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Thread: Enjo Kosai : the issue of teenage prostitution

  1. #51
    Manga Psychic PaulTB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by moyashi
    Probably the only way out of this vicious circle is to break the economics involved here. Put more Osakan Ingenuity into Soaplands and drop the prices. Or put the police on the streets, enforce the drinking age which will kill many local drinking districts and the economy with it, yet, protect the young girls.
    As it happens there have been a lot of crack-downs on brothels and clubs recently - with the usual efforts to find loop-holes and get round the regulations. For example - your club can't stay open very late at night? Open very early in the morning instead. Your brothel got busted? Work as a call girl instead.

    One problem is that these crackdowns only really hit the 'middle' of the 'scale of evil' ('scuse the phrasing ) Those pushed out of the 'illegal but relatively stable 'jobs' at long established brothels etc are either going to go 'up' into something technically legal (like call girls are AFIAK) or down into something even more illegal and dangerous such as street walking. Generally it's easier to slip down than it is to go 'up'.

  2. #52
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    Yeesh, this topic is enough to make me not want to live in Japan anymore.

  3. #53
    Your Goddess is here Ma Cherie's Avatar
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    I see another deep social issue that needs to be taken care of. What would make these girls do this to their bodies, other than the fact that it's being bombarded at them through the media? Peer pressure? Because it's a trend? I wonder.
    "Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."
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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma Cherie
    I see another deep social issue that needs to be taken care of. What would make these girls do this to their bodies, other than the fact that it's being bombarded at them through the media? Peer pressure? Because it's a trend? I wonder.
    Money. Plain and simple.

  5. #55
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    A woman's worth

    I disagree that aversion to prostitution is merely the result of Judeo-Christian values. Prostitution is not immoral just because Christians say so. It's bad because for anyone, anywhere you wouldn't want your mother, sister, or daughter to do it, because people, male or female, are worth more than that.

    Quite frankly in the Old Testament women were treated like dogs. There were many prostitutes in those times and they were tolerated. The books only speak out against temple prostitutes or priestesses who ***** themselves to idol worshippers. Of course they looked down on whores, but they also looked down on women in general. For the longest time, prostitution was the only viable occupation for many women the world over. Although people looked down on whores, by no means did they put a stop to prostitution or even hindered it, and it flourished in antiquity.

    However in modern times, women the world over are seeking equality and pursuing careers in industry. And trust me women who built up their careers look down on whores more than anyone else does. I know I do unless that's the woman's only option. The lives of men and women are going up in value every decade. For instance, nobody in the US had any qualms with slavery 200 hundred years ago, but now it's outlawed nearly everywhere except the most troubled nations.

    Prostitution stops when a woman says she's worth more than a few hundred bucks or a LV bag, when she can't be bought. The fact that so many women ***** themselves in Japan testifies to women's low status there.
    Last edited by A.A. Lee; Apr 22, 2005 at 06:59. Reason: make it easier to read

  6. #56
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    "this topic is enough to make me not want to live in Japan anymore."
    men are men anywhere and EVERYWHERE; maybe a vacation at paradise island is in order?
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  7. #57
    Manga Psychic PaulTB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamer Brad
    Money. Plain and simple.
    Money, but not at all plain and simple. Why is 30 quid for a few accessories so important and why is the means to get it so unimportant? Those are questions of relative values - and not the literal 'price tag' sort.

    I also disagree with the "Unique Japanese culture of prostitution" idea with respect to Enjo Kousai. The idea of young girls prostituting themselves on their own behalf is by no means an old established tradition. The very fact that this phenonomen appeared were it didn't previously exist shows a change has taken / is taking place. If anything this change is likely to be Western cultural 'values' - albeit a subsection.

    Emphasis on commercialism, brand goods, what money can buy. Bombardment by adverts and magazines featuring sexy models in sexy situations. Aren't these all outcomes (exaggerated in places) of Western influence brought over to Japan since the 2nd world war?

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by budd
    "this topic is enough to make me not want to live in Japan anymore."
    men are men anywhere and EVERYWHERE; maybe a vacation at paradise island is in order?
    Ahem, I am a boy

  9. #59
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    Prostitution in Asian countries

    Aren't these all outcomes (exaggerated in places) of Western influence brought over to Japan since the 2nd world war?
    No, prostitution in Asian countries has existed for a long time on a large scale. Overt sexual symbols in the media promoted more flexible attitudes towards sex in the West, but not prostitution. Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.

    The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West. If this were the case we would hear of Western teenage girls prostituting themselves in large numbers, but this isn't happening. In America, nobody respects a *****. A teenage girl who prostituted herself would automatically lose status no matter how fancy her clothes and accessories are. And the US is the most materialistic country in the world. Enjo kosai results from more lax attitudes towards prostitution in the East, which reflects the lower status of women there.

  10. #60
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by PaulTB
    Money, but not at all plain and simple. Why is 30 quid for a few accessories so important and why is the means to get it so unimportant? Those are questions of relative values - and not the literal 'price tag' sort.
    I agree, especially that it is not difficult to find a job for women in Japanese cities where enjo kosai happen. It's just that it's a quick way of making a lot of money, so many girls prefer it to working at a combini or becoming an OL (or they combine enjo kosai with it).

    Another problem is when enjo kosai is done by girls under 15, which I heard is quite common, and getting worse with time (always younger and younger). It is also ununderstandable as their parents would probably have bought them what they want, given that Japanese parents usually spoil their children nowadays.

    I also disagree with the "Unique Japanese culture of prostitution" idea with respect to Enjo Kousai. The idea of young girls prostituting themselves on their own behalf is by no means an old established tradition. The very fact that this phenonomen appeared were it didn't previously exist shows a change has taken / is taking place. If anything this change is likely to be Western cultural 'values' - albeit a subsection.
    Prostitution has always been better accepted in Japan than in the West. The same is true of nudity. The women's status was also lower before than it is today, which can only play toward a higher rate of prostitution.

    However, I agree that a mistaken Western influence has played an important role. I heard many Japanese say that they thought Westerners had sex more casually than the Japanese, which is false. When discussing the enjo kosai problem or the omnipresence of soaplands, porn, etc. I was told that the Japanese thought that Westerners approved even more of that given the freedom that women enjoy in Western countries !! They completely misunderstood what femininism was about. It's justly the opposite, i.e. that women should not be treated as sex objects (in a Japanese mind, it means that women are free to have sex with whoever they want, even to get a promotion or get money ).

    Emphasis on commercialism, brand goods, what money can buy. Bombardment by adverts and magazines featuring sexy models in sexy situations. Aren't these all outcomes (exaggerated in places) of Western influence brought over to Japan since the 2nd world war?
    I have always had the impression that material goods are more important than "moral values" (e.g. self-respect, pride) in Japan and the rest of East Asia. Maybe that it partly because of the culture of humility, and partly because of collectivism ("everyone is the same, after all"). Rather than enjoying being different, unique or strive for personal achievements to satisfy one's pride, the Japanese enjoy being the same as the rest of the group, to satisfy their recognition from the group or avoid being criticised for being different. This also means that once something becomes accepted by the group, it is difficult to stop it (eg. bicycle & umbrella thefts, enjo kosai, reading porn in trains, etc.), because the "group moral" is stronger than "individual moral".

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  11. #61
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    No, prostitution in Asian countries has existed for a long time on a large scale. Overt sexual symbols in the media promoted more flexible attitudes towards sex in the West, but not prostitution. Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.

    The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West. If this were the case we would hear of Western teenage girls prostituting themselves in large numbers, but this isn't happening. In America, nobody respects a *****. A teenage girl who prostituted herself would automatically lose status no matter how fancy her clothes and accessories are. And the US is the most materialistic country in the world. Enjo kosai results from more lax attitudes towards prostitution in the East, which reflects the lower status of women there.
    I totally agree with you here.

  12. #62
    Manga Psychic PaulTB's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    The phenomenon of enjo kosai cannot be blamed on the West. If this were the case we would hear of Western teenage girls prostituting themselves in large numbers, but this isn't happening.
    That doesn't logically follow. Just because influence of country A results in some situation in country B doesn't mean that the same situation is present in country A.

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    No, prostitution in Asian countries has existed for a long time on a large scale.
    Which I'm not disagreeing with. Of course prostitution has also existed for a long time on a large scale in most of the countries of the world.

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    Overt sexual symbols in the media promoted more flexible attitudes towards sex in the West, but not prostitution.
    But as you point out the West isn't the East. The same influence (westernised media sex symbols) doesn't have to have the exact same result.
    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    Many women in the West do have sex freely, but that doesn't make them whores.
    Technically I think that makes them sluts.*

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    In America, nobody respects a *****.
    As opposed to sluts.

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    A teenage girl who prostituted herself would automatically lose status no matter how fancy her clothes and accessories are.
    And when found out they lose status like nobody's business in Japan. It's now a fairly common problem for girl who have been involved in Enjo kousai and have pictures / movies get out on the Internet. If you think their status isn't lost you're nuts.

    Quote Originally Posted by A.A. Lee
    And the US is the most materialistic country in the world. Enjo kosai results from more lax attitudes towards prostitution in the East, which reflects the lower status of women there.
    Granting the 'more lax attitudes towards prostitution' that only provides _one_ of the variables. Increased materialism and changing attitudes to sex form two of the others.

    * Yes 'slut' is a nasty word - but so is '*****' which you've chosen to throw around.

  13. #63
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    ive always beleieved in the fact that just because an american-european thinks something isnt entirely right, doesnt make it so, and that we shouldnt judge other cultures and interfere beyond reason but....

    sometimes their are certain aspects of another countries condition which i just feel cannot be protected by any given excuse.

    enjo kasai, teenage prostitution is wrong, smack my opinion down as nothing more then western christian bigotry or whatever all you want, but i feel teenage prostitution is wrong, no matter what the country or culture.

    i have friends who smoke pot, i dont care, its their choice, i know of girls who dont sell themselves, but sleep around like a marathon runner runs a race, hey its their choice, but i stop short of under-age girls selling themselves.

    i know, im an evil evil man who deserves eternal damnation for my pseudo-christian evilness even though im not christian or of any religious persuasion outside of science and maybe a the odd passing philosophical hypothesis regarding those momments surrounded by nature.

    and to a lesser extent, even though im not fond of the openess of this lolicon fetish in japan, and how blatantly avaliable pornographic imagry is in japan, that is somewhat more allowed to be excused by cultural difference.

    think of cultural differences in respect to deciding what is just different or whats wrong like this......



    if you were a father/mother, would you feel content with your daughter being an item of sexual desire by middle aged salary men ,and the prospect of her selling her body just to afford that accessory or clothing or bag or whatever?



    after thinking from this viewpoint, picturing myself as a japanese father, ide still want to punch any dirty old man staring at my 13 year old daughter, but my western evil bias might still be in there somewhere.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamer Brad
    Money. Plain and simple.
    Not entierly true. Money would be one reason, but there are others.
    To feel appreciated, or accepted among friends.
    Some might even do it to feel that they have power. The power to attract men who would give you anything to be able to spend time with you.
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  15. #65
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    i think a large problem is japans overall apathy towards stopping it, it stops short of openly feeling okay with it, japanese guys just dont seem interested enough in stopping it.

  16. #66
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    Originally posted by PaulTB:
    "That doesn't logically follow. Just because influence of country A results in some situation in country B doesn't mean that the same situation is present in country A."
    You said teenage prostitution in Japan was the result of Western influences without mentioning any other reasons. If it were purely the result of Western influences then logically the same thing would happen in the West. But this is not the case and I merely stated this and other reasons why this happens in Japan and not America.

    Still your argument does have merit. A lot of girls here work menial jobs to buy more girly crap, which is a total waste of time and effort. While boys are encouraged to play sports and work with tools, girls are encouraged to shop and wear fancy clothes. However shopping just wastes money and fancy clothing doesn't do anything useful. These are all passive activities where you just do what you're told. Gap, Express, and Co tell girls what style to wear and they just follow it. Watching movies and tv is the same way. You're merely a spectator and you have no control over what happens. Unfortunetly the hobbies of many women only consists of shopping, watching movies, and other passive activities. In other words even in the West boys are taught to be more active and competitive, and girls are still taught to be more passive. This means that women are not as prepared to compete in the business world as men.

    Fashion is the worst culprit because it fosters low self esteem in girls who do not fit the ideal image that's advertised everywhere. Of course in America, this doesn't lead teenage girls to prostitution as whores are always protrayed as victims and outcasts, but it still undermines the confidence and independent thinking of women. Women also burn up valuable capital on frivolous junk. Fashion companies engender insecurity in girls and then prey on that insecurity to make money. In short, they're evil and women should stop buying their crap.

  17. #67
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    I haven't read the whole thread, just some on the first page, but this clarifies a lot of things up for me. I guess they really want the cash (to buy stuff) so they can at least have what their friends have or something of that nature. I never understood why some people are very materialistic.
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  18. #68
    JREF Resident Alien Pachipro's Avatar
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    On average the Japanese are very materialistic. To them, sporting a brand name item is more important than anything. It kind of shows that they have "class" or that they are "hip". For some reason, most Japanese women MUST have name brand handbags, scarfs, perfume, etc. and to acquire these items some young Japanese women do turn to prostitution or find a "sugar daddy" in order to flaunt these items in public. Others may work as hostesses at night in order to earn the extra cash to afford these items. Men will also do the same by spending most of their hard earned money for name brand items like golf clubs, belts, colognes; etc. Just look at the thread about the Mandom commercial for what we would call in the states "Baby Wipes". If it's cool and "talents" are using them then they must have it regardless of the cost.

    I have dated and known quite a few women who felt this way and who spent all their hard earned money in the persuit of these items. It is something I have never completely understood. Needless to say these relationships never lasted very long after I found out what was "important" to them.
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  19. #69
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    I split the thread, the issue of generally "legalising prostitution" can be found here.

  20. #70
    Yami no Matsuei Reiko_no_Tabi's Avatar
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    Thumbs up Sigh...

    Gah, reading all this makes me glad I believe until waiting until I'm married to have sex. *Never will that ideal waver...* But in response to
    Prostitution stops when a woman says she's worth more than a few hundred bucks or a LV bag, when she can't be bought.
    I have to say you put it perfectly. That statement resonated with me more than any other I've read.

  21. #71
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    Difficult to Accept

    Hi there

    The true is, I really don't know what's going on with this world (not particularly targeting any country). Well, no offence or anything. Just that my way of thinking are more to tradition.

    I can't accept things like that which you ruin your own body that given by your parents which is the biggest gift of all. I wish to ask the girls today, what is the most important things in life? Is that money? Well, there are always things that money can't buy as your......first time. If you guys know what I mean. It is the most precious things in the world where you can only have 1.

    Money, we can earn it and loss it easily, however, there are a lot of things which are important may be loss forever if you don't appreciate it.

    I can't accept the concept of marrying just for accompany. Well, if you just need someone beside you, there always friends be there for you. Wife will be different where they will give birth to your children and take care of the family. Family member is very important where money can't buy. Can you imagine a husband or wife sleep with someone else (stranger) just for money? We are all corrupted and how are we going to set good example to our next generations?

    I am getting worry about my future as well where I hardly trust anyone today. I am also getting worry that my children will mix with the people they shouldn't mix with. I just wish for a better future for my children.

    I know I can't do anything about it. But....I just wish 1 day someone will see what I see and I entrust this to my future children. Hope a better world coming tomorrow.

  22. #72
    Yami no Matsuei Reiko_no_Tabi's Avatar
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    Giving it further thought...

    Thinking of it from another perspective, whatever people may say about religion (Christian in general), whether you believe or you don't or you don't know, I'm glad that I live in a nation where it is. Although a lot of people aren't "Christians" in the strictest sense and I hesistate to use the term for myself because of how loosely it is used, I think that it (as well as other religions) provides kind of moral guidelines, almost like a list of instructions. I've known a lot of people who've rarely followed them, but even so they know right from wrong from what they've been taught, whether they follow it or not. So I can better understand the reason for something like enjo kosai happening only because I realize that the religious and moral standpoints vary from country to country. I hate to say I "understand" it, because I certainly don't agree with it. When I hear about stuff like that happening I just wish that people would stop and realize that they're worth so much more than any dollar (or yen) amount. Ah well...

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