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Thread: Ainu recognised as indigenous people of Japan

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    Œ‹àŽ– (what a tasty dog) A ke bono kane kotto's Avatar
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    Ainu recognised as indigenous people of Japan

    The Japanese government has finally recognised that the Ainu are indegenous people, and therefore a minority ethnic group.

    Since Hokkaido was annexed to Japan in the late 1800's Japanese authorities tried to make Ainu culture and language disappear. Now that they have almost succeeded, they can become more tolerant toward the Ainu.

    Recognition at last for Japan's Ainu

    I wonder if this has something to do with recent DNA research that suggested that a substanstial part of the Japanese gene pool was of Ainu origins.

    Japanese roots surprisingly shallow

    In the l980s new research on DNA taken from burial remains revealed even more startling results: The islands' first inhabitants had little in common with most modern Japanese — but were almost identical to the Ainu, a tiny indigenous group now found on Hokkaido.

    The same analysis also showed modern Japanese are close genetic kin to Koreans and Chinese.

    A younger generation of Japanese archaeologists now accepts that some sort of migration took place and that ethnic minorities like the Ainu are much more closely related to Japan's original inhabitants.

    Debate among researchers focuses on just how many migrants came and whether they violently displaced the natives — or peacefully intermarried with them.

    "It's only since the 1970s that we started to see this period in history more dispassionately," said Yoshinori Yasuda, a professor of archaeology at the International Research Center for Japanese Studies in Kyoto.

    The public remains largely ignorant of these developments, despite the enormous popular interest in Japan's past.

    Newspapers, which devote a remarkable amount of print to archaeological finds, proclaim any site, no matter how old, as left by "our ancestors."

    School textbooks still give the last ice age as the date of the most recent migration to Japan from mainland Asia — if they mention outside influence at all.

    Even the museums curated by archaeologists themselves often display diagrams showing how ancient hunters evolved into the present-day Japanese "salaryman."

    So widely accepted are such views that when NHK aired a documentary two months ago describing some of the recent DNA findings, it was immediately deluged by more than 200 calls.

    "Most of the viewers expressed shock or surprise," said NHK spokeswoman Akiko Toda. "A few refused to believe it."
    Jomon Genes : Using DNA, researchers probe the genetic origins of modern Japanese

    The researchers began to realize that YAP might prove useful when an initial study of Asian populations revealed that only men from Japan seemed to harbor the genetic marker. In Taiwan and Korea, for example, not a single man was found to possess YAP, Hammer and Horai reported in the American Journal of Genetic Studies suggest that Japan s original inhabitants, the Jomon, mixed with a later culture, the Yayoi. The Jomon's closest descendants today inhabit Japan's northern and southern islands.
    ...
    From that evidence, Hammer and Horai hypothesized that the YAP element was originally carried to Japan by the Jomon and that the Yayoi, who came from the region that now makes up North and South Korea, lacked the marker. More recent research has strengthened this theory.

    Working with several colleagues, the two researchers mapped the distribution of YAP-positive chromosomes throughout Japan. While men living in central Japan rarely carry YAP. the Ainu and inhabitants of the southern islands, the two populations apparently least influenced by the Yayoi, frequently do.
    In the article The Origins of Japanese people on this website, it was suggested that 35% of Japanese men belong to the Ainu haplogroup D. This means that at least 1/3 of the Japanese gene pool is of Ainu (or Jomon) origins through the paternal line.

    This hard scientific evidence that modern Japanese are of mixed Yayoi (Sino-Korean) and Jomon (Ainu) descent has not been accepted by the largest part of the population. Things are starting to change. The NHK (a public TV channel) is trying to popularise the new findings. The recognition of the Ainu is probably a consequence to this new understanding of the genetic origins of the Japanese.
    I like ”ülƒlƒX

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    Regular Member Mars Man's Avatar
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    Yes. I saw an article on that this morning in the newspaper. It's about time, really. As for the details of any relation to that DNA research, I have no idea.

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    I wonder if this has something to do with recent DNA research that suggested that a substanstial part of the Japanese gene pool was of Ainu origins
    http://www.oniazuma.com/2008/01/look...-japanese.html

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    Quote Originally Posted by A ke bono kane kotto View Post

    I wonder if this has something to do with recent DNA research that suggested that a substanstial part of the Japanese gene pool was of Ainu origins.

    The Origins of Japanese people on this website, it was suggested that 35% of Japanese men belong to the Ainu haplogroup D. This means that at least 1/3 of the Japanese gene pool is of Ainu (or Jomon) origins through the paternal line.


    Mainstream " native " Japanese have long denied their own indigenous roots,they now finally feel comfortable of acknowledging it.

    Those conquered Emishi people weren't completely wiped out or disappeared during Yamato's " eastward expansion ",I believe they blended in or assimiliated into the general population except for the ones ( now known as Ainu ) in remote villages of Hokkaido.

    * A Jref thread on Ainu & Emishi

    http://www.wa-pedia.com/forum/showthread.php?t=34558

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    Those conquered Emishi people weren't completely wiped out or disappeared during Yamato's " eastward expansion ",I believe they blended in or assimiliated into the general population except for the ones
    they were not living in only tohoku area
    they were living in whole japan.

    for example, saeki clan
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E4%BD%...BC%AF%E6%B0%8F

    I think that in process of their moving to the warm place, hokkaido ainu was isolated

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    I like this theory it is fun

    about Emishi..

    a first, nihonshoki is a story of history....
    according to Nihonshoki, Yamato fought against emishi when it conquered in Japan.
    what is the Yevusi in Holy bible? I guess....
    http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=ja...C%E7%B4%A2&lr=

    what does ananiyashi mean in ancient Hebrew Aramaic
    ?.
    in Nihonshoki , when Izanagi and Izanami got married, they shout " ananiyashi(ana-nisa)"

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    The Geezer Sensuikan San's Avatar
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    An Interesting People

    I confess that I did not realise that the Ainu were not officially recognised for being what they undoubtedly are!

    I agree with Marsman; this is recognition that is long overdue.

    I am also interested in these peoples for another reason. Is it possible that there are genetic or cultural connections between the Ainu and Amerindians from the Pacific Northwest of Canada and the USA?

    My son has recently become engaged to a young lady who has very strong Northwestern Aboriginal roots (We like to keep adding to the gene pool...!). A few months ago I showed her a few photographs of Ainu and asked her as to which Nation she thought they were from, and where the photographs might have been taken.

    After guessing various Haida and Tlingit people, "somewhere on Vancouver Island" etc. etc. - she was quite amazed when I told her they were inhabitants of Hokkaido! She's still scratching her head.

    ... just food for thought ...

    ƒWƒ‡ƒ“
    Why have an electric toothbrush ... if you don't have electric teeth?

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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensuikan San View Post
    I am also interested in these peoples for another reason. Is it possible that there are genetic or cultural connections between the Ainu and Amerindians from the Pacific Northwest of Canada and the USA?
    From what I understand, there is connection inasmuch there is genetic commonalities between all Native American peoples and the East Asiatics--the Native Americans were descended from a series of migrations that flooded into the Americas during the late Pleistocene/early Holocene.

    Cultural similarities are definitely present, but one must be careful of drawing too many conclusions from scanty anthropological evidence. Indeed, modern Ainu culture is undoubtedly not identical with previous Emishi societies. Changes have been inevitably wrought upon the culture as a result of time, war, and other factors. Culture is never perfectly continuous through time, although they have undoubtedly preserved a great deal of their ancestor's ways of life.

    It is not accurate to compare the Ainu to Native Americans, as some might be tempted to do. Rather, the conquest of the Emishi during the 8th century was more akin to the Roman conquest of Gaul--military rule coincided with the cultural assimilation of the conquered, and the investment of the conquered into the new regime. Hence, the Emishi became integrated into the Fujiwara regency of Tohoku. Those who didn't want to assimilate moved to Hokkaido and became Ezo/Ainu, where they later suffered further losses to Japanese colonization during subsequent periods.

    Hence, to identify them as the indigenous people of Japan isn't entirely accurate--they are descended from them, inasmuch as they are descended from the Jomon and subsequent Emishi peoples.
    Ὦ ƒÌƒÃῖƒË', ἀƒÁƒÁέƒÉƒÉƒÃƒÇƒË ƒ©ƒ¿ƒÈƒÃƒÂƒ¿ƒÇƒÊƒÍƒËίƒÍƒÇς ὅƒÑƒÇ ƒÑῇƒÂƒÃ
    ƒÈƒÃίƒÊƒÃƒÆƒ¿, ƒÑƒÍῖς ƒÈƒÃίƒËƒÖƒË ῥήƒÊƒ¿ƒÐƒÇ ƒÎƒÃƒÇƒÆόƒÊƒÃƒËƒÍƒÇ.

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    it is because Japanese history is the View from Yamato power.
    emishi did not have letters,either.
    There was no grudge because there is no character

    that was why in process of assimilation was easy

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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post

    Emishi were not living in only Tohoku area,they were living in whole japan.



    Not according to the map in this link ...

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_period

    Wa-jins 倭人 ( of Northeastern Asiatic nomadic-stock ) became Yamato people later interbred with Torai-jins from the peninsula and Chinese continent.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokapi View Post
    Not according to the map in this link
    Well, no, that's obviously during the Yamato period. But considering they are descended from the Jomon cultures, then, well, I imagine most of the four islands were occupied by them at some point.

    Quote Originally Posted by caster51
    it is because Japanese history is the View from Yamato power.
    Haha! A historiographical statement! And true, indeed. It appears the Yamato had a sort of "manifest destiny" concept, although that may have been anachronistically attributed to them by later historians/chroniclers.

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    Quote Originally Posted by tokapi View Post
    Not according to the map in this link ...
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yamato_period
    Wa-jins 倭人 ( of Northeastern Asiatic nomadic-stock ) became Yamato people later interbred with Torai-jins from the peninsula and Chinese continent.
    i dont think so .
    there are many jomon Ruins in kyusyu, shikoku...

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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post


    there are many Jomon ruins in Kyusyu & Shikoku...


    Japanese DNA research indicated Jomon-jins were " mixed ethnicities ".

    Northern Jomon = proto-Siberian Emishi & Ainu
    Southern Jomon = Austronesian-origin Hayato & Kumaso of Kyūshū 九州

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    Œ‹àŽ– (what a tasty dog) A ke bono kane kotto's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Sensuikan San View Post
    I am also interested in these peoples for another reason. Is it possible that there are genetic or cultural connections between the Ainu and Amerindians from the Pacific Northwest of Canada and the USA?

    My son has recently become engaged to a young lady who has very strong Northwestern Aboriginal roots (We like to keep adding to the gene pool...!). A few months ago I showed her a few photographs of Ainu and asked her as to which Nation she thought they were from, and where the photographs might have been taken.

    After guessing various Haida and Tlingit people, "somewhere on Vancouver Island" etc. etc. - she was quite amazed when I told her they were inhabitants of Hokkaido! She's still scratching her head.
    There is one way to know. Comparing the haplogroups (PDF world map here). This is how geneticists know about ancestral origins. The Y-DNA haplogroup trace the paternal line and the mtDNA haplogroup the maternal line.

    The Ainu belong to Y-DNA haplogroup D, which is not found in the Americas. Their closest relatives appear to be the Tibetans. Native Americans belong mainly to Y-DNA haplogroup Q. Some belong to haplogroup C, also found in Japan, but not among the Ainu.

    The Ainu mtDNA lineages mainly consist of haplogroup Y (21.6%) and haplogroup M7a (15.7%). Neither is found in the Americas, but rather in China or Siberia. Native American mtDNA haplogroups are A, B, C, D, G and X. All are found in Japan and China, except D (Siberian) and X (European and Siberian).

    From this data, I can say that the Ainu are not related to Native Americans. On the other hand non-Ainu Japanese are genetically close to the Native Americans on their maternal line, and share some limited connections on their paternal line.

    What is interesting is that mtDNA haplogroup M is absent from America, but present in all East Asia, Ainu included, and it is most common in India. So East Asian have an Indian genetic component lacking in Native Americans.

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    Professor Ito Abito who is an anthropologist at University of Tokyo, wrote the following.

    When the Yamato Court ( 4th AD-6th AD ) came to prevail throughout the archipelago, a sense of indigenous identity, gradually manifested itself in the islands’ inhabitants. At the same time, however, the inhabitants of the farther fringes of the archipelago during the early period of the Yamato state appear in records under independent names, as ethnic minorities. On the other hand, one could also say that by incorporating local ethnic minorities on the northern and southern peripheries under their rule, they have, in effect voluntarily relinquished their racial homogeneity. One could also say that in the effort to further unity by making the ethnic minorities thus incorporated under their rule into subjects under an emperor system, the illusion of a uniform, homogeneous single race was elevated into a kind of national ideal. In Japan following the Meiji Restoration, which sought to create a modern state and society stressing the correspondence between the concept of race and awareness of the land and the nation, the ethnic identity of the Ainu and the Ryûkyûans has in a sense been denied.

    From this point of view, Japanese people tend to play down all the difference that characterised Japanese society to emphasise an homogenisation that is unreal and imaginary. Now, it is not difficult to understand how the Ainu were considered ‘Japanese’, although less civilised, but still part of Japanese ethnicity. However, these are not the only factors that have helped Japan to develop this peculiar attitude towards border and national identity.

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    The Geezer Sensuikan San's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by A ke bono kane kotto View Post
    There is one way to know. Comparing the haplogroups (PDF world map here). This is how geneticists know about ancestral origins. The Y-DNA haplogroup trace the paternal line and the mtDNA haplogroup the maternal line.

    The Ainu belong to Y-DNA haplogroup D, which is not found in the Americas. Their closest relatives appear to be the Tibetans. Native Americans belong mainly to Y-DNA haplogroup Q. Some belong to haplogroup C, also found in Japan, but not among the Ainu.

    The Ainu mtDNA lineages mainly consist of haplogroup Y (21.6%) and haplogroup M7a (15.7%). Neither is found in the Americas, but rather in China or Siberia. Native American mtDNA haplogroups are A, B, C, D, G and X. All are found in Japan and China, except D (Siberian) and X (European and Siberian).

    From this data, I can say that the Ainu are not related to Native Americans. On the other hand non-Ainu Japanese are genetically close to the Native Americans on their maternal line, and share some limited connections on their paternal line.

    What is interesting is that mtDNA haplogroup M is absent from America, but present in all East Asia, Ainu included, and it is most common in India. So East Asian have an Indian genetic component lacking in Native Americans.

    Wow!

    Obviously, this is more than a hobby with you! I am impressed, and intrigued (... although, perhaps, a little disappointed!).

    Most informative, and clearly put (..even if my own knowledge of these matters is very limited). Thank you for the insight. Much appreciated.

    Regards,

    ƒWƒ‡ƒ“

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    Wow! That's awesome! Wonder what finally prompted that.

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    People are always talking bad about Japan comparing themselves to Ainu when trying to be unique as Japanese nationalism. And "Anti-Asian" or whatever.

    But the Ainu do exist and are a unique part of Japanese culture and ethnic heritage only elsewhere found in Russia. But so what if it's used for some nationalism or whatever, the Ainu need their time to shine. The Han Chinese are not being oppressed, they don't need more recognition, the Ainu need more recognition.

    And I think the Ainu are cool and I don't care if it makes people think I'm racist against Chinese or whatever. The Ainu culture is on the verge of extinction and the Han is the dominant ethnicity is Asia. I'm getting tired of being called racist for thinking highly of the Ainu. Just because they're slightly more Caucasian looking or whatever.

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    Post

    [QUOTE/]
    This hard scientific evidence that modern Japanese are of mixed Yayoi (Sino-Korean) and Jomon (Ainu) descent has not been accepted by the largest part of the population. Things are starting to change. The NHK (a public TV channel) is trying to popularise the new findings. The recognition of the Ainu is probably a consequence to this new understanding of the genetic origins of the Japanese.[/QUOTE]

    Over a couple of years ago I wrote a paper for a anthropology population genetics class about the Ainu, but did significant research on the Japanese population as a whole for back ground info, and what is being aid here is what I found out and I am glad the info is being recognized by the Japanese government! -Mark

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    Quote Originally Posted by mejensen1 View Post
    This hard scientific evidence that modern Japanese are of mixed Yayoi (Sino-Korean) and Jomon (Ainu) descent has not been accepted by the largest part of the population. Things are starting to change. The NHK (a public TV channel) is trying to popularise the new findings. The recognition of the Ainu is probably a consequence to this new understanding of the genetic origins of the Japanese.
    Over a couple of years ago I wrote a paper for a anthropology population genetics class about the Ainu, but did significant research on the Japanese population as a whole for back ground info, and what is being aid here is what I found out and I am glad the info is being recognized by the Japanese government! -Mar

    Yayoi are not only sino-korean.
    Ainu is the Japanese isolated origin as a Jomon




    anyway
    "Ainu is recognised as indigenous people of Japan " makes more discrimination matters
    nobody knows who ainu is in mainland
    my ancester might be an ainu
    I understand Japan should value Ainu culture and tradition more. or Japan should make a resevation for ainu?
    only ainu is indigenous people of Japan?
    it is not.. how about jomon ppi
    I think it is revers discrimination. it gives ainu many privileges
    the view from Yamato imperial, Kamakura samurais were emishi ppl. that is . Azuma ebishu(戎=蝦夷)

    suntory's kumaso scandal
    http://nonjatta.blogspot.com/2007/04...so-effect.html
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9D%...99%BA%E8%A8%80

    I think the world should accept the Japanese is recognised as indigenous people of far east.



    Typical Japanese homeless
    If you watch the Japanese carefuly, you can see the 5 parson in 10ppls look like an ainu
    If the Japanese doesn't shave the beard, the half of them looks like Ainu



  21. #21
    Resident Realist nice gaijin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post
    Yayoi are not only sino-korean.
    Ainu is the Japanese isolated origin as a Jomon
    Strange that the video is flipped horizontally, and that she was playing a sanshin and singing in Okinawan. I had to look up Rimi Natsukawa to see that she's an Okinawan folksinger. It'd be nice if you explained why you decided to put up the video, other than to have an Okinawan say "Oh we look like Ainu!"

    anyway
    "Ainu is recognised as indigenous people of Japan " makes more discrimination matters
    nobody knows who ainu is in mainland
    my ancester might be an ainu
    I understand Japan should value Ainu culture and tradition more. or Japan should make a resevation for ainu?
    Ainu isn't a displaced minority (anymore), there aren't enough left to rationalize a reservation. That aside, reservations themselves are a pretty terrible solution to an indigenous minority; American history can attest to that.

    only ainu is indigenous people of Japan?
    it is not.. how about jomon ppi
    I think it is revers discrimination. it gives ainu many privileges
    the view from Yamato imperial, Kamakura samurais were emishi ppl. that is . Azuma ebishu(^‰ÚˆÎ)
    suntory's kumaso scandal
    http://nonjatta.blogspot.com/2007/04...so-effect.html
    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E6%9D%...99%BA%E8%A8%80
    Without getting into the various contributors to the modern Japanese gene pool, I think the point is that Ainu have now officially been recognized as one of the original indigenous peoples of Japan; this hardly affords them special treatment, especially since the tribe has been mostly diffused into the general population. I'm not sure what reverse discrimination you're talking about. I think the main point here is that the Ainu are officially recognized. All this really calls for is for the fact to be taught to children, and maybe preserve some of that ancient knowledge and culture for future generations, through cultural centers like the Mahoron Museum in Fukushima ( which I've been lucky enough to experience myself: http://www.mahoron.fks.ed.jp/ )

    I think the world should accept the Japanese is recognised as indigenous people of far east.

    Typical Japanese homeless
    If you watch the Japanese carefuly, you can see the 5 parson in 10ppls look like an ainu
    If the Japanese doesn't shave the beard, the half of them looks like Ainu
    Knd of a disparaging comparison between the Ainu and the homeless. Maybe the homeless are the true indigenous people of Japan?

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    Strange that the video is flipped horizontally, and that she was playing a sanshin and singing in Okinawan. I had to look up Rimi Natsukawa to see that she's an Okinawan folksinger. It'd be nice if you explained why you decided to put up the video, other than to have an Okinawan say "Oh we look like Ainu!"
    okinawan can insist it as sama as Ainu because of D2.
    As a result, a lot of camouflaged Ainus showed up.
    because it is so difficult to distinguish from Ainu
    アイヌ民族 認定基準を厳格化 

    2009年06月27日

    ■道方針、協会に指導

     道は26日の道議会予算特別委員会で、アイヌ民族の人たちの認定を厳格化する方向で検討する方針を示した 。現在の戸籍ができる以前の「改製原戸籍」で確認することなどを検討している。北海道ウタリ協会(現・北海 道アイヌ協会)の羅臼支部の会員数が不自然な形で急激な増減をしたことに批判が集まったためだ。また、大学 修学のための学費貸与額のほとんどが減免されていたことについても、今後は返還を前提とした制度を設ける考 えを示した。

     ウタリ協会羅臼支部では96年に会員数が2人だったのが翌年は208人に急増。02年には一転して74人 に減少していた。道の調査では、当時の支部長が組織力を高めるため、家族全員を会員としていたという。また 、「アイヌの人以外の人も会員になっていたようだという証言も得た」とした。大学進学のための学費貸与制度 で、07年度で約千人、計約25億円の貸与額のほとんどが減免され、返済額は160万円にとど まっている
    it is good to accept ainu is an indigenous people of Japan.

    What is the indigenous people' protection as a purpose in its charter?

    先住民族の自決権と、それに伴う政治的地位を決定し、自由に経済的、社会的、文化的発展を追求する権利、強 制的な同化や文化の破壊にさらされない権利、自分たちの土地から立ち退きを強いられない権利などを含みます 。ほかにも、伝統的に所有、占有などをしていた土地や資源に対する権利を認め、自由でかつ情報に基づく事前 の同意なしに収用、占有などされた場合には、原状回復や公正な補償を得る権利をも規定していま す
    先住民族」については、現在のところ、国際的に確立した定義がなく、宣言においても、「先住民族」の定義に ついての記述はないことから、我が国として宣言にいう「先住民族」に該当する民族がどの民族を指すのかにつ いて、お答えすることは困難である
    today there is no pure ainu even in hokkaido
    Why is only the Ainu culture protected?
    Why is not a regional culture protected?
    Why do you distinguish native people though it is the same Japanese?
    Japanese's various cultures also are disappearing if it is said the culture......

    and it is same problem as Gaijin word problem.
    Last edited by caster51; Sep 18, 2009 at 01:29.

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    So what are the benefits an indigenous people enjoy? I see that a lot of people who might not be Ainu have been trying to claim it as their heritage to get special loans for school. Is that it?

    What does it mean to have a culture protected, anyways? Does it mean acknowledging its influence on modern Japan and teaching children about it? Is there something more to it than maybe preserving the arts and crafts and showing people the kind of life the native people had long ago?

    What other regional cultures are you referring to? The only other one I can think of is Okinawan, where there is a very visible influence from the native people.

    Why do you distinguish native people though it is the same Japanese?
    This "we are all Japanese" take on national unity is what led to the disappearance of the native cultures in the first place.

    Japanese's various cultures also are disappearing if it is said the culture......
    ... what cultures? Are you equating modernization to the disappearance of culture? That's hardly comparable.

    and it is same problem as Gaijin word problem.
    ok, please explain that one.

  24. #24
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    Quote Originally Posted by nice gaijin View Post
    So what are the benefits an indigenous people enjoy? I see that a lot of people who might not be Ainu have been trying to claim it as their heritage to get special loans for school. Is that it?
    What does it mean to have a culture protected, anyways? Does it mean acknowledging its influence on modern Japan and teaching children about it? Is there something more to it than maybe preserving the arts and crafts and showing people the kind of life the native people had long ago?
    What other regional cultures are you referring to? The only other one I can think of is Okinawan, where there is a very visible influence from the native people.
    This "we are all Japanese" take on national unity is what led to the disappearance of the native cultures in the first place.
    ... what cultures? Are you equating modernization to the disappearance of culture? That's hardly comparable.
    ok, please explain that one.
    Sunazawa Bikky's son, Sunazawa jin: the truth of Ainu

    後進民族アイヌ
    his blog

    http://koushinminzoku.cocolog-nifty....post-7f6d.html

    http://ja.wikipedia.org/wiki/%E7%A0%...83%83%E3%82%AD

    2



    WOW.. Zainichi koreans are in Ainu organization..and pretending as an Ainu
    they are using ainu ppl to get the benefit and rights
    Last edited by caster51; Feb 16, 2010 at 12:47.

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