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Thread: Gang rape "virile and normal"

  1. #26
    Regular Member Zero-sen's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Warusaru][QUOTE=Maciamo]...Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing). [QUOTE]

    What a complete crock of S*[email protected]!!! Rape is rape, nuff said. It's a disgusting crime, that in my opinion should hold the death penalty. Those comments met quite alot of flak in Japan and rightly so. It violates both the victims rights and life. A friend of mine was raped on her way home from work three years ago and it's still screwing with her head. We were best friends for years and now she won't even be alone in a room with me, she won't even let her own dad near her. I was horrified when i heard this as was my partner. A head judge in the UK once said a woman deserved to be attacked because she was "Dressed provocatively", what a load of crap. These so called "leaders" and govournment officials should resign. I don't care how liberal a nation's attitudes are to sex NOBODY has the right to rape someone.

  2. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Zero-sen

    I don't care how liberal a nation's attitudes are to sex NOBODY has the right to rape someone.

    You're absolutely right, the problem is that in Japan it isn't necessarily seen that way as Japanese law defines rape in a particular way - this means that unless something fits into their (ridiculous) definition, people are likely to get off lightly. It is also true that many cases in Japan are thrown out as it is thought that rape cannot be committed by an acquaintance, although in the UK and US a significant number of rapes are committed by colleagues and even family members.

    The whole thing is really disturbing - and it goes without saying that a lot of sex crimes go unreported in Japan and a lot more get thrown out because the victims are worried about what might happen. In some cases the attackers are known to have threatened the girls with telling their families if they reported the crimes.

    Today there is a growing number of crisis centres and more facilities for women who have been raped, the problem is that Japan is still way behind some other countries.

  3. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Warusaru
    You're absolutely right, the problem is that in Japan it isn't necessarily seen that way as Japanese law defines rape in a particular way - this means that unless something fits into their (ridiculous) definition, people are likely to get off lightly. It is also true that many cases in Japan are thrown out as it is thought that rape cannot be committed by an acquaintance, although in the UK and US a significant number of rapes are committed by colleagues and even family members.

    The whole thing is really disturbing - and it goes without saying that a lot of sex crimes go unreported in Japan and a lot more get thrown out because the victims are worried about what might happen. In some cases the attackers are known to have threatened the girls with telling their families if they reported the crimes.

    Today there is a growing number of crisis centres and more facilities for women who have been raped, the problem is that Japan is still way behind some other countries.
    I think there is the element of women in Japan still not being seen as equals.

    Some argue thats its just the culture, but c'mon....lets get real, shall we?

    Until women are seen as equal to men, I'd bet you a dollar to donuts that rape will always be a flighty concept in the country. At least until the Emperor's daughter is raped.
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  4. #29
    The Akita Hachiko's Avatar
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    Indeed...

    Quote Originally Posted by Winter
    Until women are seen as equal to men, I'd bet you a dollar to donuts that rape will always be a flighty concept in the country. At least until the Emperor's daughter is raped.
    ...with the tabloids following in earnest, to put it darkly with a straight face.

  5. #30
    ¹“VŽg Eternal Wind's Avatar
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    [QUOTE=Zero-sen][QUOTE=Warusaru][QUOTE=Maciamo]...Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing).

    What a complete crock of S*[email protected]!!! Rape is rape, nuff said. It's a disgusting crime, that in my opinion should hold the death penalty. Those comments met quite alot of flak in Japan and rightly so. It violates both the victims rights and life. A friend of mine was raped on her way home from work three years ago and it's still screwing with her head. We were best friends for years and now she won't even be alone in a room with me, she won't even let her own dad near her. I was horrified when i heard this as was my partner. A head judge in the UK once said a woman deserved to be attacked because she was "Dressed provocatively", what a load of crap. These so called "leaders" and govournment officials should resign. I don't care how liberal a nation's attitudes are to sex NOBODY has the right to rape someone.
    I definately agree with u on the whole point,just like in my country,it is really a very shameful act and ppl will look down on the rapist forever

  6. #31
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Back from the graveyard: Year Old Thread

    Quote Originally Posted by Post No.1
    Seiichi Ota, a Liberal Democratic Party lawmaker and former cabinet minister, suggested on Thursday that gang rape could be tolerated as it shows the rapists are "virile" and "close to normal."
    The remark came during a debate among politicians on Japan's declining child population -- a phenomenon Ota attributed to a lack of courage among Japanese men to go into marriage life.
    Quote Originally Posted by Post No.1, Kyodo News
    TOKYO - Liberal Democratic Party (LDP) Secretary General Taku Yamasaki reprimanded party colleague Seiichi Ota on Friday for suggesting Thursday that gang rape could be tolerated because it shows the rapists are "virile" and "close to normal."

    Ota apologized, Yamasaki told a press conference. "Gang rape shows the people who do it are still virile, and that is OK. I think that might make them close to normal," Ota, a 57-year-old House of Representatives member, said Thursday during a debate with other politicians in Kagoshima
    Quote Originally Posted by Post No.1, Maciamo
    They should stop reading "ero manga", that f*ck their brains up !
    This is the weirdest and funniest thread I've seen since I got here. It's strewn with inconsistencies everywhere. Why is it not in the "Humors and Tests" section ?

    Let me answer my own question. Because it has to do with insanity. Then why is it not in the "Science & Technology" section ? It's because the original strangeness of this quite bizzare report threw off Maciamo's otherwise balanced judegement. In fact you gave a partial answer yourself, but why did you turn it into a social studies project ???

    This deserves some serious attention from the psychological point of view. Are there any people versed in criminology or psychology on this forum ? If there are, was it because you (plural, psychologist, clinicians, practitioners, whatever) didn't want to get into the messy argument ??? Nobody talked about it till now, so I'll have to fill in temporarily.
    Quote Originally Posted by Post No. 21 by Satori
    I think the question is why do males in Japan or any country feel so powerless and out of control that they need to take someone else's power and control in order to feel good about themselves?
    Quote Originally Posted by One American Catholic Father in Social Works
    It is understood that quite often violence is deeply connected to sexual behavior.
    Quote Originally Posted by One Soviet Criminologist on a Sexually Motivated Murderer
    The murderer/sex offender was suffering from a severe case of impotence. He was often ridiculed and scolded for premature ejaculation by his wife, and thereafter became impotent. With the sole purpose of securing sexual arousal, he started looking for school children getting off school because most of them were non-domineering being children. He would lure them to remote places and take their lives, which gave him the illusion of absolute control, at which point he experienced orgasm and simultaneous ejaculation.
    Already Satori mentioned the issue of control in rape incidents, but the connection to Mr. Seiichi Ota still hasn't been pursued at all. Why socialize an individual's (several individuals') problem?

    I would like to offer a hypothesis on Mr. Seiichi Ota, who should be now 59 or soon to become 59. He is suffering from impotence. The reason is unclear, but that would have to be decided in a court directed psychological profiling. Whatever the actual cause, because he was suffering from a certain sexually dysfunctioning problem that incidentally caused the perpetrators to engage in gang rape, Mr. Seiichi Ota said,

    "Gang rape could be tolerated as it shows the rapists are 'virile' and 'close to normal.'"
    which was said to support his argument,
    "Japan's declining child population [is] a phenomenon...[attributed to] a lack of courage among Japanese men to go into marriage life."

    On the surface, Mr. Seiichi Ota's intention was to say
    1. Japan used to have a decline in population.
    2. The decline in population was due to Japanese men being timid about entering a married life.
    3. But the gang rapes are sure signs that Japanese men are recovering their manhood, that they have become "virile, and normal again."

    The obvious crack in his logic betrays the pathological symptoms that Mr. Seiichi Ota had been experiencing. His logic can only mean one thing. He himself was not virile, and had been constantly bothered by it, fantasizing about participating in gang rape, or possibly had acted out on this fatasy himself. At the discussion of "gang rapists" in the parliament, he immediately sympathized with the rapists because he was suffering from a categorically identical condition they were suffering.

    I think it was not simply unfair to Japanese women who became victimzed to socialize the issue and find cause in the Japane/Asian DNA or culture, but unscientific to no measure. First study Mr. Seiichi Ota head, and those of the gang rapists. If that goes to show any positive diagnoses, go further to study other kinds of sex offenders. Blaming the Japanese women, Japanese' DNA's, Japanese culture, or switch Japanese with Asian, are just widefly off the mark as a serious thesis for discussion. Let's discuss science, not some baseless sociological b-s- that's worth little more than tabloid gossip material. How could anyone get so low ???
    Last edited by lexico; Mar 15, 2005 at 02:14.
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  7. #32
    The Hairy Wookie Mycernius's Avatar
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    I must look through old treads properly. I read it and was a little disturbed by various comments. I just wondered how many red dots Maciamo san got for some of his post. As for my point of view, I find rape offensive. It is a form of domination on the opposite sex, and should be punished accordingly, though I find the death sentance a little harsh. As for Japans view on the subject, I am sure that there are many men and women in Japan that find the crime just a disgusting as you or I. There was not much mention on females raping men. This does happen in a lot of countries, it's just not talked about as much as female rape. I wonder if it happens in Japan, and what be the ministers view on that? I think his view on male rape would be a little different from his views on female rape. Double standards spring to mind.
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  8. #33
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    I'm just gonna pop out for some gang rape. Be right back.

    what? .. it's almost normal!
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  9. #34
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mycernius
    As for my point of view, I find rape offensive. It is a form of domination on the opposite sex, and should be punished accordingly, though I find the death sentance a little harsh. As for Japans view on the subject, I am sure that there are many men and women in Japan that find the crime just a disgusting as you or I.
    While I agree with you, what worries me is the fact that value judgment of all sorts are preceding scientific judgments in this case. If impotence or loss of dignity/power/hwat-have-you is such a widespread problem, and is causing certain people to go out and batter, rob, maim, rape, and murder, then it is the nature and cure of the disease that must come first, even before prosecution and condemnation. Of course, regardless of the mental conditions, offenders should be brought to justice.

    The abomination of the thesis lies in its inaccuracy of diagnosing Mr. Seiichi Ota's case as a social or biological phenomenon as opposed to psychological. It is a medical case to be studied and treated. What the offenders need is not understanding or justification as DNA or culture, or even the promiscuous tendencies of Japanese/Asian women, or the matter-of-fact directness of certain pornography.

    Where is the help from science & medicine ? Where is Freud and Jung to help out ? Come on people, are we still living in the 19th century ?

  10. #35
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    I am not sure what lexico is pointing at in my several posts in this (old) thread, as my posts were mostly unrelated to the original topic about gang rape. Most of them are about prostitution/enjo kosai and attitude to sex in general across cultures. And I agree with what lexico said about gang rape and Seiichi Ota.

    Although (or because ?) I am married to a Japanese, I maintain that East Asian women have a more relaxed approach to sex than many Western ones, especially those from English speaking countries (with many notable exceptions, but it is the average that counts). There is just no Judeo-Christian concept of "wrong" or "shame" associated to sex in East Asian societies (even in ultra-Christian Philippines). It is not necessarily a bad thing. That means men get to have sex more often and more easily. Maybe there is a link between the timidity of many East Asian men and the lack of timidity of East Asian women. In fact, the same thing happen in Norway or Sweden, where men tend to be less insistant than in the South of Europe (eg. Italy and Spain), and as a consequences women are often "easier", compared to Italy and Spain.

    Another major difference is the relative insouciance and naivite of the Japanese (and other East Asians, thence the epidemic of AIDS in most of South East Asia) regarding STD's. This is much more annoying and doesn't happen much in Scandinavia (I'd say the US has the highest rate of insouciant people regarding STD's, maybe because teenagers tend to have sex earlier than in Europe).

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  11. #36
    Chukchi Salmon lexico's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I am not sure what lexico is pointing at in my several posts in this (old) thread, as my posts were mostly unrelated to the original topic about gang rape.
    I don't care how old a thread is. It is meant to go down in history, right? It was you who considered the two topics related as in your second post.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Maybe it is that Japanese women care less about having sex with strangers (you know all the teen prostitutes, called "enjo kosai") and Japanese men's rape is not that violent (just supposing).
    I'm glad that you are now able to dissociate the two topics. As for the rest of your statement, I find no problem discussing it in another context. Yet I do find it a huge problem discussing it in this context of gang rape and Mr. Seiichi Ota. That's because, as you also are aware, context is everything.
    Last edited by lexico; Mar 16, 2005 at 00:29.

  12. #37
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    gang rape is wrong, in any culture.


    saying that, on the topic of sexuality and equality, japan is japan, and nobody has any right to expect japan to change to fit to your personal view on womens rights, with a japanese g/f i can assure you, their just as fiery spiritted as any western women, its not about equality, its about empathy, and japanese seem to have that, sadly the rampant feminization of the west coupled with our individualistic culture has created women who care for no-one but themselves, or at the least, are less aware of their actions, western men being no less guilty, its not suprising the divorce rates in western countries, especially america and britain, are so horrendous, when everyone is out for themselves, and the warped distorted view feminised women have that equality goes beyond fairness in society, to outright preference in their favour in every aspect.

    of course not all women are like this, but in general the west is simply different then east asia, us westerners no longer take family values and empathy with others as seriously as east asian countries, where family is more important then life itself sometimes.

    im happy with my japanese g/f because when a question is asked, it isnt "how can i gain from this?" but "how can WE gain from this?"





    back on topic, again, gang rape is weak and pathetic, without needing to state the obvious that all rape is weak and pathetic.

  13. #38
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    gang rape is wrong, in any culture.
    Wrong, but virile, and that's a respectable elderly politician who says it, so you should listen and do what he says.

    its not about equality, its about empathy, and japanese seem to have that, sadly the rampant feminization of the west coupled with our individualistic culture has created women who care for no-one but themselves
    That's a good point. Would you say that too much empathy can lead to a greater acceptance of rape ? (oh the poor old man hasn't shagged for 6 months, let's be empathic and let him do his stuff )

    its not suprising the divorce rates in western countries, especially america and britain, are so horrendous
    But Irish and Italian people are even more emphatic as the Japanese, as they have a much lower divorce rate.

    back on topic, again, gang rape is weak and pathetic, without needing to state the obvious that all rape is weak and pathetic.
    So I guess that if weak and pathetic peopel commit it, it becomes normal, which confirms the title.

    Sorry about that.

  14. #39
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    rape is weak and pathetic, it doesnt matter if your japanese, american british or whatever, its effectivly doing someone against someones will, its the same as an un-aggrivated assault, its against the persons will, and effects them.

    if a woman doesnt want to have sex, she doesnt want to have sex, its as simple as that and goes beyond cultural barriers, its the same as being assaulted, if i dont want my face punched in, then i have the right, not not expect it, or want it.

    i agree to a degree that the east asian mentality on sex means to an extent, that at the least, a woman might decide not to report rape, or try and deny it away with things like "but maybe he was just lonely" and other things.

    but still, i cant help but get the impression for the most part, an asian women who's been raped feels as dirty and ashamed and distressed as a western woman.

    an asian person wouldnt like to be beaten up anymore then i would, and i guess the same goes for rape, an asian woman is no more inclined to like being raped any more then a western women.

    but as for the gang-rape commentry, i do accept that to an extent, its based off of a mans possibly slightly distorted opinion of women, which he has developed from his perspective of his culture's opinion of women.

  15. #40
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    rape is weak and pathetic, it doesnt matter if your japanese, american british or whatever, its effectivly doing someone against someones will, its the same as an un-aggrivated assault, its against the persons will, and effects them.
    I was just teasing you. Let's continue.

    if a woman doesnt want to have sex, she doesnt want to have sex
    Who tells you that the rapist asked if she wanted ? Given the high incidence of rape simulation in Japanese porn, could it be that some women actually fantasised about being raped ? Of course there is no way to know which ones.

    but still, i cant help but get the impression for the most part, an asian women who's been raped feels as dirty and ashamed and distressed as a western woman.
    Shame comes mostly from pride, and it seems that East Asian women are not as proud (and selfish) and many of those in English-speaking countries.

  16. #41
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    That politician is in no way the 'average' Japanese man, he represents a minority, period.

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    I've read the majority of this thread, and I have tried to soak in every person's comments with an open mind...I think everyone is trying to understand something that unless you are Asian is very difficult to comprehend.

    1. Asian's are not genetically predisposed to be prositutes...look at the economy, that dictates the prostitution.
    2. Japanese people are obsessed with Western Culture...they try to mimic a lot of what happans in the states...so many violent shows that air in US tv, the Japanese incorporate in their lives. Has anyone seen some of the anime that they air - I have it's uncanny.
    3. There is a great book called Beyond Culture by Edward T. Hall...read it, it explains a lot of the thought process btw Eastern and Western Cultures...I never thought that there was a difference btw myself and my white friends...but this hit home...Japanese women innately try to please people...we can't help it - it's part of saving face, and serving the family
    4. Gang rape is not accepted anywhere...ask any rape women in Japan, they would be horrified that such a thought exists...

  18. #43
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    After reading this entire thread I only have one thing to say: It's a damn good thing guns are illegal in Japan and that I live here in the United States because there would be hell to pay otherwise.

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  19. #44
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by FireyRei
    That politician is in no way the 'average' Japanese man, he represents a minority, period.
    No, he is not an average person, he is a respectable elderly wiseman democratically elected by maybe a million Japanese people. That is what is so worrying about it. If an average Japanese had say the same thing, it wouldn't have made the news. If people don't know who they vote for, it is hardly less worrying that the guy actually supporting gang rape.

  20. #45
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by sanada_kikyo
    I've read the majority of this thread, and I have tried to soak in every person's comments with an open mind...I think everyone is trying to understand something that unless you are Asian is very difficult to comprehend.
    If you have read the last few posts of mine, maybe you have difficulty understanding sarcam. I was just playing the devil's advocate.

    1. Asian's are not genetically predisposed to be prositutes...look at the economy, that dictates the prostitution.
    Do you mean that prostitution exists because there is a demand for it, and some women think it is a good way of making a lot of money quickly ?

    2. Japanese people are obsessed with Western Culture...they try to mimic a lot of what happans in the states...so many violent shows that air in US tv, the Japanese incorporate in their lives. Has anyone seen some of the anime that they air - I have it's uncanny.
    I don't think a majority of the Japanese are obsessed with Western culture, Many young people are, but most old people aren't. Besides, the US is NOT the same as Western culture. There are over 30 Western countries, but the US is often the exception, especially regarding morals and sexuality. See the thread How comes the US has such a high rate of teen pregnancies and divorces ?.

    Japanese women innately try to please people...we can't help it - it's part of saving face, and serving the family
    Yes, I noticed that too. Do you think that Japanese women often do think they don't really want to just to please men or serve the family ?

    4. Gang rape is not accepted anywhere...ask any rape women in Japan, they would be horrified that such a thought exists...
    Of course, it isn't. My last posts were very sarcastic. Sorry about that. Don't worry if you don't understand sacrcasm, many American people don't understand British sarcasm too, even though they speak the same language ! I was answering to nurizeko, who is British, and should understand I was not being serious.

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    I absolutely understand sarcasm...and I understood that your posts were to a point...yes, I do know that the older generation of Japanese are not following the Western trend (I'm half Japanese), and that it is the younger crowd...at least that is what this thread is geared towards right? Gang rape in the younger female population?

    Prostitution - demand? Absolutely there are women in improvished countries that will sell their bodies to feed their families...it's sickning, but they view it as a way to survive...

    in regards to whether or not the Japanese women wants to serve...again it's not a conscience occurance...maybe the older generation had that mentality (my grandmother did), but I know in the younger generation they are more liberal in thinking, yet still end up in that psuedo submissive role when they get married...it's my opinion folks...I still think that we are programmed that way...can't help it...

  22. #47
    Chiaki_Kuriyama_Fan
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    gang rape sounds sick, and is held in disregard where i come from....

  23. #48
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Who tells you that the rapist asked if she wanted ? Given the high incidence of rape simulation in Japanese porn, could it be that some women actually fantasised about being raped ? Of course there is no way to know which ones.
    First of all: Rape is sickening. The politician who made that comment about gang rape obviously has a problem. *angry*

    There are indeed people who think of rape as a fetish, and enjoy rape simulations. Both men and women. But understand that the women thinking about gang rape as something sexually arousing would probably NOT think that way about being raped for real. There's a big difference between a rape simulation, as it is a rape under 'controlled conditions' in a way, and an actual rape. Women who are 'into' rape might not want to be raped for real...

    Besides, those rape simulation porn videos are mostly directed to men...?
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  24. #49
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    I think what Ota meant, albeit without any tact, is that at least a rapist made the effort to have sex and did it. And a lot of Japanese men simply are not. Condom sales have dropped dramatically over the years and not just because of the pill. I've even read about an ad urging young people to not be adverse to sex. A lot of men aren't having sex with their wives. The number of children per household is decreasing. Women are putting off marriage. This all ties in with the record low birth rate problem that so many politicians and sociologists are alarmed at.

    My impression is that a lot of women are putting off marriage because they want to keep their jobs and make their own money. They don't want to be housewives and deal with poor relationships with a husband, even if they could freeload off of one. They want their own lives and not have to sacrifice for the husband and kids. Also Japanese men just don't pursue women as vehemently as many men in the west (or China even). My friend visiting Japan remarked that while she always got a hoot and a holler occassionally here in the states when she visited Japan, no one voiced their admiration for her good looks. Of course that's not a tactful way to approach a woman anyway, but in general I hear that Japanese men don't like to bother with wooing a Japanese princess after a hard day's work (he's got lots of porn alleviate his suffering). Well something's got to change or else Japan will be in even dire straits.

    I'd also like to add that rape shouldn't ever be encouraged even if the government does desperately want people to have more sex and more chances to procreate. Rape is a show of force and dominance that make sick people feel better about themselves. It blights the life of the victim. Women who conceive because of rape usually get abortions anyway, any sane, prochoice one, so I don't know why Ota even mentioned it.
    Last edited by A.A. Lee; Apr 15, 2005 at 08:13.

  25. #50
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by isayhello
    Besides, those rape simulation porn videos are mostly directed to men...?
    Like all porn, but also made by women. Who would do such videos if they did not agree (even unconsciously) that it could incite some men to fantasised about rape, and that even themselves could possibly be raped for real by one of the people who watched the video then met them in the street ? They are weird and dangerous people everywhere. Women who do porn movies with rape simulation are either not afraid of being raped for real, or very irresponsible.

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