I am a Chinese and I have belief but have no religion belief.
From my point of view ,I have a word on the 3 major religions in the world:Buddhism,Christianism, and Moslemism. maybe I am not correct ,just say out...
If you want to rule people, you had better impose Buddhism;
If you want to invad others, you had better impose Christianism;
If you want to destroy all, you had better impose Moslemism;
Untrue.If you want to rule people, you had better impose Buddhism;
Untrue, and i take that as an insult.If you want to invad others, you had better impose Christianism;
Not true. I know a few muslims that disagree wtih the campaign agaisnt israel.If you want to destroy all, you had better impose Moslemism;
And you forgot atheism. It's notorious for slandering religons. Not all do, but it is notorious for it.
A person from China complaining about religion...? This is official Chinese propoganda, and we need to stand up against it.
The Chinese Communists have thrown out all religion, and one result is that an entire generation of Chinese people are living without religious morals. The post above is the unfortunate result of that.
The Chinese government is also on the road to destroying the morals of the people.
http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/5-10-2/32859.html
Tada yori, takai mono wa nai.
"There is no such thing as a free lunch."
Chinese official propoganda? lol....Originally Posted by Buntaro
Do you know in the past 3000 years China had no preponderant religion but did have well morals? Chinese living in Han,Tang or Qing dynasty must also think so because we are Chinese.
Communists are atheists but not all atheists are communists!
Someone from California, talking about morals.
Take a hard long look at where you are.
In general chinese famlies care for their elderly and the grandparents take care of the grandchildren so parents can work.
They eat together the first base of morals to eat and be with your own family.
In urban over zone California, not really the soap box to be standing on to discuss morals or is this post the result of the general double morals of the US. people with their 60 million who cannnot read and write.
Who is notorious? atheism or theism?
Atheism have no idea about Boanerges and paganism.
Boanerges are notorious for diffusing something blithering.
Paganism have taken human rights from others.
and more, atheism is the ancestor of theism.
Well, the post was obviously in the wrong forum, and if it's specifically to promote propoganda from (or in) China, perhaps it should be in china's boards.
Good point. Thread moved.
BTW there are more than three major religions in the world.
What about Hindism, Judaism, Humanists, Jains, Shinto, Confucian, Taoism?
You obviously know nothing about religion. Try reading about their history, beliefs and followings before making such a brief and sweeping statements. Just to let you know I'm an atheist.
Is living without religious morals really a bad thing? You don't need religion to live with a high standard of morals
I've seen things you people wouldn't believe...Remember the Siruis Cybernetic Corportations motto: Share and Enjoy
Almost all (if not all) morals that people have today can trace their roots back to religon, so without religous morals, we'd probably be incapable of having a civilization. Though, i am not saying you have to have a religon, i'm just saying that religous morals are what founded civilization.
Keep your eyes on America, it's starting to go athiest too. They're getting pretty bad too... sometimes i'm just ashamed of my own country for the anti-religous slander.Sad thing is, lots of Chinese think like him. They just don't know any better
Um.. What's wrong with atheism?
Yes but, atheists have not reason for their morals.
This is an old post so maybe not worth commenting on, but I read Mycernius's post where he says he is an atheist and thinks you don't need religion to live with a high standard of morals.
That is no doubt true. However, I wonder where his high standard of morality comes from. And if the next person does not have a high standard of morality, you are stuck. There is nothing you can do or say about it is there? If there is no absolute standard of morality imposed from an eternal God, then in the end, it doesn't really matter how we live our lives. When we die there is no judgment. So some may choose to live what we would call "moral lives" from a religious viewpoint while others may choose to live a very immoral life. If there is no judgment when we die, if there is no God to bring moral justice to bear on humans after death, then outside of personal desire, there is no real reason to live a moral life. Some may choose to do so and others are just as free to choose not to do so. You cannot say that any one particular way of life is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. It is just a matter of personal opinion and choice.
However, it is interesting though that Mycernius seems to think it is good to live a "moral life" though, whatever he means by a moral life. I wonder why he thinks that. Could it be because God wrote His moral code on our hearts when He created us? Could it be that our consciences are given to us by God to reflect His laws?
I wonder why he thinks his way of living is better than someone who chooses not to live according to his particular idea of what "high moral standards" are. How do we define what high moral standards are anyway? Is his idea of high moral standards really right? How do we know? I guess it would come down to personal opinion wouldn't it.
In other words, an atheist cannot justify his ideas of morality. That means that Hitler's morality is no better or no worse than his. To say his morality is better would be a bit arrogant. Who is to say that the chemical processes in his brain are more accurate than the chemical processes in Hitler's brain that produced Hitler's brand of morality? Does might make right? Why or why not? When it comes down to it, we have to admit that there cannot be any ultimate right and wrong in an atheistic worldview.
So if Mycernius lived in Hitler's time and his parents were taken to the gas chambers, he could not say it is wrong, at least in the ultimate sense of the word.(since that kind of morality cannot exist in a world without a God who is over humans.) He could say that he doesn't think it is right. Or that he doesn't like it. Or that it used to be illegal.(At that point it was not illegal.) After the war, the courts also agreed with him that it was wrong, but still that is only a human viewpoint and there is no ultimate punishment for Hitler. If he would have won the war, he would have gotten away with it. Many murderers get away with their crime. How utterly unfair if there will never be any ultimate justice.
Our hearts cry for justice in this world. Why? Why is justice better than injustice? Why is love any better than hate? Why is honesty any better than dishonesty? The biblical answer is that God Himself is just, honest, and love. Morality is defined by the character of God himself. If there is no god, no one can definitively say that love is better than hate, honesty than dishonesty, or justice than injustice. It all comes down to a matter of personal opinion - personal taste.
However, even if it was something that was not illegal, I'm sure Mycernius would cry foul if someone with a low view of morality treated him in an unjust way. But that is not possible in his worldview. He would be making amoral judgment that his worldview does not permit. We can't have it both ways. Atheists want to borrow the idea of morals from the Bible without having to deal with the God who established those morals. But you cannot separate these two. And anyway, why would you want to? A God who encourages this kind of moral life cannot be a bad guy, can He? Either there is a God who established ultimate morality and wrote his laws on our hearts as Romans 2: 14,15 says, or there is no such god. If that is the case, in the end, it doesn't really matter how we live our lives. Free? Oh yes. Wonderfully free. But this type of freedom comes at an unforgivable price. It forces us to admit that our lives are meaningless. And no one can live life if they really think that life is meaningless. If there is no judgment after death, no justice, no ultimate morality, no ultimate rules we must follow, it follows that it doesn't matter how we live our lives in the ultimate sense. One chooses to be "good" and one chooses to be "bad"(These terms are meaningless because there is no ultimate standard to define them). So you are free to live however you want. There is no god to whom you have to be responsible to. Go ahead and live it up! What wonderful freedom?! I can live my life however I want to. I can have sex with my neighbor's wife if I want to. But I don't want my neighbor to have sex with my wife that's for sure. I don't want him to infringe on my life. He is not free to live however he wants to. I want him to respect my property. I want him to be kind to me. I want him to treat my children with respect. No way Jose! I don't want him to live his life however he wants to if it infringes on my freedom.
But then you need to be careful not to infringe on other's freedom.
Hmm. Seems like we have a bit of an inconsistency here. I want to live my life however I want to. I don't need God to live a moral life. But I don't want others to live as if they are free if it infringes on me. Can't have it both ways, can we?
What happens if your neighbor does treat you with disrespect and make life miserable for you? Is he doing something wrong? No, because there is no ultimate right or wrong. Hmm. It seems that this kind of idea is one that doesn't really work in real life. You can't live by atheistic standards unless you impose restrictions on others. But who are you to impose restrictions on others. They are not binding. You don't have authority. This is where you need God. So if you can't live in harmony with your worldview, what good is it? I wonder if it is really true or not.
thoughts to ponder
tj
I take it your religious from that rather long post. I have had this canard come up no end of times from theists, "Atheists are immoral, atheists are ammoral. You need religion for your morals. God/religion is where morals come from". There are the typical quote from the bible. "The bible says it true, so it must be true because it is in the bible" This is called circular reasoning. Plus the bible says a lot of things that are not so nice. Other logical fallacies you have shown are strawmen and false fallacies, but I will address some of the issues.
Point one: Morals come from society, not from some holy book. If you really want to look at biblical morals then by all means try and show they are good. Like most theists you will miss out all the bad ones, or say Jesus changed the OT rules.
Point two: If you look through societies around the world murder, stealing and general unpleasantness are not tolerated. This points more to something within humans that something divinely inspired. After all only one third of the planet is christian, which rather points that christian god isn't the one that put morals on everyone, or allah, vishnu, insert deity here.
Point three: If we look back through history on the people in the church we don't exactly see paragons of virtue. Corruption, lying, stealing, threatening violence, doing violence, condoning murder, commiting murder, manipulation for their own power. Some of this still goes on from the so called morally religious.
Point four, and the most important: This thread is not for this, but for your type of religious belief. So keep it on topic.
This type of thinking that people do not behave morally without threat or reward from God sounds most scaring to more secularly oriented people. Does that mean that you would behave immorally if there was no God? If that was really true, then I would trust morals of atheists. After all, one could stop believing in God. When that day arrived, I would not want to be close to a religious person, if what you are saying was true.
As Mycernius pointed out, I also believe moral standards are shaped by society. They are not a matter of personal opinion. I like to live morally because I don’t want to be branded as immoral by other members of the community where I belong.When we die there is no judgment. So some may choose to live what we would call "moral lives" from a religious viewpoint while others may choose to live a very immoral life. If there is no judgment when we die, if there is no God to bring moral justice to bear on humans after death, then outside of personal desire, there is no real reason to live a moral life. Some may choose to do so and others are just as free to choose not to do so. You cannot say that any one particular way of life is right or wrong, good or bad, moral or immoral. It is just a matter of personal opinion and choice.
Moral standards change as society evolves. Nobody said anything about slaving long time ago.In other words, an atheist cannot justify his ideas of morality. That means that Hitler's morality is no better or no worse than his. To say his morality is better would be a bit arrogant. Who is to say that the chemical processes in his brain are more accurate than the chemical processes in Hitler's brain that produced Hitler's brand of morality? Does might make right? Why or why not? When it comes down to it, we have to admit that there cannot be any ultimate right and wrong in an atheistic worldview.
Sad thing is, lots of Chinese think like him. They just don't know any better
~ Parempi hullu kuin tylsä - Better crazy than boring ~
http://www.fin-style.be/blog -> My Blog about Finland and other random thingies.
I have nothing wrong with athiesm, but i'm stating that there are alot of athiests just like this chinese guy out there. Not all of them are, but some are. And america's slowly becomming more and more athiest... Sad part is, some of it is by force. But the force is so slow and small that it's mostly talked about only by american tv.
Are you sure,I thought America's South has growing Christian fundamentalist movement with that Jerry Farewell as ring-leader.
TV Christianity programs are gaining popularity in recent years,but stronghold is still in the deep-south.
religion to me is another reason for somebody else to feel powerful. there are many religions (beliefs or whatever call it what you may) that were and still are being established for control. somebody needed to feel good about themselves and so they invented some off the wall brainwash.
now this is religion then there is philosophy. if you can find moral resoning through readings, of whatever scripture you read, without being consumed by somebody elses ideas then you are safe.
to me all religions are cut throat. i am not trying to offend anybody by the way. but i say what i want so that's that.
anyway, it seems like any religions you choose to follow you will be condmend to some fireiy abyss. so why stress the confusion.
i am a firm believer and follower of ones own ideas. no hell comes form that except the persecution one may face simply because they have stepped outside the bounds and is looking for their own inner strength, without giving something else credit that did not actually make them feel like they have accomplished something.
is religious concepts really manifest?
[===={''''//''''//''''//''''//''''}--------
Ai Shi Te Ru. Ish Libe Dish. Lu'Bim Ta. Ti Amo.
.Je T'aime. Ja Kocham Ciebie. Wo Ai Ni .Volim Te .Te Ubsec
.I love you.
Only non-offensive, non descript or anti-religious opinions should be expressed here in my opinion. All others may result in bad karma and a sudden loss of functionality. We are all unusually happy without reason, and discussing issues from a religious perspective could be offensive to those who consider any contributions by practioners of a faith to be not only prosletyzing, but offensive.
Be very wary.
There are some mainland Chinese practice Daoism and Christianity inside China,local authorities won't bother as long as these groups focus only on teaching religious principles nothing else meaning no politics or ideology.
There are many Overseas Chinese atheists like myself truly anti-Communist at heart.
I agree with the above you said.
In fact, I don't oppose religion, I just point out some characteristics about them. I have seen Chinese goverment support Buddhism more and more. for example, last year China had celebrated "fist world Buddhism" ceremony and this year China had sent 2 buddhists to India for commemorating 玄奘.
At last, I am not an atheist,neither a theist. I have my own points on religions.
This statement should steer you away from implication of baseless suspicion working as a mouth-piece for Chinese propanganda machine.
Mainland China also brought back Confucius principles last year,let's hope PRC can rapidly revive old traditions.
Last edited by ricecake; Jul 31, 2006 at 11:58.
其实，我对宗教的态度很简单，就是老祖宗说的：敬鬼神而远之� B 估计老外听不懂吧！
translate into Enlgish:
In fact, my religions' attitude is simple. it is what our ancestor have said: respect all gods but not worship them.
Are you denying that atheism is a religon of it's own basis? Common argument is that atheism isn't a religon because it dosn't have a God. Yet, at the same time, we forget that it dosn't require a God to be a religon.Atheism have no idea about Boanerges and paganism.
Not all paganism.Paganism have taken human rights from others.
Oh right, and exactly who is to decide what is blithering and what is not?Boanerges are notorious for diffusing something blithering.
So you're saying the lack of the beleif in a religon came first? Not proven, simply because you havn't proved that any religon is incorrect. That would only be true, IF atheism is correct.and more, atheism is the ancestor of theism.
If you make people warm up to atheism, they'll warm up to comunism easier, simply because communist states have this unusual love for atheism. More and more of america becomes atheist every day. More and more laws are being ignored, including problems with the laws not being carried out. No, i am not saying atheism causes lack of morality, but since atheism has no government (such as a higher ranking being that can "know and see all") of it's own (in other words, atheism can vary amoung person to person) the care for such morals is sometimes diminished in certain individuals. So, it dosn't cause lack of morality, but it does not provide anything to combat it.Chinese official propoganda? lol....
Do you know in the past 3000 years China had no preponderant religion but did have well morals? Chinese living in Han,Tang or Qing dynasty must also think so because we are Chinese.
Communists are atheists but not all atheists are communists!
I wish more people thought like that. You don't go around hearing me call "ala" by the name "devil." Sadly, most people have no respect for any religon that isn't the same as theirs. Atheism is founded on the fact that we are to keep getting better, but people see that as only physical, not mental, so many athiests pick on religon. Many christians forget that the bible says "pick on the sin, not the sinner." Yes, that also includes harassment from all the "advertising" of the religon. Muslims often forget that their koran dosn't say anything about "72 virgins for killing yourself in the name of Ala." Now i don't know much about buddism, but i would assume that they were not funded on the beleif to look better than everyone else. The real problem is that too many people forget the ideas that come with their religon. People by nature are violet, yet cowardly people. By nature people have no morals. For instance, if you knew (without a doubt) you wouldn't be punished in any way (including STDs or dishonor of some sort) would you become a prostitute for free money and a girl random girl? You can get paid for having fun with a random girl and nothing bad would come of it at all. Dosn't that sound tempting? Well, when you eliminate the basis of all these religons (this includes atheism) you often find some of the worst people on this planet. You find prostitutes, liers, abusers, all kinds of things. No judgement? then there's no problem. People need to be reminded of the basis of their religon.In fact, my religions' attitude is simple. it is what our ancestor have said: respect all gods but not worship them.
There's actually a fundamentalist movement? Where'd you hear this? i never heard of it...Are you sure,I thought America's South has growing Christian fundamentalist movement with that Jerry Farewell as ring-leader.
I've been seeing less and less actually.. And more and more lack of moral where i live because people often use atheism as an excuse to have lack of morals. (which is where the rumor of athiests having no morals most likely came from.)TV Christianity programs are gaining popularity in recent years,but stronghold is still in the deep-south.
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