4% overall, excluding the Japanese; 9.6%, including the Japanese), but only in two of the southern populations (0.8% overall), suggesting that the Korean YAP+ chromosomes are unlikely to have been derived from a southeast Asian source. The prevalence of the YAP+ allele in central Asian populations suggests a genetic contribution to the east Asian populations from the northwest, probably from central Asia (Altheide and Hammer 1997; Jin and Su 2000; Karafet et al. 2001).

    Haplogroups C-RPS4Y711 and K-M9 were widely but not evenly distributed in the east Asian populations. Haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 appears to be the predominant northeast Asian haplogroup, with high frequencies in Mongolians (Buryats, 37.3%; Khalkhs, 42.9%) and Manchurians (22.7%; Table 2, Fig. 2). The moderate frequency of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 Y-chromosomes in Korea (15.0%) implies a genetic influence from northern populations of east Asia, starting possibly in east Siberia. Su and Jin (2001) suggest that the RPS4Y711-T chromosome originated in east Asia, probably in the southeast, and then expanded to the north (Siberia), based on the genetic diversity of Y-STR markers. However, the observed low Y-STR diversity of haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 chromosomes in their surveys of Siberian and central Asian populations compared with east Asian populations could also be explained by a more northern (Mongolian and/or Siberian) origin followed by genetic drift resulting from small effective population sizes (Pakendorf et al. 2002). Recently, Cavalli-Sforza and Feldman (2003) have suggested that haplogroup C-RPS4Y711 expanded both through a southern route from Africa (e.g., India) to Oceania, and a northern one to Mongolia, Siberia, and eventually to northwest America. Further genetic surveys are required to test these hypotheses, with additional markers and more samples from diverse regions of Asia.
    In contrast, M9-G Y-chromosomes show an opposing distribution to those carrying RPS4Y711-T in east Asia: they are more frequent in southern populations than in northern ones, showing a clinal variation from about 90% to 60% (Table 1). The haplogroups carrying the M9-G mutation and additional sublineages of M9-G in Korea appear to be at an intermediate frequency (81.9%) between southeast and northeast Asian populations. This result implies that the Korean population may be influenced by both the northeast and southeast Asian populations. Even within haplogroup O, the most frequent Korean STR haplotype (23-10-13 with the markers DYS390-DYS391-DYS393, 19% of haplogroup O; Table 3) is the most frequent in the Philippines (27%), whereas the second most frequent Korean haplotype (24-10-12, 16%) is the most frequent in Manchuria (45%). Thus, the distribution of haplogroups K-M9 and C-RPS4Y711 may reflect dispersals from both north and south. The settlement of each region at different times needs to be considered in order to understand the peopling of east Asia. Recently, Karafet et al. (2001) have noted that realistic explanations for the peopling of east Asia have to accommodate more complex multidirectional biological and cultural influences than earlier models have allowed.


    Fig. 3 Principal components (PC) analysis of haplogroup frequencies in 11 east Asian populations (circle Koreans, open diamonds southeast populations, closed diamonds northeast populations)


    In this study, the Koreans appear to be most closely related overall to the Manchurians among east Asian ethnic groups (Fig. 2), although a principal components analysis of haplogroup frequencies reveals that they also cluster with populations from Yunnan and Vietnam (Fig. 3). The genetic relationship with Manchuria is consistent with the historical evidence that the Ancient Chosun, the first state-level society, was established in the region of southern Manchuria and later moved into the Pyongyang area of the northwestern Korean Peninsula. Based on archeological and anthropological data, the early Korean population possibly had a common origin in the northern regions of the Altai Mountains and Lake Baikal of southeastern Siberia (Han 1995; Choi and Rhee 2001). Recent studies of mtDNA (Kivisild et al. 2002) and the Y-chromosome (Karafet et al. 2001) have also indicated that Koreans possess lineages from both the southern and the northern haplogroup complex. In conclusion, the peopling of Korea can be seen as a complex process with an initial northern Asian settlement followed by several migrations, mostly from southern-to-northern China.

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    This one I saw over and over again and posted on numerous other japan related sites.

    ------------------------
    http://www.journals.uchicago.edu/AJH.../42338/42338.h tml
    Y-Chromosome Evidence of Southern Origin of the East AsianSpecific Haplogroup O3-M122

    Hong Shi,1,2,6 Yong-li Dong,3 Bo Wen,4 Chun-Jie Xiao,3 Peter A. Underhill,5 Pei-dong Shen,5 Ranajit Chakraborty,7 Li Jin,4,7 and Bing Su1,2,7

    1Key Laboratory of Cellular and Molecular Evolution, Kunming Institute of Zoology and 2Kunming Primate Research Center, Chinese Academy of Sciences, 3Key Laboratory of Bio-resources Conservation and Utilization and Human Genetics Center, Yunnan University, Kunming, China; 4State Key Laboratory of Genetic Engineering and Center for Anthropological Studies, School of Life Sciences, Fudan University, Shanghai; 5Department of Genetics, Stanford University, Stanford, CA; 6Graduate School of Chinese Academy of Science, Beijing; and 7Center for Genome Information, University of Cincinnati, Cincinnati

    Received March 14, 2005; accepted for publication June 29, 2005; electronically published July 14, 2005.

    The prehistoric peopling of East Asia by modern humans remains controversial with respect to early population migrations. Here, we present a systematic sampling and genetic screening of an East Asianspecific Y-chromosome haplogroup (O3-M122) in 2,332 individuals from diverse East Asian populations. Our results indicate that the O3-M122 lineage is dominant in East Asian populations, with an average frequency of 44.3%. The microsatellite data show that the O3-M122 haplotypes in southern East Asia are more diverse than those in northern East Asia, suggesting a southern origin of the O3-M122 mutation. It was estimated that the early northward migration of the O3-M122 lineages in East Asia occurred 25,00030,000 years ago, consistent with the fossil records of modern humans in East Asia.

    It should be noted that when we discuss the origin and migration of human populations, a time periodwhich part of the human-population history is under scrutinyshould be clearly defined. Recent population movement and admixture could wipe out or significantly diminish the original genetic signatures of early population movements. Therefore, to extract information for modern human origin and early population movements that happened before the Neolithic period, population-specific markers, such as SNP markers on the Y chromosome, become useful for the study of regional population movements (Jobling and Tyler-Smith 2003). At the same time, recent gene flow between distantly related populations can also be identified and removed in an analysis based on population specificity. Hence, in this sense, extreme caution should be exercised in selection of genetic markers in the study of the origin and early migrations of a continental population, because genetic variations introduced through recent gene flow could create false interpretations, as in two previous studies (Ding et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001). The same logic also applies to the selection of populations; ethnic populations with long histories of inhabitation in a region are always preferred for inferring early population histories.

    In East Asian populations, there are three regionally distributed (East Asianspecific) Y-chromosome haplogroups under the M175 lineage (fig. 1)O3-M122, O2-M95, and O1-M119together accounting for 57% of the Y chromosomes in East Asian populations (table 1). The O3-M122 has the highest frequency (41.8% on average) (fig. 2) in East Asians, especially in Han Chinese (52.06% in northern Han and 53.72% in southern Han) (table 1), and it is absent outside East Asia. Previous studies have shown that O2-M95 and O1-M119 are prevalent in SEAS and probably originated in the south (Su et al. 1999, 2000a; Wen et al. 2004a, 2004b) (table 1). Therefore, tracing the origin of O3-M122 became critical for a full understanding of the origin and early migrations of modern East Asians.



    The frequency distribution of the O3-M122 haplotypes in East Asian and other continental populations. The data used were from published studies (Su et al. 1999, 2000a, 2000b; Qian et al. 2000; Semino et al. 2000; Underhill et al. 2000; Karafet et al. 2001; Lell et al. 2002; Jin et al. 2003; Wen et al. 2004a)

  13. #63
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    Question Possible Explaination?

    Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group. Europe's population is thought to have originated from groups of nomadic tribes that roam from the Central Asian Steppes, and the Balkans.

    I know that when kanji, and katakana are used, they are a altered form of Chinese scripts. These I know developed into the characters today during Japans years in the centuries prior to the spread of Western Europes colonialization of the Indonesian archipleago and then Britains colonial holding of India, etc. These characters are faintlyu similar to their chinese counterparts.

    Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.

    The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.

    Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia. That when the ancestors of the modern chinese started settling the Yangtze river valley and other river valleys, they each started to develop dialects that today have lead to the creation of Korean, Japanese, Chinese and other spoken languages in Southeast Asia.
    “To every man there comes a time in his lifetime that special moment when he is figuratively tapped on the shoulder and offered the chance to do a very special thing unique to him and fitted to his talent; what a tragedy if that moment finds him unprepared or unqualified for the work which would be his finest hour.”

    Sir Winston Churchill

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
    Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group.
    That's no question. All human populations share the same root. All mongoloid populations share another root, somewhat closer to modern times. The problem is to point out the last common pre-Japanese ancestral population (& who it is shared with).

    Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.
    Polish is slavic, actually.

    The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.
    Modern languages are most often similar yet different from their ancient predecessors. I don't really understand what you mean by "based on regional dialects or archaic tongues".

    Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia.
    Doubtful. That there is a common root is obvious, but that this root still exists is improbable, since languages evolve over time (if they don't evolve, they're dead).

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    Custom Graphix Artist Martialartsnovice's Avatar
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    Thanks for the info

    Question: What languages officially are recognized as dead or outdated, how are people today able to learn them. I know Latin has played a part in the formation of modern Spanish, Italian, French. Ancient Greek evolved into the modern greek spoken today.

    IS it possible though to piece together a shall we say a Asian Latin or Greek that could be like the Rosetta stone in translating ancient Egyptian.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
    Question: What languages officially are recognized as dead or outdated, how are people today able to learn them. I know Latin has played a part in the formation of modern Spanish, Italian, French. Ancient Greek evolved into the modern greek spoken today.

    IS it possible though to piece together a shall we say a Asian Latin or Greek that could be like the Rosetta stone in translating ancient Egyptian.
    Dead languages are usually defined as having no native speakers anymore. There is some ambiguity, though: Eg. Latin as such is dead, but has never died. As you said, it evolved into several other languages. & what we now learn as Latin, is only a snapshot of that language at a certain time/era.

    As we are not sure about every detail of Latin pronunciation, we know even less about ancient Egyptian. We know the consonants from their hieroglyphs, but almost no vowls.

    Latin & Egyptian are fairly easy to reconstruct in comparison to other "dead" languages which don't have a written record, but reconstruction is possible even for a language like Proto-Indo-European. What we then have is no more than an educated guess, though. The same should be possible for Japanese. But I don't know how reliable the guess-work for proto-Japanese is.

    I just googled for proto-Japanese & found some 800 results. I suppose, you should do the same & judge for yourself whether you find the proposed ideas convincing.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Martialartsnovice
    Could it be, that as mentioned earlier that the modern japanese. korean, and maybe the rest of Southeastern Asia ethnic groups, share a common genetic ancestral group. Europe's population is thought to have originated from groups of nomadic tribes that roam from the Central Asian Steppes, and the Balkans.

    I know that when kanji, and katakana are used, they are a altered form of Chinese scripts. These I know developed into the characters today during Japans years in the centuries prior to the spread of Western Europes colonialization of the Indonesian archipleago and then Britains colonial holding of India, etc. These characters are faintlyu similar to their chinese counterparts.

    Also I know that when people speak of Europes native languages, they can be divided into a few groups: Latin Based such as Italian, French, Spainish, Portugeuse. Germanic-based: German, Dutch, English, and Polish.

    The eastern European languages are more based on regional dialects or archaic tongues. Modern Greek is similar yet different from the ancient Greek dialects.

    Could it be, that the dialect of the Fu-Jian district in Southern China, is akin to a archaic root language once spoken in most of Asia. That when the ancestors of the modern chinese started settling the Yangtze river valley and other river valleys, they each started to develop dialects that today have lead to the creation of Korean, Japanese, Chinese and other spoken languages in Southeast Asia.
    Ethnically, japanese are quiet distinct according to the genetics study.



    Fig. 2. Frequency distributions of the eight Y-chromosome haplotypes for the 14 global populations, with their approximate geographic locations. The frequencies of the eight haplotypes are shown as colored pie charts (for color codes, see upper left insert). JP =Japanese. Han=Chinese

    Only four Japanese populations exhibited ht1 (defined only by YAP+) at various frequencies (also see Table 1). The highest frequency (87.5%) was found in JP-Ainu, followed by JP-Okinawa (55.6%) living in the southwestern islands of Japan, JP-Honshu (36.6%), and JP-Kyushu (27.9%). The ht2 haplotype (defined by YAP+/M15+) was found in only two males, one each from Thais and Thai-Khmers; ht3 (defined by YAP+/SRY4064-A) was completely absent in the Asian populations examined, whereas Jewish in the Uzbekistan and African populations had this haplotype with a frequency of 28.3% and 100%, respectively. Thus, the YAP+ lineage was found in restricted populations among Asian populations, consistent with previous reports (Hammer and Horai 1995; Hammer et al. 1997; Shinka et al. 1999).

    The ht4 haplotype (defined only by M9-G) was widely distributed among north, east, and southeast Asian populations, except for the Ainu. This haplotype was frequent (60.5%) in overall Asian populations (Table 1). Among them, the Han Chinese and southeast Asian populations were characterized by high frequencies ranging from 81.0% to 96.0%. In contrast to ht4, ht5 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A) and ht6 (defined by M9-G/DYS257108-A/SRY10831-A) were small contributors to Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht5 was observed in Nivkhi (19.0%) and that of the ht6 in Thai-Khmers (10.8%). The ht5 haplotype is widely distributed among European, Asian, and Native American populations and is proposed to be one of the candidates for founder haplotypes in the Americas (Karafet et al. 1999). Furthermore, high frequencies of ht6 were observed in north Europe, central Asia, and India (Karafet et al. 1999). Thus, the presence of ht5 in Nivkhi may account for the founder effect of peopling of the Americas.

    The ht7 haplotype (defined by RPS4Y-T) was also widely distributed throughout Asia with the exceptions of Malaysia and the Philippines, whereas this was absent in two non-Asian populations. The highest frequency of ht7 was found in Buryats (83.6%), followed by Nivkhi (38.1%). Thus, the geographic distribution of ht7 in Asia appears to contrast with that of ht4.

    Only eight individuals (1.4%) in Asia belonged to ht8, which was the major haplotype in Jewish population (Table 1). The ht8 haplotype may not be useful for inferring population relatedness among Asian populations because it is defined by no mutations. Additional Y-polymorphic markers such as M89 and M168 (Underhill et al. 2000; Ke et al. 2001) will be needed to investigate details of the formation of modern Asian populations.

  18. #68
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    Thumbs up Take into the count also this

    You were discussing about European roots of Japanese. And also mentioned the horserider ancestry. You mentioned most of the European nations as possible relation to the ancient Aynu people. However you've forgotten one. The Hungarians.

    No, I do not want to say that Hungarians are relatives to the Japanese. If you go into Hungary you see only few faces with Asian motives. During the Hungarian's history in Europe, which is officially dating back to 896 AD, the Hungarian population was quite totally diversified with the around living nations. So, it is now hard to distinguish of the other nations in Central Europe.

    If you search after Hungarian ancient history, most of the websites and the "official books" will claim that Hungarian people are belonging to Ugro-Finnic people, due to their language.

    However the ancient Hungarian myths and legends, and ancient scriptures about Hungarian's origin tell a different story and only partially tolerate any Ugro-finnic relation. During the Communism the publications about this issue were banned, and all the autors and scientists who researched this field were proclaimed as dilettant and fantasying.

    Yes. Some of the theories are really ridiculous. However if you deepen yourself into the ancient Hungarians history, and read lots of publications fianlly you can reach a conclusion that Hungarian people surely had relations to the Turkic people at least to the Hun (Xiong nu) people. I do not even mention the large amount of turkish words in the hungarian language, which one are officially proclaimed only as "borrowed" or "argued about it's origin."

    You have lead this topic to very scientific level with these genetic proving. I do not understand much genetics, but eeven though I've read about that Japanese professor, Hideo Matsumoto (maybe I write it wrongly), that one tried to make the genetic map of the world.

    He has also taken some samples (thousands) from Hungary in the 80's ? and finally has reached such a conclusion that in the largest amount of the Asian character in Europe has occured in the Carpathian Basin which one can be considered as real hystorical Hungary.

    Another thing. If a Hungarian explorer or scientist is arriving to Central Asia or East Asia, and reveals his identity the original inhabitants of that region greet the and treat them more hospitally and warmly than the other Europeans.

    Why? I've read not only once that in those peoples memory and legends-stories is existing a nation, which one once lived with them. Probably were even relatives to each other. But that nation in their memories took itself up and moved towards the far-far west and became part of Europe.

    Whose are those people? The Turkish the Ukrainans, Lattvian?
    Not really...

    エガミ ナミオ;EGAMI Namio;江上 波夫(著)


    「匈奴・フン同族論」
    #The Hypothesis concerning the Ethnic equality between the Xiongnu and the Huns.
    『民族研究所紀要』 1. 東京:民族研究所 1944/8/15. pp.71-117(+5).
    歴史考古:前近代 北アジア一般


    アンザイ カズオ;ANZAI Kazuo;安斉 和雄(訳);アンビス,ルイ;HAMBIS, Louis(著)


    『アッチラとフン族』
    Attila et Huns.
    (文庫クセジュ 536) 東京:白水社 1973. 162p.
    歴史考古:前近代 中央アジア一般

    シゲマツ シュンショウ;SHIGEMATSU Shunsho^;重松 俊章(著)


    「エフタルの西遷に就いて(1)-(2)」
    The Western Migration of the Hephthalites.
    『歴史地理』 28:3,5. 東京:日本歴史地理研究会 1916/9/1,11/1. pp.43-46,139-153.
    歴史考古:前近代 西トルキスタン


    トクナガ ヤスモト;TOKUNAGA Yasumoto;徳永 康元(著)


    「ハンガリーにおける近年のフン研究について」
    Research on the Huns in Hungary.
    『民族学研究』 14:3. 東京:日本民族学協会 1950/2/15. p.84.
    総記:学界動向 コーカサス・タタール



    I cannot read Japanese. But probably there are some answers in those books.

    But if those contradict against what I think, what about the recent studies in China-Turkestan about the similarity between Uyghur and Hungarian music? Motives of art? Similar stories?

    I still do not know enough about it. I know that I know very little. But I decided to write this forum, even though it's about the origin of Japanese.

  19. #69
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    Lightbulb Upgrade

    By the time I found sg. interresting. I was overwhelmed! But I do not take this as "Holy Word"

    http://www.blackwell-synergy.com/doi...2000.6420145.x

  20. #70
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    I've heard that the japanese were mixed between Chinese, Russian, and Mongolian. I don't know.
    I wish I knew that I didn't know what I know. You know?

    Behind every great man is a woman rolling her eyes.

  21. #71
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    Origin Of Japanese People

    Is their consensus on the answer. Their is too much disagreement to figure this out !
    NewYorkCity/WashingtonDC/Bonn/London/Tokyo, the rest is mullet wrap

  22. #72
    Seeing is believing Minty's Avatar
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    According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
    Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
    (Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
    Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
    Tamil in India are mixed.
    The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
    DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.
    I got these informations from some books.
    Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
    Interesting!
    Well that the ear wax theories can’t be right. In my family my mother my brother and myself have wet ear waxes, while my father, my other brother and my sister have dry ear waxes. There is no record whatsoever in our family tree that we have been mixed with Japanese or Native Americans. We are 100 percent Han.

    for the ear wax idea, it is a physicla change to suit the enviroment of the persons surroundings
    Most of our families members have lived together and some still live together for a long period of time, but the ear waxes differs among my family. After we migrated to other country/ies, our two different kinds of ear waxes among my family remained the same since birth.

  23. #73
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaki
    It's most likely that Japanese are of a Chinese origin.
    BUT i think that along the way they have mixed with other groups, creating the Japanese race we have today.
    A belief is that during the reign of the first emperor of China Qin Shi HuangDi ~ .
    Here I listed two useful websites, you may want to have a look:

    http://www.omniglot.com/writing/japanese.htm
    http://users.tmok.com/~tumble/jpp/japor.html

    Actually I noticed that the Japanese traditions and costumes have a lot of similarities with Chinese Han Dynasty (e.g. tatami, low table) and Tang Dynasty Period.

  24. #74
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wang
    What will be the next country that Chinese claim belongs to China in some way.
    I just did an essay on "identity politics". What's your definition of claim? On Taiwan issues, the chairman of Taiwan National party just gave a speech in my Uni and I quite agree with his opinion: let's just remain current status, and when democracy from both reach an equilibrium level, unification is possible. The whole world is becoming smaller and smaller and I really like this word "Earth Village". Peopel need to learn to avoid extreme self-identification.We are not the most powerful being and there's no ownership to land or river. Where are these people who once created a brilliant page of their own nation? Ashes to ashes.....

  25. #75
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    How loud voice was from PRC embassy or government for his visit?
    Taiwanese officials' visit has been still sensitive matter here.

    By the way, this is what Jiang Zemin addressed his speech at my uni in 1998.
    中国は世界最大の発展途上国で り、いまなお社会主義 の初級段階に ります。
    PRC is the largest developping country in the world, and still the first stage of socialism.
    Hope that the stage advances to 1.01 beta or something now.

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