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Thread: Over 100,000 join anti-China rally in Taipei

  1. #1
    Regular Member Wang's Avatar
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    Over 100,000 join anti-China rally in Taipei

    Over 100,000 join anti-China rally in Taipei
    (Reuters)

    18 March 2006



    TAIPEI - Chanting “Oppose missiles, Want peace”, more than 100,000 supporters of Taiwan’s pro-independence President Chen Shui-bian joined a rally on Saturday to protest China’s threat to use force against the self-ruled island.


    The rally, organised by Chen’s Democratic Progressive Party (DPP), marked the first anniversary of China’s passage of the Anti-Secession Law that authorises war if Taiwan declares statehood, thereby violating Beijing’s “one China” policy.

    China and Taiwan split at the end of the Chinese civil war in 1949.

    With red balloons symbolising Chinese missiles, the DPP said the huge crowd showed the world the Taiwan people’s determination to defend a democratic way of life.

    “Taiwan is not part of China and China should stop threatening us with its missiles and with its bullets,” said Song Wen-ling, a 60-year-old retiree.

    Taipei says Beijing had accumulated nearly 800 missiles targeting the island and was adding to its arsenal at a rate of between 75-100 a year. Some security analysts say the Taiwan Strait is one of Asia’s most dangerous hot spots.

    Under sunny skies, the participants, many of who were bused in from all over the island, waved flags and held placards reading “Protect democracy, Oppose annexation”, “Love peace, Love Taiwan”. They chanted slogans and sang songs in the Taiwanese dialect.

    “Taiwan is a a democracy, whether or not we should be independent or be part of China is up to us Taiwanese. We should not submit to China bullying,” said 48-year-old engineer Lee Guo-qing.

    President Chen did not join the march to the presidential office as expected after local media reported that about 6,000-7,000 police were mobilised to ensure his safety.

    But Chen, in an emotive speech at the end of the rally, told the crowd that he stood firmly by his decision to scrap a dormant but symbolic Taiwanese body called the National Unification Council last month. The move triggered condemnation by China.

    “Taiwan is an independent, sovereign country. Taiwan’s national sovereignty belongs to its 23 million people,” said Chen, accompanied by senior government and party officials.

    “Taiwan’s national sovereignty, Taiwan’s future is not up to China’s 1.3 billion people to decide,” Chen said outside the presidential office.


    Full article.
    ‘δ˜p‹€˜a‘ Republic of Taiwan.
    Freedom for Taiwan.

  2. #2
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Already read it, but good find.

    It seems increasingly likely taiwanese wont accept reunification under any conditions now, unless civil war in taiwan is an acceptable price.

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    Spring is DPP's oestrum ,(Chen’s Democratic Progressive Party)
    judge over~!

    The crowd all belong to the DPP.

    “Oppose missiles, Want peace” yes,I believe the missile's bull's-eye won't be Chinese and the land of China.

    What deter most Taiwanese from joining China is the lack of democracy in China.

    I believe the best way to settle Taiwan issue is more democracy in mainland China .

  4. #4
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Those in the rally are likely part of the pro-independence, DPP supporting side as opposed to that of pro-unification and KMT.

    In all realism as the KMT have also acknowledged, the tiny little island won't be able to win against the giant. In the event of such a civil war, a single missile from China to Taiwan would suffice, whereas Taiwan would have to aim for Hong Kong, Shanghai and Beijing.

    Quote Originally Posted by 4321go
    What deter most Taiwanese from joining China is the lack of democracy in China.
    In addition to democracy, there are many others: human rights, freedoms, political policies, wealth etc.

  5. #5
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Like what Supevin said, anti-China setiment in Taiwan has its roots in many origins. From my experience interacting with Chinese, most of them view the problem as a extension of the civil war between CCP and KMT. However, from some Taiwanese point of view, CCP and KMT are the same to them, they are all Chinese. This is a common peception held by elder Taiwanese who had Japanese education. Taiwanese and Japanese are the only two languages they know, China is a blur and distant image for which they cannot relate to personally.

    Most of them are from southern and central part of Taiwan whose ancestors have been living for hundreds of years. They are simple and straight people who are just looking for a sense of identity from years of colonization by the Japanese and Chinese. Politics and economy does not come to play in their mind, it's their love for the land and people that's driving them. They are the ones who will attend every pro-Taiwan rally and always participate with enthusiaism. They are a fading generation who has gone through most of their lives treated as second class citizen by the Japanese and Chinese. It is in this last stage of their lives that they are feeling being respected.

    My grandma is a typical example of that generation. She is used not to express her feeling openly due to years of oppression by the Japanese and the Chinese. She had very low self-esteem when it comes to identifying herself as Taiwanese. When I was visiting her two years ago, I saw a small rally flag in her room and asked her about it. She was really shy about it. Also she never told anyone who she's going to vote for but we saw her secretly practicing how to vote by identfying the candidate's picture because she is illiterate. She might not know much about how politics and economics work but she does know one thing: her love for Taiwan and its people. It's just as simple as that. You don't need a reason to love yourself.

  6. #6
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Here are some pictures from the rally.

    Picture 2 and 3 show elderly Taiwanese women with proper, straight sitting posture which is evident of Japanese education which emphasized alot on proper sitting posture. This really showed the disciplinary nature of Japanese education. (myself is 26 and I can't even maintain a proper sitting posture for more than 5min!).
    Attached Images Attached Images
    • File Type: jpg 1.jpg (178.7 KB, 10 views)
    • File Type: jpg 2.jpg (73.1 KB, 11 views)
    • File Type: jpg 3.jpg (55.4 KB, 9 views)
    • File Type: jpg 4.jpg (54.5 KB, 8 views)

  7. #7
    Happy 4321go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    It's just as simple as that. You don't need a reason to love yourself.

    Um~Love yourself should't being the reason of become the traitor.
    Taiwan's return will surely accelerate China's grow up . I can't tell there will be any harmful result for Taiwan People .I know quite clearly that it will harm the leader of Taiwan,for the status drop. The status of president is self-given,nomarch instead of president after Taiwan return.
    So ,Taiwan's leader don't want return .


    Don't you think Taiwan People will live more better when Taiwan return?
    Don't you think Taiwan's return will accelerate China's grow up?

  8. #8
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4321go
    Don't you think Taiwan People will live more better when Taiwan return?
    Don't you think Taiwan's return will accelerate China's grow up?
    Answer to your first question:
    No, we're already having too much trouble with Chinese illegal immigrants and I can't imagine what will happen if we open our boarder wide open to 1.3billion Chinese who will do anything (yes anything) for a better living.

    Answer to second question:
    Why should Taiwanese people care about Chinese? I mean yeah sure we're neighbors and neighbors should look out for each other but where do you draw the line? I don't mean to sound cold-blooded but why should I care about a starving Chinese farmer 1000miles away from me while there are Taiwanese families barely getting by their lives?

    To be honest with you the primary reason why I am so opposed to joining China is that I am worried about the potential degradation of Taiwanese's people quality after unification. Now I have nothing against the Chinese personally (my gf is Chinese), I am simply stating facts.

  9. #9
    Happy 4321go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    Answer to your first question:
    No, we're already having too much trouble with Chinese illegal immigrants and I can't imagine what will happen if we open our boarder wide open to 1.3billion Chinese who will do anything (yes anything) for a better living.
    .
    hehe ,Haven't you seen the situation of HongKong? illegal immigrants ?
    yes,but after HongKong's return, the illegal immigrants issue isn't exist anymore. you should't worry about it~ Mexico 's boundary is open to the American,does that mean American destroy Mexico?
    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    Answer to second question:
    Why should Taiwanese people care about Chinese? I mean yeah sure we're neighbors and neighbors should look out for each other but where do you draw the line? I don't mean to sound cold-blooded but why should I care about a starving Chinese farmer 1000miles away from me while there are Taiwanese families barely getting by their lives?
    The feud of Taiwan Strait is an obstruction toward China's development,if this conflict being clear away,both side of Taiwan Strait will develop much faster. you always care about yourself ,don't you?so you should think of this~
    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    To be honest with you the primary reason why I am so opposed to joining China is that I am worried about the potential degradation of Taiwanese's people quality after unification. Now I have nothing against the Chinese personally (my gf is Chinese), I am simply stating facts
    Taiwanese's people quality? Do you really think the Taiwanese's people quality is priority? self-conceit is not good~
    Taiwan isn't admitted as a country by UN and any country in the world,They all think Taiwan is part of China
    Traitor is not welcomed by any country...
    Last edited by 4321go; Apr 5, 2006 at 14:20. Reason: Traitor?

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    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Give me a solid reason why I should care about the well being of China (other than moral reason, there are far more poor countries in this world that need help).

    Also, is economics all you think about? I find that a really shallow way of thinking. I don't blame you though, making money is probably the only thing on Chinese mind these days. Chinese society is sick, it needs a superb doctor to cure it.

  11. #11
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    Nope, China doesn't need the help from Taiwan! Taiwan people should look after themself~! But Taiwan people is also Chinese,both side should not enlarge the feud of Taiwan Strait !

    Development isn't only means money~ also means culture and civilization, Taiwan's culture is from China~

    Boong of Taiwan was once the real master of Taiwan~ but even the Boong of Taiwan against separate from China~ BTW,Are you (godppgo) the boong of Taiwan? I know one boong of Taiwan which is 泰雅@賽德克 人, he tell me that he hate Democratic Progressive Party and against separate from China~

  12. #12
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    So your whole argument is based on the idea that Taiwanese = Chinese, therefore Taiwanese have to suffer the same fate as Chinese.

    It's not about hating this, hating that or supporting this party or hating this party. It's about what values we have and what's important to us.

    For me, what makes a country great is its people quality. To be more specific, it's how well the people repsect and understand democratic and justice systems. I understand there's a hierarchy of human needs and Chinese are still working on the lower needs such as money/security and democracy and modern day justice system seems like a distant dream and not necessary at this moment.

    Traditional Chinese philosophies and ideas (eg. Confucius thinking) do not support the idea of having a democratic society nor a modern day justice system. Chinese people themselves for some reason still live their lives accordingly to these outdated century old rules. For whatever reason, Chinese people refuse to "update" their brain even it has been shown the old ways of thinkings just don't work well in today's world.

    Is there hope to China? I think so. But as I said, right now China is sick, really sick. It has extremely complex social/political/economical problems to deal with. Taiwanese are in the process of learning what democracy and justice system is all about. It's going to take time and it's not going to be a smooth ride. It's better Taiwan just stay out of China's turmoil and let the Chinese sort them out themselves.

  13. #13
    Happy 4321go's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    For me, what makes a country great is its people quality. To be more specific, it's how well the people repsect and understand democratic and justice systems. I understand there's a hierarchy of human needs and Chinese are still working on the lower needs such as money/security and democracy and modern day justice system seems like a distant dream and not necessary at this moment.
    Is there hope to China? I think so. But as I said, right now China is sick, really sick. It has extremely complex social/political/economical problems to deal with. Taiwanese are in the process of learning what democracy and justice system is all about. It's going to take time and it's not going to be a smooth ride. It's better Taiwan just stay out of China's turmoil and let the Chinese sort them out themselves.
    "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."--John F. Kennedy
    So,hold your confidence on your country~ There are more problems exist than you'v talked above~ but I still believe it will have a bright future~ because we young blood could do something~
    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    Traditional Chinese philosophies and ideas (eg. Confucius thinking) do not support the idea of having a democratic society nor a modern day justice system. Chinese people themselves for some reason still live their lives accordingly to these outdated century old rules. For whatever reason, Chinese people refuse to "update" their brain even it has been shown the old ways of thinkings just don't work well in today's world.
    Traditional culture? It 's a pity that not really inherit but destroy!
    Democratic society and a modern justice system? yes,that is important! can we do something for it?
    Last edited by 4321go; Apr 7, 2006 at 18:36.

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    Why China must get Taiwan?
    for its people? money? resource...? no,
    because its location is tooooooooo important in strategic.
    If China want to be a Superpower in future and challenge USA,
    China must break the so called first-island-chain. change itself
    form a continental country to a oceanic country.
    When president Bush came to power, he said that he don't allow
    any country to challange the power of USA and point 7 countries as potential aim for nuclear attack, China amid those without question
    and today USA see China as the only potential power who will be
    able to challenge them.
    So in the eyes of politician, everything seems to be quite different
    from that of ordinary people.
    I don't know any Taiwanese, and I don't have good feeling of them
    So called kindred compatriot I believe is just propaganda.
    I support communist take back Taiwan no matter peaceful mean or
    military mean.
    about feeling of Taiwanese, why we have to care if
    they don't care of the same thing of us? they were occupied for
    many times, Holand, Zhengchenggong, Qing, Japan, republic of China
    they must prepare for another conquest.
    Of course, China now is autarchy, but in future it must convert to
    democracy, so take back Taiwan, is not for today's autocratic China
    but for intending democratic China.

  15. #15
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    I am always amazed on how uniform and mechanistic Chinese's view point on Taiwan/China affair is.

    Tell me something I don't know, give me some insights and beliefs of your own. Tell me something I can't read from People Daily or CCP propaganda.

  16. #16
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4321go
    "Ask not what your country can do for you - ask what you can do for your country."--John F. Kennedy
    I think you pointed out a key reason behind China's difficulty in adopting democracy and modern justice system. Confucius ideologies emphasize a great deal about family values. From Confucius point of view, one's family is the basic building block of a nation therefore, a person should put his family first then society second and nation last. This thinking is embedded deeply in the Chinese society even to present day. As a result of this thinking, Chinese people do not see themselves responsible as a member of the society, rather they are individuals who lives accordingly to the way that gives them the best outcome as individuals. A direct consequence of the individualism nature is the lack of caring for the society as a whole.

    Have you ever been to a Chinatown in Japan or North America? If you have, then you must've noticed how dirty and un-organized the streets are. Why is that almost all Chinatown display such incoherency to the rest of the community? Itfs the disregard to the society that created such an un-organized scene.


    Note: Individualism of the Chinese is different from the individualism of the west. In the west, individualism is promoted in the sense that one has to act to be responsibly as a member of the society.

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    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    I am always amazed on how uniform and mechanistic Chinese's view point on Taiwan/China affair is.
    Tell me something I don't know, give me some insights and beliefs of your own. Tell me something I can't read from People Daily or CCP propaganda.
    My Taiwan-Japanese friend, can you find my idea on People Daily?
    You can only see smiling mask there, such as kindred compatriot
    and so on....but behind this mask is the cruel contest between big powers. the destiny of your small island always be sacrificial lamb.
    when Bush came to power, he pledged to defend Taiwan, but now,
    when China became stronger and stronger, you can see their policy
    changing delicacy(I think you can feel),
    Do you still believe USA dare to begin a war with China for Taiwan?
    It is not that time when your economy=1/3 GDP of China, now
    the figure is 1/10. if consider of purchasing power parity,
    your economy only 4% of China. even if you use all your money to
    buy weapon will not change anything.
    and the economy of the giant beside you grows more than 9% every year.......
    so time is not on you.
    As your friend, I want to tell you the truth instead of
    kindred-compatriot-propaganda.

  18. #18
    Happy 4321go's Avatar
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    Thank you for your sincere communication~
    Cruel contest between big powers make the Taiwan issue more complicated .American plays an important role in Taiwan affair .
    However ,Taiwan being part of China for more than hundreds of years,and when Japan surrender,Taiwan return .
    Taiwan affair=Interior affair . It has nothing to do with American. but as you know,we can see American everywhere~ ...
    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    I think you pointed out a key reason behind China's difficulty in adopting democracy and modern justice system. Confucius ideologies emphasize a great deal about family values. From Confucius point of view, one's family is the basic building block of a nation therefore, a person should put his family first then society second and nation last. This thinking is embedded deeply in the Chinese society even to present day. As a result of this thinking, Chinese people do not see themselves responsible as a member of the society, rather they are individuals who lives accordingly to the way that gives them the best outcome as individuals. A direct consequence of the individualism nature is the lack of caring for the society as a whole.
    Have you ever been to a Chinatown in Japan or North America? If you have, then you must've noticed how dirty and un-organized the streets are. Why is that almost all Chinatown display such incoherency to the rest of the community? Itfs the disregard to the society that created such an un-organized scene.
    Note: Individualism of the Chinese is different from the individualism of the west. In the west, individualism is promoted in the sense that one has to act to be responsibly as a member of the society.
    EŽq“Iˆκ“…Šw术‰ΒˆΘ—pˆκ‹ε话—ˆŠTŠ‡F Cg养« 齐‰ΖŽ‘‘ •½“V‰Ί BŠˆΘ’†‘l现阶’i“Iœk‘½•\现˜aEŽq“IŠw说–v—LY么关ŒnB EŽq₯œk讲‹†—η‹³“ICs论语·颜Ÿ»t:—L‹ε话:gŽŒΘ复 —η为mBˆκ“ϊŽŒΘ复—η,“V‰Ί归mΰB为m—RŒΘ,Ž§—RlŒΑ?h颜 Ÿ»žH:g请问‘΄–Ϊ?hŽqžH:g”ρ—η–ά视,”ρ—η–ά™ί,”ρ—η–άŒΎ,” ρ—η–ά动Bh EŽq毕Ά“s—Ν图‰ψ复Žό—η C‘¦Žό’©“I—η‹³˜a’˜B

    Few people in China believe Confucius ideologies, it is the key reason to Ω˜AΩ—ηAŽ©Ž„A ‹·θ₯ .
    I will discuss it more later~
    Last edited by 4321go; Apr 8, 2006 at 17:32.

  19. #19
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    gs001,

    Fair enough. The game of politics belongs to the big boys.

    As for your economy rules all statment, I cannot agree with you. As a soceity matures, it's human needs matures as well. Like I said before, there's a hierarchy of human needs and Chinese are still working for the lower needs such as money and security, which is understandable. As the society becomes more advanced, people will start looking for something else than money. Self-fullfillment or self-realization for one become the impotant element to pursue.

    To me, the real effective "weapon" China has is to have an advance culture. If you know Taiwanese mentality, you'll find that Taiwanese have a very weak sense on self-identity and low self-esteem (all due to centuries of colonization). I for one, adores western cultures and have no problem with my government adopting western ideologies. Also, the affection for Japan shown by Taiwanese is probably the greatest among all other nations in the world. Taiwanese are very flexible at absorbing and adpating new ideologies they consider to be superior than theirs.

    Of course, if you want to go back to the "China is bigger than Taiwan so China will make the call" talk then I don't see the point of continuing on with this topic.

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    I was told many many times about so called "Taiwan pathos"
    and know well of your heartbreaking history.
    As an ordinary Chinese I show my sympathy
    As for we pursue money, you pursue high hierarchy needs
    we have bad culture, you have good culture and so on....
    I believe these have nothing to do with this topic.
    The problem is China MUST take back Taiwan, it is not only for
    the interest of Chinese government but also for the interest of
    all Chinese people.
    and all the main countries in this world believe Taiwan is a part
    of China (except some tiny islands in Latin America)
    and now China have more and more power to take back Taiwan.
    So you have to try to adapt yourself to our bad culture and
    low-hierarchy needs.
    I am curious that how did you adapt yourself to Japanese
    occupation? have you ever felt any cultural conflict with them?
    and complained "self-identity and low self-esteem" to them?
    I suppose not, because your grandfather even joined Japanese
    invading army and fought against justice and be killed.
    Tell me which difference is larger, mainland vs HK or mainland vs TW?
    Maybe you need to find a better excuse for your split.
    4321go , I will be busy next week, you coutinue

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    I want to add something:
    1>there are more than 1 million Taiwanese live in mainland
    30% of them in Shanghai, what are they pursuing?
    bad culture? low-hierarchy needs?
    2>Of course you get sympathy from the world, why?
    because mainland was dominated by Communist and be regarded as
    autarchy. So the only card you can play now is democracy.
    make full use of this card, to get more interest for your island will
    be a wise choice, for if one day China becomes a democratic
    country, you will lose the last card.

  22. #22
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    The problem is China MUST take back Taiwan, it is not only for
    the interest of Chinese government but also for the interest of
    all Chinese people.
    Even if that would mean war?

    Maybe you need to find a better excuse for your split.
    The best excuse is what the people in Taiwan want. Only that counts.

  23. #23
    Happy 4321go's Avatar
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    Maybe it want do anything ~ does that counts?

    act wildly against law and public opinion?

  24. #24
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    4321go,
    Interesting interpretation on Confucius-induced behaviors. I am really skeptic when you said most Chinese do not possess Confucius thinking today. Now, obviously I am observing from the outside and I haven't stayed in China long enough to get to understand how much do average Chinese believe in Confucius thinking. Do you mind just giving some examples on how Chinese today do not act according to Confucius thinking?

    For example, how important is "human connection" in Chinese society? I think Confucius' emphasis on human connection is one of the most destructive forces for many Asian countries to become truly modernized.

  25. #25
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    Arnold J. Toynbee, 1889-1975

    You can ask it for him ~ he will tell you in his book ~~

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