Is Japan partly responsible for the Chinese invasion of Tibet ?

[Maciamo]

Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931, then Eastern China from 1937. The Japanese claimed that they were liberating China from the Western Imperialists, but in fact plundered the country and massacred civilians. Mao Zedong was already the leader of the Chinese Communist Party when this happened (since 1935), and probably learnt his lessons. From 1949, Mao had full control over China, and in 1950, his People's Liberation Army entered the Tibet to "liberate them from the tyranny of the Dalai-Lama and protect Tibet from Western Imperialists", but they plundered the country and massacred civilians. The message was the same, the actions were the same. So, did the Japanese invasion of China influenced Communist China in its dealings with Tibet ?

I believe so. Naturally, humans have always influenced each others throughout history. Japan's colonialism was influenced by Western colonialism. Mao and his early Communist followers were influenced by the Soviets, themselves influenced by Marx and Engels' writings, etc. The world is only the result of unlimited influences. But from where did the Chinese under Mao get their influence in the way they treated Tibet if not from their Eastern neighbours, the Japanese ?

[ludoNL]

I think they may have had some influence, but there are too many factors that can influence a country; so I don't think Japan can be blaimed for this directly.

[twinklestar]

Absolutely NOT,Tibet question is two-fold.


Tibet's historic ties to Qing Dynasty's Manchu Royal House of Aisin-Giron with earlier emperors practiced Tibetan Llama religious beliefs and there was a gentlemen agreement on Tibet's acceptance of China's position as " Mandate of Heaven " during this Chinese dynastic period.

British military meddlings in the territory through it's colonial stronghold in the India sub-continent traced back to later decades of Qing Dynasty before Manchu Empire collapsed in 1910.

LOL,Tibet is a deep hole with very little resources and many non-natives can't live under such high-altitude levels.That place is a loss cause for China,Beijing pours millions and billion into Tibet.

[Maciamo]

Absolutely NOT,Tibet question is two-fold.
Tibet's historic ties to Qing Dynasty's Manchu Royal House of Aisin-Giron with earlier emperors practiced Tibetan Llama religious beliefs and there was a gentlemen agreement on Tibet's acceptance of China's position as " Mandate of Heaven " during this Chinese dynastic period.

So what ? Japan imported its Buddhism from China, as well as most of its traditional culture. This only reinforces the connection between the relation Japan-China and China-Tibet. What's more, DNA tests have shown the the Tibetans were genetically closer to the Japanese than to the Chinese.

British military meddlings in the territory through it's colonial stronghold in the India sub-continent traced back to later decades of Qing Dynasty before Manchu Empire collapsed in 1910.

British presence in China was mostly limited to Hong Kong and Shanghai. China was never a colony of the West, neither were Japan or Tibet. What is your point ?

LOL,Tibet is a deep hole with very little resources and many non-natives can't live under such high-altitude levels.That place is a loss cause for China,Beijing pours millions and billion into Tibet.

OK (so what ?)

[nurizeko]

At this Rate Maciamo we could link tibet with the Norman invasion of England or any other invasion.

[Maciamo]

At this Rate Maciamo we could link tibet with the Norman invasion of England or any other invasion.

I am listening what is your theory ? This surely takes more steps than Japan's invasion of China, repeated only 13 years later in Tibet by the same Chinese who had endured the Japanese invasion with the same official arguments for invading them. Have you ever seen the film Kundun (the life of the current Dalai-Lama until his exile to India after the Chinese invasion) ? It is while wacthing it that it dawned on me that the Chinese propaganda was too similar to the one that Imperial Japan used to occupy East Asia to be just a coincidence. For you need to have a good knowledge of WWII in East Asia, then watch Kundun, then tell me your opinion again.

[nurizeko]

I dont have a theory, my point is you dont either.
Mao might have remembered a Few Japanese tactics he remembered from the Japanese invasion (though how much tactics are required to crush and subjigate a sparesly populated peaceful nation when you have one of the largest armies on earth?) but Japan ultimately had no say or effect over Mao's urge to occupy Tibet and subjigate it.
China has long considored Tibet part of China, even if for many lengths of time it was independent in reality.
China would have invaded and occupied Mongolia if it wasnt a communist state strongly allied to the soviet union.
The Japanese invasions gave the kinda chaos that no doubt helped mao in the long run for his bid to be leader of a communist China, but nah, they didnt cause any invasion of Tibet.
WW2 changed the world if thats what you mean, but no, no direct or even real indirect imput by the Japanese.
If we all thought like that we could blame Japan for the asian tsunami.
Why?
Because the word Tsunami is Japanese.

Have you ever seen the film Kundun

I try and make a habit of basing my knowledge of history and important things on reputable academic sources rather then "a good movie".
However, for entertainment purpouses I will gladly watch the movie for you and get back to you with my criticisms and thoughts on the movie as a vehicle for entertainment and emotional/ethical lessons.
I find Movies less fit for purpouse of education then more fit for conveying a message or lesson about emotion and morals.
Interesting theory though, keep up the good work with new threads, someone has to post something worth discussing.
Edit: It occured to me to possibly be a bit rude to leave the thread without myself providing a movie Wiki link aswell.
I found I enjoyed this particular movie myself, its up to you to decide if you appriciate it.
Wiki Link

[pipokun]

Japan=>Mao=>Maoists in Europe=>The cold war ended=>RER/metro on strike=>Japanese tourists are at a loss=>Korean tourists demand reparation not from RER, but from Japan Railway company
continued...

[Nicholas0016]

Can somone please educate me on this event?

[Maciamo]

Japan=>Mao=>Maoists in Europe=>The cold war ended=>RER/metro on strike=>Japanese tourists are at a loss=>Korean tourists demand reparation not from RER, but from Japan Railway company
continued...

Maoists in Europe ? Who ?

What is the connection between the end of the cold war and RER strikes ?

[bexchurnside]

Japan invaded Manchuria in 1931, then Eastern China from 1937. The Japanese claimed that they were liberating China from the Western Imperialists, but in fact plundered the country and massacred civilians. Mao Zedong was already the leader of the Chinese Communist Party when this happened (since 1935), and probably learnt his lessons. From 1949, Mao had full control over China, and in 1950, his People's Liberation Army entered the Tibet to "liberate them from the tyranny of the Dalai-Lama and protect Tibet from Western Imperialists", but they plundered the country and massacred civilians. The message was the same, the actions were the same. So, did the Japanese invasion of China influenced Communist China in its dealings with Tibet ?
I believe so. Naturally, humans have always influenced each others throughout history. Japan's colonialism was influenced by Western colonialism. Mao and his early Communist followers were influenced by the Soviets, themselves influenced by Marx and Engels' writings, etc. The world is only the result of unlimited influences. But from where did the Chinese under Mao get their influence in the way they treated Tibet if not from their Eastern neighbours, the Japanese ?

I wish to tell you that His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a Canadian Citizen, and as such sworn allegance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. And I regard him as a Canadian!!

[Maciamo]

I wish to tell you that His Holiness the 14th Dalai Lama is a Canadian Citizen, and as such sworn allegance to Her Majesty Queen Elizabeth II. And I regard him as a Canadian!!

OK, so what ?

Little rectification, he is an honorary citizen of Canada, the same way that Robert De Niro is an honorary citizen of Italy but is first and foremost American. The Dalai Lama's main country of residence is India.

[caster51]

So, did the Japanese invasion of China influenced Communist China in its dealings with Tibet ?

I dony know...
However,
according to chinese history, Whenever the political powers or dynasty changed in China, the massacres were done.
It might be responsible in Japan that he obtained the political power bacause japan lost....
USA also helped Mao......
MAo said " have talked to my Japanese friends. They said, 'We are sorry, the Imperial Japanese army invaded China.' I told them, 'No! If your Imperial army did not occupy half of China, the people of China would not have united against you, and the Chinese Communist Party will not be in power today"
The slaughter in Tibet is still continued today.
Did we emphasize and criticize china while you criticize japan?
You and I are responsible of that, too.

[caster51]

If it is a responsibility of Japan, it is responsibility of the people in Japan.

The responsibility cannot be pressed against persons who are called wAR criminal.

[bexchurnside]

OK, so what ?
Little rectification, he is an honorary citizen of Canada, the same way that Robert De Niro is an honorary citizen of Italy but is first and foremost American. The Dalai Lama's main country of residence is India.

So does Dalai Lama not have the right to exercise his rights to live in Vancouver, BC and live at the Dalai Lama Center for World Peace, if situations become rough for him in India?

Now, Maciamo, I want to ask you Is Gelugpa Madhyamika really Prasangika Madhyamika, and not Svantantrika? It is a wonderful arguement by Alexander Berzin on Berzin Archives.

How do the Japanese view the laity receiving the Abhisheka of the Mahavairocana Mandala in Japan by His Holiness Dalai Lama? I heard that the Shingon sect keeps Vajrayana intiations only to the clergy.

I am wondering also why is it that Tibetan Buddhism gained more prominence in Europe and North America than it has in Japan? Taiwan and even communist China, who the latter should be having the least, became more deeply rooted in Vajrayana practices?

I dony know...
However,
according to chinese history, Whenever the political powers or dynasty changed in China, the massacres were done.
It might be responsible in Japan that he obtained the political power bacause japan lost....
USA also helped Mao......
MAo said " have talked to my Japanese friends. They said, 'We are sorry, the Imperial Japanese army invaded China.' I told them, 'No! If your Imperial army did not occupy half of China, the people of China would not have united against you, and the Chinese Communist Party will not be in power today"
The slaughter in Tibet is still continued today.
Did we emphasize and criticize china while you criticize japan?
You and I are responsible of that, too.

Wow, I am somewhat knowledgable of Tibetan Buddhism myself, but I had no idea, and neither does the world ever think that Japan and issues around Tibetan Buddhism have anything to do with each other!

I think if you are right, a doctoral thesis could be done on such a topic! Please tell me more about this. Feel free to tell me via PM if you don't want to open an unnecessary can of worms on this forum.

[pipokun]

Maoists in Europe ? Who ?
What is the connection between the end of the cold war and RER strikes ?

The first story is that it blows.
*snip*
And in the end, Okeya, a cooper, makes money.

I don't know which is more reasonable, wind-cooper story or your Japan-Maoism, though there still remains ideological dinosaurs here.

[twinklestar]

LOL It was America's CIA covert activities in this Chinese territory prompted the Chinese Reds ightfully and divinely to militarily intervened against American imperial meddlings during 1950's anti-Communist Cold War.


KMT's Chiang Kai-Sheik would've committed the same approach in keeping Tibet as integral part of greater Unified China.We are taught China is make up of 5 major Asian Mongoloid ethnic groups Han Manchu Mongol Hui ( Muslims ) Tibetan,plus other minorities.


Dalai Llama is a pawn of American and British imperial meddling into China's internal affairs,what a shame.By the way,he is NOT welcomed on China's soil.

[Kang Seung Jae]

If there was such an influence, it is nothing compared to the historical "legacy" of the Qing Dynasty.


Although yes, if we go back to Japanese Imperialism, it does connect, since the PRC bases its "multiethnic united country" ideology on Sun's "Five Races Under One Union", which was the result of Japanese aggression in the early 20th century.

[caster51]

Japan 's invasion to China led to CCP 's arise,(otherwise CCP would be dead under Nationalist),CCP 's arise leads to China's arise currently.So Japan factor is a crucial one in China's arise worldwide.

Japan was really afraid of Commies...
why did not USA Know what commies was?

Another aspect of Japan's invasion to Manshuria
Manchuria


apan’s security policy until recently has been similar to that she followed after the grand bargains struck at the Washington Conference of 1921-22, in which China came to the international table for the first time as a full equal and saw her territorial grievances, notably in Shandong, remedied, the presumption being that she had now become a fully-fledged and responsible international player, while at the same time Japan was forced to abandon her bilateral alliance with Britain, in return for promises of consultation among the Powers should conflict emerge, and multilateral security (i.e. everyone agrees to protect everyone else) in place of the tangible tie to London. Japan then planned for peace guaranteed by a concert of Asia.

Of course things did not work out as planned: within ten years of the end of the Conference (to this date still the most comprehensive and thorough attempt to deal with Asian issues) Japanese troops had occupied Manchuria and were menacing China. The outbreak of the full Pacific War, ended only with nuclear weapons, was only five years away.

Something had gone terribly wrong; something that should be noted very well today. Some historians have argued that blame for Japan’s new aggressive policies was to be found in internal developments: hunger, economic down turn, autocracy, eventually the Japanese version of fascism—an argument that, whatever its merits for explaining the 1920s and 1930s is clearly irrelevant to the solidly constitutional Japan of today. So perhaps we should listen to other historians, less well known than those who concentrate on Japanese domestic history, stressing instead a series of completely unexpected developments in the region that even the most liberal Japanese leaders saw as threatening to their country’s security.

Most important of these was a strong but erratically guided rise of Chinese power that saw that country’s government, goading and reacting to the resentments of her people, flout many of the undertakings she had made at Washington. Almost simultaneously came political splits and then civil wars in a China that at the time of the Conference had seemed politically stable and set on a course of peaceful economic development. These wars threatened continental interests that Tokyo considered vital, and when the allies who had promised at Washington to consult on such threats and act to protect legitimate interests failed to do so, Japan attempted to do so herself—in a catastrophic way that saw both democracy and millions of Japanese people perish.Japan Emerges

http://www.strategycenter.net/resear...ub_detail.asp#

[tokapi]

Japan was really afraid of Commies...

I don't think so

JCP have been a legitimate political party cultivated social reforms through activism whereas the revolutionary CCP rallied peasantry uprising against aristocratic establishment in China.

* Japanese Communist Party

http://www.jcp.or.jp/english/23rd_congress/program.html

[GodEmperorLeto]

Chinese "imperialism" is more of an example of "manifest destiny" than a sort of infinitely expansionist ideal. The idea is that each dynasty (including the present government, which I sometimes jokingly refer to as the "Mao Dynasty") will strive for suzerainty over a specific area. This is why successive dynasties will usually fill in the same borders on the map that the Qin/Han dynasties did. The invasion of Tibet is an extension of that. Although never directly ruled by China before the nineteenth century, Tibet has become a part of China's manifest destiny, and the current government will seek to encompass all the lands that it deems within that sphere of Chinese suzerainty.

In other words, in my opinion, Japan has little to do with causing the Chinese invasion of Tibet. Indeed, the Japanese "model" for invasion/occupation (if you can call it a "model") has only been halfheartedly adhered to throughout China's occupation of Tibet.

[hungtakwai]

I am from Hong Kong and I am thus so familiar of how the British rule over my home in the pass 100 years. The British, in fact, did not turn the whole China to her colony like India but only Hong Kong and a very little part of Shanghai before the WWII.
As for problem of Tibet, it is so different from the Japanese Invasion in the Manchuria and northeast China at that period.
First of all, Tibet was under Chinese's rule since the Ming Dynasty, although not direct rule, it is nominally under the control of the Chinese Empire. In the Qing Dynasty, the relationship between Dalai Lama (not today's) was very close to the Manchurian rulers of the Empire. Many Historians stated that it was the pirvate agenda of the Manchurain (the Royal family of Qing Empire) to separate the Hans, Mongolians, Tibet people, Muslisms, and other races of the Southwest areas of the empire in order to mandate the whole nation.
However, the Manchu, the Northeast provinces of China was not Japanese places afterall. The 2 issues were so differernt.
Besides, President Mao, although he had brought disasters to China, did not emphasize in the open of Tibet. He had so much to due with already, Tibet was actually under PRC's controll in the very begining of the Mao's period.
Another evidence to show Tibet was under China's controll was that Dalai Lama the 13th had claimed to respect the central government of China in 1933 by himself. He had given up Tibet's independent already before the establish of PRC. As the Lama said, he was actually the same person. The Dalai lama was transferring from one body to another, so, he got to admit his declaration of giving up independent.

Chinese "imperialism" is more of an example of "manifest destiny" than a sort of infinitely expansionist ideal. The idea is that each dynasty (including the present government, which I sometimes jokingly refer to as the "Mao Dynasty") will strive for suzerainty over a specific area. This is why successive dynasties will usually fill in the same borders on the map that the Qin/Han dynasties did. The invasion of Tibet is an extension of that. Although never directly ruled by China before the nineteenth century, Tibet has become a part of China's manifest destiny, and the current government will seek to encompass all the lands that it deems within that sphere of Chinese suzerainty.

In other words, in my opinion, Japan has little to do with causing the Chinese invasion of Tibet. Indeed, the Japanese "model" for invasion/occupation (if you can call it a "model") has only been halfheartedly adhered to throughout China's occupation of Tibet.

It is already not the "Mao Dynasty" there had been "Deng Dynasty", "Jiang Dynasty" and now the "Wu-Wan Dynasty"

[newd]

Japanese and Tibetans are very close ethnic groups.

[grapefruit]

First of all, Tibet was under Chinese's rule since the Ming Dynasty, although not direct rule, it is nominally under the control of the Chinese Empire. In the Qing Dynasty, the relationship between Dalai Lama (not today's) was very close to the Manchurian rulers of the Empire. Many Historians stated that it was the pirvate agenda of the Manchurain (the Royal family of Qing Empire) to separate the Hans, Mongolians, Tibet people, Muslisms, and other races of the Southwest areas of the empire in order to mandate the whole nation.

Does it mean Korea could be also claimed by China?

[hungtakwai]

Does it mean Korea could be also claimed by China?

That's differnet. The Qing Empire did not send officiers to Korea, but Tibet