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Thread: What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

  1. #301
    Swedish town of trolls Trollhattan's Avatar
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    S Koreans take the " crown " for history fabrication ...

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dIhoBy6a0BY

  2. #302
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhattan View Post
    S Koreans take the " crown " for history fabrication ...
    youtube.com/watch?v=dIhoBy6a0BY
    You see what I mean? This is why I cant take the Japanese side seriously. They do not even bother debating properly. Whenever they lose, they throw a fit. Its so typical of them. What is the point of bringing up doctored youtube videos that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand?

    PS Trollhattan, that video was taken way way out of context. The show did not support any of the claims mentioned within that video. The entire premise of that show was to summarize a whacky book/theory and then to discredit the theory.

    The guy who uploaded that video intentionally deleted the portion of the video that discredits the theory. Let me repeat again. The show did not support the ideas claimed in that video. The Japanese guy who uploaded that video intentionally deleted the portion of the show that discredits the entire theory.

    None of this is taught in Korean schools, are in Korean textbooks or taken seriously by the vast majority of Korean historians. You want to talk about historical fraud? Why dont we look to Japan then.

    Japan- largest historical and archaeological fraud in recent memory.
    ================
    wikipedia.org/wiki/Shinichi_Fujimura

    t-net.ne.jp/~keally/Hoax/how.html

    archaeology.org/0101/newsbriefs/godshands.html

    museumofhoaxes.com/hoax/archive/permalink/the_stone_age_discoveries_of_shinichi_fujimura/
    ================
    This fraud was going on for years and was taught in Japanese schools. Published within Japanese textbooks. Children graduated from school after being taught, tested and believing this lie.

    Ultimately it was discovered for the fraud that it was. A huge embarrassment for Japanese archaeology and history. They had to overhaul Japanese textbooks and change the curriculum. Someone committed suicide because of it and the rest of the world stood and watch in amazement.

    It was THAT bad.

  3. #303
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    You see what I mean? This is why I cant take the Japanese side seriously. They do not even bother debating properly. Whenever they lose, they throw a fit. Its so typical of them. What is the point of bringing up doctored youtube videos that have nothing to do with the discussion at hand?
    ask the chinese who can read chinese characters

  4. #304
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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post
    ask the chinese who can read chinese characters
    If thats all you have left to say in support of your right wing supremacist argument, then I guess this debate is pretty much over. You've lost.

    ‘ĺ= large or big. Read my last comment on the subject(which you've either ignored or could not refute).

    (add www and . at the beginning)
    wa-pedia.com/forum/showpost.php?p=651652&postcount=296

    Give it up. Your wasting your own time if you still believe your magical view of history is taken seriously by anyone other than radical fringe groups. No historian, not even Japanese historians believe in or support what you are proposing.

  5. #305
    TAN Hiroyuki Nagashima's Avatar
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    "ŠżˆĎ“z‘‰¤ˆó"


  6. #306
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroyuki Nagashima View Post
    "ŠżˆĎ“z‘‰¤ˆó"
    geocities.jp/ikoh12/honnronn3/003_07/kinninn2.jpg
    Why are you showing me this? Its an imperial seal of China that was used by a Japanese king who submitted to the Chinese emperor.
    I dont know how to read the hiragana/katakana that is on the right.

  7. #307
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    I don't now if this idiot above is Korean or not. I wish mod gave him a warning, he shows trollish signs no different than that of a qinese who claims Koreans and Japanese came from qina. How would you feel if a qinese called you a qinese?

  8. #308
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adulado View Post
    I don't now if this idiot above is Korean or not. I wish mod gave him a warning
    If anyone deserves a warning, it would be you. Hypocrite.

    he shows trollish signs no different than that of a qinese who claims Koreans and Japanese came from qina. How would you feel if a qinese called you a qinese?
    Not once have I claimed Japan or Japanese people were Korean. I could care less about the origins of Japanese people. In fact I have yet to even comment on that subject.

    If you actually bothered to read what ive written, you would realize how off base your comments are. As I said earlier, I have yet to even comment on the origins of Japanese people or make even the slightest claim that Japan originated from Korea, France or the planet Uranus. I simply dont care. My argument with caster and that troll was over an entirely different matter that had nothing to do with Japan's origins and genepool.

    If you have no idea what is going on, then dont bother commenting at all. It only makes you look foolish.

  9. #309
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    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMordon View Post
    If anyone deserves a warning, it would be you. Hypocrite.
    Not once have I claimed Japan or Japanese people were Korean. I could care less about the origins of Japanese people. In fact I have yet to even comment on that subject.
    If you actually bothered to read what ive written, you would realize how off base your comments are. As I said earlier, I have yet to even comment on the origins of Japanese people or make even the slightest claim that Japan originated from Korea, France or the planet Uranus. I simply dont care. My argument with caster and that troll was over an entirely different matter that had nothing to do with Japan's origins and genepool.
    If you have no idea what is going on, then dont bother commenting at all. It only makes you look foolish.
    Your obsession talks 1000 words already. If you don't want insist you're an idiot shut up already, don't make Koreans look bad.

  10. #310
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adulado View Post
    Your obsession talks 1000 words already. If you don't want insist you're an idiot shut up already, don't make Koreans look bad.
    Obsession of what? You didn't even know what this entire debate was about in the first place. What gives you the right to make such a comment? I suggest you go back to that little hole where you came from.

  11. #311
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    That coming from you I'll take it as if you're an idiot as we all know there's no remedy for idiots, i'm out.

  12. #312
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    Quote Originally Posted by Adulado View Post
    That coming from you I'll take it as if you're an idiot as we all know there's no remedy for idiots, i'm out.
    Dont let the door hit you on your way out.

  13. #313
    TAN Hiroyuki Nagashima's Avatar
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    The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    Remains prove the history.
    The gold seal was given the Japanese king in 57 in the Christian era by the Chinese emperor.
    This proves that a Japanese traded with China in those days, and it proves the existence of the country.


    1. No iron weapons.
    2. No sophisticated armor.
    3. No horses
    4. No cavalry
    5. No chariots
    6. Smaller population
    7. No organized government structure
    8. primitive tech level
    1. Inariyama Sword : It was discovered from an old burial mound of Saitama.
    It was written as dedication for 471 years.
    2. The armor was excavated from the old burial mound, too.
    We can watch them at the Tokyo National Museum and other many local museums.
    3.4. A horse was imported into Japan in Burial Mound age.
      The model of harness and the horse is excavated from the old burial mound
    5. chariots does not seem to have been suitable for the Japanese topography.
    6.From a number and the size of the old burial mound, I can suppose that Japan had more population   than Korea.
     Japan has more population now than Korea.
    7.The group of the scale to receive the recognition as the country from a foreign country existed.
      The gold seal proves it.
    8. I was not inferior in all fields.
      There was it in a basal level.
      Existing Japanese cultural heritage proves it.

  14. #314
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    Quote Originally Posted by Hiroyuki Nagashima View Post
    The proof of the pudding is in the eating.
    Remains prove the history.
    The gold seal was given the Japanese king in 57 in the Christian era by the Chinese emperor.
    This proves that a Japanese traded with China in those days, and it proves the existence of the country.
    Japan wasn't a unified country. There was no "Japanese" country during that time period. Japan was a landmass inhabited by the people of Wa who were split into dozens of communities each with different kings/tribal leaders. No different from America before the arrival of Columbus.

    These communities would wage war against each other for centuries and would not unite into a true singular country(Japan) as we know it until 1500 years later. During Hideyoshis time. Here are some Chinese records of the time period as evidence

    ====Chinese records on Japan's status during that time period==========
    Book of Han(Chinese historical text)
    Beyond Lo-lang in the sea, there are the people of Wo. They comprise more than one hundred communities.

    Book of Wei(Chinese historical text)
    The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities.

    Book of Wei(again)
    Over one thousand li to the east of the Queen's land, there are more countries of the same race as the people of Wa.

    Book of Later Eastern Han
    The Wa dwell on mountainous islands southeast of Han [Korea] in the middle of the ocean, forming more than one hundred communities

    Book of Sui
    During the Wei dynasty, over thirty countries [of Wa-kuo], each of which boasted a king, held intercourse with China.

    Hou Han Shu
    Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary.
    =======

    Its true that Japanese communities of the past maintained relationships with the Han dynasty of China. And this is actually well known. I even mentioned it 2 pages ago. However, it still favors my argument either way. This does not signify Japan the country as trading with China or Korea. It signifies one of the more than 100 communities trading with mainlanders.

    Chinese record(history of Wei)
    The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities. During the Han dynasty, [Wa envoys] appeared at the Court; today, thirty of their communities maintain intercourse [with us] through envoys and scribes.

    As you can see, it wasn't Japan that maintained relations with China. It was the tiny fractured communities of Wa people.

    1. Inariyama Sword : It was discovered from an old burial mound of Saitama.
    It was written as dedication for 471 years.
    Only one problem though, Gwangetto ruled during 374-413 AD. Over a century before Japan's earliest sword. By that time period, all three Korean kingdoms had complicated iron weaponry, cavalry and armor. Japan didnt. You can see why its very unlikely that Japan- a fractured country of over 100 warring tribes without organized government, iron weapons and armor was somehow able to cross the sea in large numbers and defeat the technologically and numerically superior Korean kingdoms of Shilla and Paekche.

    The Inariyama Sword was a special made gift for one of the Wa kings of the island. It was tailored made for him. This in no way signifies that the vast majority of Japanese people during that time period used iron weapons as was the case on the mainland. Japan would not truly reach the iron age until much later. And they would only use iron weapons in combat much later as well.

    One more thing, the sword is in such poor condition that its date is difficult to establish. The swords age ranges from 471 AD to 521.

    2. The armor was excavated from the old burial mound, too.
    We can watch them at the Tokyo National Museum and other many local museums.
    Whats your definition of sophisticated armor?

    Because all complicated plate and metal armor during that time period were of Korean design(Kaya, Baekje etc).

    3.4. A horse was imported into Japan in Burial Mound age.
    @@The model of harness and the horse is excavated from the old burial mound
    5. chariots does not seem to have been suitable for the Japanese topography.
    The Kofun era ended in 538 AD which was still centuries after Gwangettos time. Horses were not native to Japan and had to be brought over from the mainland and bred over the centuries.

    6.From a number and the size of the old burial mound, I can suppose that Japan had more population @@than Korea.
    @Japan has more population now than Korea.
    Of course Japan has a larger than population than Korea right now. The northern half of it is starving. And how exactly can you measure population size using size and number of burial mounds?

    Type in "Korea three kingdoms" into google or any other search engine and you'll see that Korea was much larger back then. The Korean kingdoms during that time period were already established and possessed stable government structure and modern farming technology of the time. Population growth was stable within the peninsula.

    Hokkaido, Okinawa and the northern half of Honshu was not a part of the Wa people during that time period. What constituted Wa Japan during that time period was small. Most of it being the southern half of Honshu. Japan during that time period did not possess a stable government. Communities relied on less efficent methods of farming or hunting and gathering.

    Korea had a far far larger population then Japan back then.

    7.The group of the scale to receive the recognition as the country from a foreign country existed.
    Primitive African and Native American tribes of the past also traded and established relations with powerful western nations during the time of colonization. It doesnt really mean those tribes were "Advanced".

    @@The gold seal proves it.
    8.@I was not inferior in all fields.
    @@There was it in a basal level.
    @@Existing Japanese cultural heritage proves it.
    Japan as a single functioning country would not come into existence until 1500 years after than Han dynasty period or 1300 years after Gwangettos time. The gold seal only proves that a few Japanese communities out over of 100 traded and maintained relations with the Han dynasty. Japan was still a chaotic island of 100 or more warring communities with different leaders and views.

  15. #315
    In imagination land Chidoriashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMordon View Post
    Your translation is awful.

    Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a great country is innaccurate. The correct translation is "Shilla and Baekje both take Wa to be a large country".
    The ‘ĺ makes no reference to Japan being "great". ‘ĺ is translated into large, not great. The book of Sui was written by Chinese historians who believed their country was at the center of the earth. A Chinese historian would never ever ever ever mention the word "great" with Wa Japan. The word Wa was in fact a derogatory term for the Japanese and implied island dwarf. The Chinese referred to themselves as great. Not Japan.

    You also minimize the characters ‘˝’ż•¨ which translates into "many precious treasures/objects". The entire passage was talking about Japan's natural resources, otherwise they wouldn't have even mentioned it. So far the translation goes as followed "Shilla and Baekje both view Japan as a large country with lots of precious/rare treasures/resources". Obviously implying that both Koreans viewed Japan as a cash cow rather than a nation who conquered them. This makes even more sense because at the end of the passage they mentioned œ‘’ĘŽg‰˜Ň which translates into "both sent people on missions/envoy"(for those treasures).

    ‹Â has multiple definitions. One of them is "admire" and admire fits this sentence far more than "to look up". Afterall, the entire passage was talking about Japan's resources. So heres the correct translation

    V—…A•SŕZŠFˆČ˜`ˆ×‘ĺš C‘˝’ż•¨C•ŔŒh‹Â”VCœ‘’ĘŽg‰ ˜Ň

    ""Shilla, Paekche both view Japan as a large country(landmass). With lots of rare treasures(treasures). Both respectfully admire it(treasures). And send missions to it(landmass)"".

    Notice how the passage was not talking about the Japanese government or emperor. Why? Because the passage was only talking about Japans landmass and resources. LOL. You need to quit lying and making stuff up.
    I don't often, or even now necessarily agree with many of the things Caster claims, but I would like to point out some things.

    Now, I do not know Chinese, but I do know Japanese, so I would like to ask you something. If the Chinese just considered Japan to be a large landmass at the time then why do they use the character ‘ for country. .and not something more adequate to describe something that was nothing more than a large landmass to them?

    Another thing, I know that ‘ĺ means large usually, but being stuck next to ‘ in any circumstance that I have ever seen it is not just referring to the size of the country. In my Japanese dictionary ‘ĺ‘ is described as, yes a large landmass, and having a large population, but in the same definition it says also someplace with ‘—Í, meaning as you probably can guess, national strength or power. Once again I do not know Chinese so maybe they use the word differently, but maybe this could be the reason for some of differing interpretations of these phrases?

    Also just curious here, but what exactly do you believe the "many rare items/treasures" to even be referring to?

  16. #316
    In imagination land Chidoriashi's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMordon View Post
    Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary. The King of Great Wa resides in the country of Yamadai
    And not to nitpick here. And maybe I have taken this out of context.... but why in the quote that you provided to us is "Wa" referred to using "great" in English? Is this just a bad translation from somebody else?

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    Jomon-Amerindian

    Quote Originally Posted by miyuki View Post
    We have mainly 4 theories about Jomon Jin and Yayoi jin.
    Recentry many people support (4).(Some deny (4).)

    (1)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were thrown out of Japan by Yayoi jin.
    (2)Native Japanese (Jomon jin) were mixed with Yayoi Jin.
    (3)Native Japanese gradually changed their physical features.
    And they became Yayoi Jin.
    (4)There lived Native Japanese.They were called Jomon Jin who had physical features from south ward.In Yayoi period,people who had physical features from nothern ward (Yayoi Jin) came to nothern Kyusyu from Eurasia.They went down to Kyusyu and up to Honsyu.Jomon Jin moved to Okinawa and Hokkaido.

    According to a study of gene (blood), there are two Mongorians.
    Nothern Mongorians are Japanese or Native Americans.
    (Japanese or Native Americans are "Old" Mongorians.Inuit are "New" Mongorians.)
    Southern Mongorians are Chinese,Filipinos,Malayans.
    Tamil in India are mixed.
    The origin of gene (blood) of Japanese was from near the Lake Bikal, one of a gene hunter,Matsumoto Hideo said.
    DNA of Jomon people were mainly (90%) the same as DNA of people who lived near the Lake Bikal.

    I got these informations from some books.
    Old Mongorians have wet ear wax,and New Mongorians have dry one.
    Interesting!
    Yes I am not Japanese or a scientist, but I am struck by how some Japanese have some physical similarities to Amerindians (which Chinese for example do not), and I find it strange that no one has paid much attention this connection. It seems logical that those northern asians that crossed the bering strait toward the Americas during the ice age would also go South to Japan which was also connected to eastern Russia by land. I agree that Japanese ancestry is probably mostly Korean and Chinese, but I think what makes Japanese slightly different is the Amerindian-Jomon connection. If you look at for example Emperor Akihito, he looks similar to a native American or native Mexican.

  18. #318
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    By YDNA hg Japanese - C3a (M93), Apache Cheyenne Sioux - C3b (P39)

    They are from common C3 stock, very near.

  19. #319
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    Resembling Amerindins are minor in numbers, they are paleolithic aboriginese and ---

    There are 3 major male specific gene carriers, YDNA haplogroups, in present Japan:
    (1) Jomon Aboriginese D2
    (2) Dongyi-Hui/Mo (Yemaek in Korean) O2b/O2b1
    (3) Xufu Mission O3/O2a
    they were nuclear fuels that trickled in Japan from about BC200. Control bars were pulled up around AD200 at Yamato (pref. Nara) and chain reaction completed around AD250 when the first sovereign queen died. Japan was born.

  20. #320
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    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMordon View Post
    Japan wasn't a unified country. There was no "Japanese" country during that time period. Japan was a landmass inhabited by the people of Wa who were split into dozens of communities each with different kings/tribal leaders. No different from America before the arrival of Columbus.

    These communities would wage war against each other for centuries and would not unite into a true singular country(Japan) as we know it until 1500 years later. During Hideyoshis time. Here are some Chinese records of the time period as evidence

    ====Chinese records on Japan's status during that time period==========
    Book of Han(Chinese historical text)
    Beyond Lo-lang in the sea, there are the people of Wo. They comprise more than one hundred communities.

    Book of Wei(Chinese historical text)
    The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities.

    Book of Wei(again)
    Over one thousand li to the east of the Queen's land, there are more countries of the same race as the people of Wa.

    Book of Later Eastern Han
    The Wa dwell on mountainous islands southeast of Han [Korea] in the middle of the ocean, forming more than one hundred communities

    Book of Sui
    During the Wei dynasty, over thirty countries [of Wa-kuo], each of which boasted a king, held intercourse with China.

    Hou Han Shu
    Each community has its king, whose office is hereditary.
    =======

    Its true that Japanese communities of the past maintained relationships with the Han dynasty of China. And this is actually well known. I even mentioned it 2 pages ago. However, it still favors my argument either way. This does not signify Japan the country as trading with China or Korea. It signifies one of the more than 100 communities trading with mainlanders.

    Chinese record(history of Wei)
    The people of Wa dwell in the middle of the ocean on the mountainous islands southeast of [the prefecture] of Tai-fang. They formerly comprised more than one hundred communities. During the Han dynasty, [Wa envoys] appeared at the Court; today, thirty of their communities maintain intercourse [with us] through envoys and scribes.

    As you can see, it wasn't Japan that maintained relations with China. It was the tiny fractured communities of Wa people.



    Only one problem though, Gwangetto ruled during 374-413 AD. Over a century before Japan's earliest sword. By that time period, all three Korean kingdoms had complicated iron weaponry, cavalry and armor. Japan didnt. You can see why its very unlikely that Japan- a fractured country of over 100 warring tribes without organized government, iron weapons and armor was somehow able to cross the sea in large numbers and defeat the technologically and numerically superior Korean kingdoms of Shilla and Paekche.

    The Inariyama Sword was a special made gift for one of the Wa kings of the island. It was tailored made for him. This in no way signifies that the vast majority of Japanese people during that time period used iron weapons as was the case on the mainland. Japan would not truly reach the iron age until much later. And they would only use iron weapons in combat much later as well.

    One more thing, the sword is in such poor condition that its date is difficult to establish. The swords age ranges from 471 AD to 521.



    Whats your definition of sophisticated armor?

    Because all complicated plate and metal armor during that time period were of Korean design(Kaya, Baekje etc).



    The Kofun era ended in 538 AD which was still centuries after Gwangettos time. Horses were not native to Japan and had to be brought over from the mainland and bred over the centuries.



    Of course Japan has a larger than population than Korea right now. The northern half of it is starving. And how exactly can you measure population size using size and number of burial mounds?

    Type in "Korea three kingdoms" into google or any other search engine and you'll see that Korea was much larger back then. The Korean kingdoms during that time period were already established and possessed stable government structure and modern farming technology of the time. Population growth was stable within the peninsula.

    Hokkaido, Okinawa and the northern half of Honshu was not a part of the Wa people during that time period. What constituted Wa Japan during that time period was small. Most of it being the southern half of Honshu. Japan during that time period did not possess a stable government. Communities relied on less efficent methods of farming or hunting and gathering.

    Korea had a far far larger population then Japan back then.



    Primitive African and Native American tribes of the past also traded and established relations with powerful western nations during the time of colonization. It doesnt really mean those tribes were "Advanced".



    Japan as a single functioning country would not come into existence until 1500 years after than Han dynasty period or 1300 years after Gwangettos time. The gold seal only proves that a few Japanese communities out over of 100 traded and maintained relations with the Han dynasty. Japan was still a chaotic island of 100 or more warring communities with different leaders and views.
    I think you are all over the show..you quote chinese literature, but do you know what they are saying? I think the more you go on,
    the more of a fool you will show of yourself..your information is only half-value... re the sword that japan didnt have that you claim,
    which or rather what sword you talking about? can you clarify? as starters?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Adam View Post
    Yes I am not Japanese or a scientist, but I am struck by how some Japanese have some physical similarities to Amerindians (which Chinese for example do not), and I find it strange that no one has paid much attention this connection. It seems logical that those northern asians that crossed the bering strait toward the Americas during the ice age would also go South to Japan which was also connected to eastern Russia by land. I agree that Japanese ancestry is probably mostly Korean and Chinese, but I think what makes Japanese slightly different is the Amerindian-Jomon connection. If you look at for example Emperor Akihito, he looks similar to a native American or native Mexican.
    absolutely not.. he does not look a bit like american indian..total different facial strucures...

  22. #322
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    chidoriashi, you are absolutely right.. if what jichael was saying was correct, the chinese would have used the term 大地 rather than
    the word they used 大国、which obviously then they recognized japan as a country, and in this word, a great country!!..think jichael
    needs a bit more studying in his native korea...

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    I think we're getting way of point here. We can all agree that Korean Kingdoms largely influenced, and populated Yamato during the Kofun (Yamato) Period. But I think it would be better to continue discussing who was present during the time of Yamatai confederacy, and who were the original Yayoi. Note: There is a difference between the three.

  24. #324
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    Here's the point I was trying to get to: Say, for now, that the Yayoi were all proto-Korean migrants (which looking at mtDNA makes seem like undeniable fact).

    Where, then, did they get the custom of tatooing themselves to ward off spirits? Tattooing was not practiced in the Korean Peninsula, though it was a tradition among the Jomon.

    Why did they pull out people's front teeth to differentiate kin from outsiders (a tribal ritual in neolithic Chinese Hemudu culture)?

    Why was their clothing- the yokohau, a wrap-around skirt, for men, and the kantoui, a tunic, for women - so different from Korean dress? Although the "hanbok" had not been invented yet, the basic central-Asian design that it originates from had followed migrants all the way through Korea, and one would expect it to have continued to the Japanese Islands. Wa-jin did not start wearing anything resembling the Korea jeogori and baji until later.

    Just food for thought.

  25. #325
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    Amzing this thread is still going-almost teny years old. And Maciamo is back too

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