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Thread: What's the origin of the Japanese people ?

  1. #251
    Swedish town of trolls Trollhattan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    That's the same thing.It's just terminology.

    Anyway, English people have more ' ancient Briton ' blood that was traditionally acknowledged. There is an east to west gradient in the "germanicity" of the English.


    I don't agree in the case of Japanese,no historians could identify the actual ethnic tribes ( i.e. Anglo-Saxon-Jute settled in parts of present day UK & the Norse in later centuries ) known as Yamato & etc and very few modern Koreans & Chinese share ancestral roots to those left the Asia continent for Japan islands pre-13th century.

    Exact scenario for the Japanese,we all thought their ancestors were the Koreans & Chinese but in fact have signifant ancient proto-Mongoloid indigenous genetic component.


    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post


    The ratio isn't 50-50.


    They usually word it " half & half "

  2. #252
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhattan View Post
    I don't agree in the case of Japanese,no historians could identify the actual ethnic tribes ( i.e. Anglo-Saxon-Jute settled in parts of present day UK & the Norse in later centuries ) known as Yamato & etc and very few modern Koreans & Chinese share ancestral roots to those left the Asia continent for Japan islands pre-13th century.
    Exact scenario for the Japanese,we all thought their ancestors were the Koreans & Chinese but in fact have signifant ancient proto-Mongoloid indigenous genetic component.
    Did you read the updated article The Origins of the Japanese people ? I suppose that what you call "ancient proto-Mongoloid indigenous genetic component" equates to Y-haplogroup C and D and mt-haplogroups N9 and M7a ?

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  3. #253
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    ahira(Asherah)>>hashira(柱)
    Asherah pole

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asherah_pole









    Sumo


    Part1 Eng/sub
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=n-8y96LVlsc
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4uVVrePl9e8
    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xoowLHXVTvI

    some of them came to japan, too?

    the Yayoi people crossed the see from Korea to Kyushu, bringing with them a brand new culture, based on wet rice cultivation and horses
    there was no wet rice in korea peninsula at that time

    Genome-wide SNP genotypes of the Japanese show that people from northern Japan (Tohoku and Hokkaido) are the most distantly related to the Han Chinese, while those from Western Japan (Kyushu, Chugoku, Kinki) are the closest. This confirms the theory of the continental Yayoi invasion from Kyushu
    are there Yayois Genome-wide SNP genotypes ? I mean korean or chinese one?
    more than 40% of kyushu ppl have D2. it is higher than average.
    it means they raped Yayoi ppl?

    Native Korean and Japanese words are often related when comparing Old Korean and Old Japanese, but few of them are really obvious to modern speakers.
    what old korean language was related? what is old korean language?
    http://www2.odn.ne.jp/~had26900/topi...o_chosengo.htm


    However, thanks to natural affinities in sensitivities and tastes, South Korea and Japan appear to be culturally closer as ever nowadays
    It is further if it says culturally.
    Chinese, mongolian are far close.


    Btw
    Why did the Christianity come to Japan delaying behind the Buddhism 1000 years or more ..Francisco de Xavier ?
    ridiculous... it took 1000years behind?
    It would have come to Japan earlier than him.
    Last edited by caster51; Dec 27, 2009 at 10:41. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  4. #254
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    Tengu, torah...

  5. #255
    Swedish town of trolls Trollhattan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post


    It is further if it says culturally.

    Chinese, mongolian are far close.



    Koreans & Japanese have been culturally bonded by Chinese civilization,the former nationality is the most " Sinicized " East Asian people.

    Koreans are culturally & geneitcally closest to the Chinese & Mongols.

  6. #256
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    the former nationality is the most " Sinicized " East Asian people
    I think china and korea even asia are getting "Japanized"

  7. #257
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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post


    I think china and korea even asia are getting " Japanized "


    It's a reality through out Asia,I can see a smile on your face

    China should've followed Japan in modernization instead of antagonized the country and acted big when it was in obvious decline with " primitive " weaponery included kung-fu

  8. #258
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    geocities .jp/bxninjin2004/data_room/13/Gwanggaeto.html
    Way to many lies within this link. Its riddled with nationalistic bias. No serious historian would take that link seriously. They make the claim that Japan somehow conquered Korea in ancient times. Despite the fact that the three major Korean kingdoms at the time had iron and bronze weapons, armor, horse cavalry, chariots, larger population and organized government. Of which Japan at the time had none or very little of.
    The Gwangetto stele makes none of the claims the author makes. The passage within the stele he is referring to is heavily damaged and can be interpreted in multiple different ways.

    read passage below

    The Imperial Japanese Army General Staff Office, which learned about the stele and obtained a rubbed copy from its member Kagenobu Sakōo in 1884, became intrigued over a passage describing the king's military campaigns for the sinmyo hK year of 391 (sinmyo being a year designator in the sexagenary cycle that characterizes the traditional Sino-oriented East Asian calendar).[1] Some officers in the Japanese army and navy conducted research during the 1880s and the rubbed copy was later published in 1889. Most Japanese scholars, notably Masatomo Suga, interpreted the passage as follows (brackets designating a "reading into" the text where the character is not legible):
    "And in the sinmyo year the Wa (Japanese) came and crossed the sea and defeated Baekje, [unknown], and [Sil]la and made them subjects."
    They presumed that Wa referred to a centralized Japanese government at the time that controlled the entire western part of Japan.
    In the 1910s and 20s, Ryūzō Torii and other Japanese scholars traveled to Ji'an and observed the stele close hand. They found that the inscription had been repaired by clay and lime, and therefore questioned the credibility of the rubbed copy.[1]
    The first Korean scholarly study was that of Chang in 1955.[2] He supposed that the subjects of the sentence nCj and ਐb were respectively Goguryeo and Baekje. By Chang's interpretation the entire passage read as follows:
    "And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects."
    In 1959 the Japanese scholar Teijiro Mizutani published another important study.[3] He had acquired rubbed copies made before the repair of the stele and concluded that Sakō's copy had not been made by the rubbing method but rather had been traced, a method known in China as o塡n.
    The North Korean scholar Kim reported his conclusions in a 1963 article.[4] He had studied the Japanese chronicles Kojiki and Nihonshoki, and concluded that Wa referred to colonies of Samhan in Japan. He claimed that these colonies were established by Korean immigrants and centered around Kyūshū, Kinai, Izumo. Later, according to Kim, the colonies were absorbed by Yamato polity, which was also founded by Koreans. He also posited that the subject of ғnCjSk was Goguryeo, and Sk was not the Baekje kingdom but Baekje's colony in Japan. Other North Korean scholar also argued for Goguryeo's invasion of Japan.[5]
    Many Korean scholars reject the interpretation that Japan conquered Baekje and Silla on the basis of evidence that cites the contrary. It is difficult to tell when sentences begin or end because of the absence of punctuation and the necessity of reading into the text via context.[6] Furthermore, the subjects Baekje and Silla are not recognizably mentioned in the passage; only the first character for "Baekje" (S) is noted, and even the supposed first character of Silla is not complete (only as opposed to V). Furthermore, the character "jan" (k) was a character used derogatively by Goguryeo in place of the character "jae" (Z) in Baekje's official name (this may have denoted wishful thinking on the part of Goguryeo that another nation came and conquered Baekje). Thus, when taking into consideration the major absence of characters and lack of punctuation, the passage reads:
    And in the sinmyo year the Wa (Japanese) crossed the sea. (Abbreviation of someone's title) made (?) subjects of (?) However, further analysis of the passage is that Goguryeo, not Japan, crossed the sea and defeated Baekje or Wa.
    In the case of this interpretation, and the abbreviation of King Gwanggaeto's title in the passage, the passage states:
    And in the sinmyo year the Wa crossed the sea. King Gwanggaeto (abbreviation) made Silla and Baekje subjects of (?). Some point out several facts that put in doubt the traditional Japanese interpretation of the sinmyo passage. Firstly, the term Wa at the time the stele was made did not solely refer to people from Japan but could also refer to the people from southern Korean, particularly from the Gaya Confederacy.
    [7][8]

  9. #259
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    geocities .jp/bxninjin2004/data_room/13/Gwanggaeto.html
    Way to many lies within this link. Its riddled with nationalistic bias. No serious historian would take that link seriously. They make the claim that Japan somehow conquered Korea in ancient times. Despite the fact that the three major Korean kingdoms at the time had iron and bronze weapons, armor, horse cavalry, chariots, larger population and organized government. Of which Japan at the time had none or very little of.
    The Gwangetto stele makes none of the claims the author makes. The passage within the stele he is referring to is heavily damaged and can be interpreted in multiple different ways
    I think you should read the chinese and the korean document .
    you should read Gwangetto stele.
    Chinese scholars participated in studies of the stele from the 1980s. Wang Jianqun interviewed local farmers and decided the intentional fabrication had not occurred and the lime was pasted by local copy-making workers to enhance readability
    Xu Jianxin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences discovered the earliest rubbed copy which was made before 1881. He also concluded that there was no evidence the Japanese had damaged any of the stele characters
    I do not know why the Korean does not boast of this, "Goguryeo defeated Wa".
    Last edited by caster51; Jan 4, 2010 at 17:47.

  10. #260
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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post
    I think you should read the chinese and the korean document .
    you should read Gwangetto stele.
    Chinese scholars participated in studies of the stele from the 1980s. Wang Jianqun interviewed local farmers and decided the intentional fabrication had not occurred and the lime was pasted by local copy-making workers to enhance readability
    Xu Jianxin of the Chinese Academy of Social Sciences discovered the earliest rubbed copy which was made before 1881. He also concluded that there was no evidence the Japanese had damaged any of the stele characters
    I do not know why the Korean does not boast of this, "Goguryeo defeated Wa".
    I made no mention of the stele being damaged by the Japanese. Although that is a huge possibility. Read the article I posted. I only mentioned that the stele was heavily damaged prior to its finding and its meaning lost over the centuries. The stele can be interpreted in many different ways due to its lost meaning. The stele doesnt even mention Baekje or Shilla outright. Only the first character for "Baekje" (百) is noted, and even the supposed first character of Silla is not complete (only 斤 as opposed to 新). We dont even know if it was actually referring to Baekje. The stele only mentions the damaged word 百. Baekje is spelled 百濟, not 百. The stele mentions the word 斤 which is the incomplete character of 新. Shilla is spelled 新羅. Obviously, 斤 in no way equals 新羅(shilla). Only a Japanese historian can interpret history in such a faulty way. Its delusional.

    You also claim that that the stele was referring to Wa defeating Baekje and Shilla even though this is not stated in the stele or supported by historical records. The stele can be translated in many different ways because the characters are missing. Korean scholars translated the passage as-

    ""And in the sinmyo year Goguryeo came and crossed the sea and defeated Wa. Baekje made [unknown] and [Sil]la its subjects."""

    And this sounds a lot more realistic and is in fact supported by historical records. Goguryeo did in fact defeat Japan and subjugated both Shilla and Paekche during that time period.

    source (De Bary, Theodore and Peter H. Lee, "Sources of Korean Tradition", p. 25-26)

    On the other there is no historical record of Japan ever conquering Shilla and Baekje. Wa did not even possess an organized government, state, iron weapons, horses, cavalry, chariots and its population size was dwarfed by Korea's three kingdoms. So how exactly did Japan fight Goguryeo? The answer- Japan was in fact a colony of Baekje. Whenever Baekje was in trouble, they called up Japanese conscripts and equipped them with modern weaponry at the time. Remember, Japan didnt have iron weapons. Japan wasnt even an organized country, they were a colony controlled by the more powerful Korean kingdoms. Dont believe? Chinese records-The book of Sui states ""Silla and Baekje both take Wa to be a big country of treasure source, with many rare and precious things in Japan; also [Silla and Baekje] highly esteemed it [many rare and precious things], and regularly send their person there"".
    Silla, Baekje and later Goguryeo colonized Japan and considered it a "treasure source" and regularly sent colonists to it. Thats very danming evidence and only Japanese historians deny it and claim that Koreans were somehow sending tribute to japan. As if that makes any sense lol.

    To say that Wa somehow conquered two of Korea's three largest kingdoms at the time is downright laughable. No Chinese record mentions Wa defeating Shilla or Paekche at the time. None whatsoever. No Korean record mentions it either. The Gwangetto Stele is heavliy damaged and can be interpreted in many different ways so it doesnt count. Only a delusional Japanese historian can claim that Japan somehow defeat Korea.

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    Caster51, I havent read all of this topic yet, but I request you quit promoting your lies.

    You remark that Korea did not have wet rice method. Korea had wet rice method long long before Japan ever did. Korea had wet rice method centuries before a Japanese state was even formed. Gaya was never a part of Japan nor was it "founded" by Japanese. It was a Korean state as acknowledged by the vast majority of sane historians. The same goes for Koguryeo and Baekje. They were Korean kingdoms and are still to this day Korean.

    The fact is, you are no historian. You are a fraud. A fraud who only wants to believe what he wants to believe, no matter how delusional or preposterous.

  12. #262
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    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMordon View Post
    ...
    They were Korean kingdoms and are still to this day Korean.
    ...
    At least, most Japanese incl. me and Chinese people are surely surprised at your sense of history.

  13. #263
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun View Post
    At least, most Japanese incl. me and Chinese people are surely surprised at your sense of history.
    Considering how the rest of the world laughs at Japan and China's textbooks and delusional view of history, im not surprised. Japan and China are so similar to each other. They just dont like to admit it.

    P.S. only a complete idiot believes Koguryeo, Kaya and Baekje were Japanese rather than Korean kingdoms.

  14. #264
    Swedish town of trolls Trollhattan's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun View Post


    At least, most Japanese incl. me and Chinese people are surely surprised at your sense of history.



    He's ignorant of East Asia history

  15. #265
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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhattan View Post
    He's ignorant of East Asia history
    And what exactly did I get wrong? Or is it because you guys simply disagree with me? Cant handle the truth?

  16. #266
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    I laugh at all those people who downplay the genetic contribution of ancient Koreans to the modern Japanese stock. Did you know that scientists have found out that one of the major haplotypes in modern Japanese males is Haplotype O2b1 (about 32%)? Did you know that the parent haplotype of O2b1, which is haplotype O2b, is found among 30% of modern Korean males? Also, the modern Altaic Tungus males in modern-day Manchuria is 19% haplotype O2b. Also, the haplotype C3 is found in high frequencies in modern-day Ainu males (12.5%). Korean males have about 11% haplotype C3 (C3 is the nodal haplotype of modern Mongolians).

    I have to admit, though, this doesn't prove that modern Japanese people are direct or pure descendants of ancient Koreans. Scientists have also discovered that many modern Japanese males also have haplotype D2 (which the parent haplotype, D, originated in the Andaman Islands east of India). So, according to modern scientists, modern Japanese people are a curious mixture of Altaic Tunguses from Central Asia (via Manchuria and Korea) and South Asian Austronesian groups (the concentration is more towards the former group than the latter, though).

  17. #267
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    Another thing. Ancient Japan was conquered/invaded/inhabited by a mass of Paekche people from south-west Korea just before the Kofun period. In fact, one study, based on historical records, suggests that the Tungusic Aya tribe (the ancestors of the Yamato) were so numerous on the Honshu mainland that they could not find the presence of indigenous Austronesian/Jomon/Ainu tribes like the Azumi, Hayato, Kumaso, and the Emishi. There were also other Tungusic tribes in Japan but they apparently were not as numerous as the Aya tribe. This is from ancient Japanese records, so you cannot say this was fabricated by Koreans.

  18. #268
    Swedish town of trolls Trollhattan's Avatar
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    lol,feed one's own desire to associate with that which is greater than you.

    Nowadays,Japanese are wanted ( a desire out of inferiority complex ) by the Koreans and Chinese.They are no more or less related to any of these 2 East Asian ethnic groups.

  19. #269
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    Quote Originally Posted by JichaelMordon View Post
    And what exactly did I get wrong? Or is it because you guys simply disagree with me? Cant handle the truth?
    I think thie is for you






  20. #270
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    The oldest rubbed copy of Gwanggaeto Stele(in the northeastern Chinese province of Jilin) was found in China. This rubbed copy conforms closely to Imperial Japanese Army's one, including descriptions about ancient Japan. This fact became clear by Jo Kenshin's study. He is a professor at Chinese Academy of Social Sciences.
    His study put an end to the controversy over the inscription on this stele from 70's. Some people claimed that Imperial Japanese Army had altered this inscription, but this theory could be proved incorrect conclusively.
    The inscription on this stele says:
    "Since 391, Wa(Japan) crossed sea and defeated Baekje, ?? and Silla and made them subjects."
    In 1883, this rubbed copy was gotten by Sakoh Kagenobu, who was an officer of Japan Army General Staff. Japanese Army General Staff concluded that Japan had ruled Korean Peninsula in ancient times.
    After the war, some people questioned the credibility of Sakoh's rubbed copy. In 1972, Lee, professor emeritus at Wako University, claimed that Japanese Army had altered this inscription to justify their expanding to Korean Peninsula. Lee's theory aroused great controversy between the researchers from 4 countries, Japan, China, Korea and North Korea. Since then the widely held theory was propounded, but this theory did not put an end to the controversy over the inscription under the condition that it's difficult to verify theories with the real thing.
    Jo professor have been studying about 50 real rubbed copies in various nations of East Asia. Year before last, he found a rubbed copy copied in 1881 at the auction of Peking. This copy is older than Sakoh's one, which had been considered as the oldest until then. He captured this and Sakoh's to his PC and compared them. Then he found there is no sign of intentional alteration. This year, the outcomes of his study was published in the book, "The study of rubbed copies of Gwanggaeto Stele(TokyoDo)".
    Jo professor stressed the significance of his study and said " This result will release us from proving the emperor-centered historic view of old Japan or Japanese army's involvement, and Gwanggaeto Stele will be appreciated as a pure historical record to reveal the history of East Asia from the 4th to 5th century." But a widely-accepted theory says this inscription describes Japan as a more powerful nation than it really was. This theory explains that the inscription exaggerates the achievement of Gwanggaeto who defeated Japan. Though Imperial Japanese Army's alteration is denied, this does not automatically mean ancient Japan ruled the whole Korean Peninsula.
    This inscription is not the only record about ancient Japan's expanding to Korean Peninsula.
    For example, Chinese book on history, Chronicles of Sui Dynasty("Zui Sho" in Japanese) describes Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power.
    This book says;
    Baekje and Silla thought Japan is a great power and have many rare things. Each of them respects Japan, and dispatches envoys who always come and go to Japan.
    Korean book on history, Chronicles of three nations(Sangokushiki in Japanese) says Baekje and Silla send their princes to Japan as hostages.
    This book says;
    In 397, Baekje establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Chonjiwan to Japan as a hostage.
    In 402, Silla establishes diplomatic relations with Japan, and send their prince, Mikishin to Japan as a hostage.
    Japanese book on history, Chronicles of Japan("Nihonshoki" in Japanese) also records their expansion to Korean Peninsula, though there are various theories as to when each event happened.
    These records are compliment one another and do not conflict with another(They are only representative examples).
    These facts show that ancient Japan really ruled at least a part of Korean Peninsula.
    I think this operation turned out to be improper. They had better claim Japan had invaded their nations without using such big words as "We had given Japan first culture and civilization!". And should they demand an apology from the invasion of over1600 years?
    WA ppls in korean documents
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%80%...96%87%E7%8C%AE
    Wa ppl in the Chinese documents
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E5%80%...96%87%E7%8C%AE

    The five kings of Wa (倭の五王) are kings of ancient Japan who sent envoys to China during the 5th century to strengthen the legitimacy of their claims to power by gaining the recognition of the Chinese emperor. Details about them are unknown. According to written records in China,....These titles for the military Sovereignly over the countries had no actual powers. The appointments reflected the struggle for hegemony over the region between Goguryeo and Wa, depicted in the Gwanggaeto Stele.[1]
    使持節都督倭百斉新羅任那加羅秦韓慕韓七国諸軍事安東太将軍倭国王
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Five_kings_of_Wa
    Last edited by caster51; Jan 7, 2010 at 22:25.

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    Talhae of Silla
    Talhae of Silla (?-80, r. 57-80) was the fourth king of Silla, one of the Three Kingdoms of Korea. He is commonly called Talhae Isageum, isageum being the royal title in early Silla.
    [edit] Background
    He was a member of the Gyeongju Seok clan, one of the noble clans that shared the Silla throne during the early Common Era.
    He was born in a small kingdom 1000 li1 northeast of Wa (Japan)[1]. (The name of the kingdom is Dapana-guk 다파나국 kߚ 2 according to Samguk Sagi, or Yongseong-guk 용성국 [2] according to Samguk Yusa.) His father, King Hamdalpa, was a king of this kingdom, his mother was a queen or princess of another small kingdom.
    wa ppls were kings of Silla
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talhae_of_Silla
    Hogong
    Hogong was a minister of Silla in the age of nation-building. It is recorded that he was originally from the Wa people of Japan, though his surname or clan name was unknown to the compiler of the Historical Records of the Three Kingdoms.[1] He was called Hogong (meaning "Duke bottle gourd") because he was putting on his bottle gourd when he came from Japan. He was a very important person in initial Silla because he appeared in stories of primogenitors of all royal families.
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hogong
    Silla was made by the Japanese?

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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post

    D2

    Hokkado Ainu moved to north from South..
    then, they were isolated in hokkaido
    o3 came from the south, o2b however came from the north, the variation of o2b found in Japan shows colonization occurred much earlier.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Trollhattan View Post
    lol,feed one's own desire to associate with that which is greater than you.
    Nowadays,Japanese are wanted ( a desire out of inferiority complex ) by the Koreans and Chinese.They are no more or less related to any of these 2 East Asian ethnic groups.
    The question is who or what cultural sphere played the most role of state cultural political formation of Japan, I understand qinese want their own piece of the pie when it comes to who influenced who game but only thing they did is populate the area, that's it.
    Last edited by Adulado; Jan 8, 2010 at 04:55.

  24. #274
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    Caster, your lies about the history of the Japanese people are appalling. Get your facts straight and admit that the ancient Koreans played a predominant role in the formation of the Japanese genetic stock.

    O2b originated from Manchuria among the Tungusic tribes. It then passed down to Korea and then went to Japan where it slightly mutated becoming O2b1.
    Last edited by canadian_kor; Jan 8, 2010 at 03:18. Reason: Automerged Doublepost

  25. #275
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    Quote Originally Posted by canadian_kor View Post
    Caster, your lies about the history of the Japanese people are appalling. Get your facts straight and admit that the ancient Koreans played a predominant role in the formation of the Japanese genetic stock.

    O2b originated from Manchuria among the Tungusic tribes. It then passed down to Korea and then went to Japan where it slightly mutated becoming O2b1.

    I an not liying. all things are witten in the korean and chinese document
    that is why I did not show Japanese one according to ancient document.
    I think you should read korean document in Samguk Sagi at first

    Of course a lot of people came via Korea Peninsula.

    and kings of Chosun dynasy was mongolian or manchurian..
    now, 40% of the Japanese have D2
    Jomon ppl's population was small at that time.
    The immigrant was with an invasion. Most of them might be men.
    I think you should know the meaning of 40%of D2
    they came as refgees or slaves?
    Why does the Okinawa language look like Japanese though it is further than Korea?
    there is few word that is same sound and meaning in them between korean and Japanese
    It might be said a brother of different father.

    in case of Jeju island, according to The Goryeosa or History of Goryeo
    you can find an interesting one

    Last edited by caster51; Jan 8, 2010 at 10:37.

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