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Thread: Teenagers banned from Internet cafes in China

  1. #26
    Your Goddess is here Ma Cherie's Avatar
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    I also wouldn't rule out the possibility of hackers in China. I mean, if those teens want to find out about something there will be a way for them to do it. And how effective is this so-called internet police I've been hearing about?
    "Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."
    The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
    by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)

  2. #27
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Apparently the 'Internet police' monitors all sorts of sites, from website articles to discussion forums. I would say it has been considerably effective, considering that China has spent a lot on creating and maintaining the massive firewall meaning that they can block a lot of sites at will.

    All the police have to do is warn those website owners that they have to delete certain offensive articles else the site will be blocked for those based in China.

    In the case of forums, there are police who pose as users who post a load of Government propaganda in order to 'guide' public opinion. Offensive posts are deleted very quickly, e.g those involving corruption and injustice.

    However, this is an extreme waste of money and resources; the police are paid to read and manage an insane amount of articles and forums just to monitor political views. Though that being said, the CCP couldn't care less about the cost, however large, in order to maintain their grip on power.

  3. #28
    Five times to Japan. ArmandV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by bossel
    Only by name, but not by deed.
    Tell that to the students butchered in Tiananmen Square a few years ago.

  4. #29
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    There are actually 134 million Net users in China, and counting, FYI.
    Does that count those with their own computer and own internet connection or simply anyone who can waltz into an internet cafe?

    Anyway i dont doubt the chinese government keeps a tight grip on the internet, un-checked it would lead to crazy thnigs like independent thought and progressive political philosophy and you know, the sort.

  5. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    There are actually 134 million Net users in China, and counting, FYI.
    My figure was quoted at China internet network information center(CNNIC)
    so it is more accurate.
    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandV
    Tell that to the students butchered in Tiananmen Square a few years ago.
    I myself participated in democratic movement in 1989.6.4
    But things have changed, no one interested in political struggle now,
    Today's Chinese people only fight for a wealthy life,
    such as houses, cars, and travel aboard ......
    and communist also changed a lot, if you don't take real action to overthrow communist, you will enjoy all the freedom that democratic
    country enjoy(I believe anyone who has been to China will confirm this).
    so if you want to convince an ordinary Chinese that he is under
    political suppression, he will laugh at you.

    =======
    nurizeko: you'd better live in your scottish backwater, read
    all the negative news about China and pretend that you know China
    very much.

  6. #31
    Five times to Japan. ArmandV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    But things have changed, no one interested in political struggle now

    communist also changed a lot, if you don't take real action to overthrow communist, you will enjoy all the freedom that democratic
    country enjoy

    To be honest, I think it is because the people there are too scared to do anything because they know what'll happen.

    Perhaps as the old hardliners die off, things will change for the better. I wish you well.

  7. #32
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    Quote Originally Posted by ArmandV
    To be honest, I think it is because the people there are too scared to do anything because they know what'll happen.
    Perhaps as the old hardliners die off, things will change for the better. I wish you well.
    you mean Chinese people suffer from political threat everyday?
    Your media or your government told you that?
    Chinese people now worry about unemployment, high housing price,
    high price medical treatment, high tuition fee......
    Now we can see your government's propaganda is more powerful than communist propaganda and that propaganda makes you misconstrue other country.
    Maybe that is why at all time American consider themself always right

  8. #33
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    I myself participated in democratic movement in 1989.6.4
    As far as I'm concerned, the people who took part in June 4th have had a taste of brutal suppression by the CCP through witnessing or falling victim to it. It seems that you aren't in the slightest way affected by it, which makes your claim dubious.

    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    But things have changed, no one interested in political struggle now,
    Today's Chinese people only fight for a wealthy life,
    such as houses, cars, and travel aboard ......
    Tell that do the peasants and villagers who have undergone substantial injustice due to frequent corruption, who then get beaten and dragged away when they come all the way to Beijing to report their case.

    Tell that to those who come in conflict with Party officials only to be suppressed either by violence or have their livelihoods taken away.

    People are not 'interested', because they are powerless under this authoritarian regime.

    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    and communist also changed a lot, if you don't take real action to overthrow communist, you will enjoy all the freedom that democratic
    country enjoy(I believe anyone who has been to China will confirm this).
    so if you want to convince an ordinary Chinese that he is under
    political suppression, he will laugh at you.
    How have the Government changed a lot in any way of managing things? Corruption is still rampant. Justice is still not being served to people who bring claims - those who have money or Party connections get their way. There is still a great lack of human rights, not to mention torture is still being used often.

    And when the heck have people ever enjoyed freedoms like democracy? If they have, then they should have elected their Prime Minister.

    It seems that you haven't the slightest clue on political matters in China. But hey, how can you possibly know, when you have State-controlled television, State-controlled newspapers and State-controlled propaganda?

  9. #34
    Five times to Japan. ArmandV's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    As far as I'm concerned, the people who took part in June 4th have had a taste of brutal suppression by the CCP through witnessing or falling victim to it. It seems that you aren't in the slightest way affected by it, which makes your claim dubious.

    You're right. He does seem too nonchalant about June 4th to be taken seriously.

  10. #35
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    I was visiting my gf's family in China and we passed some religious people handing out flyer. I decided to take one but my gf quickly pulled me away saying that there are people watching. Back at her family's I went on internet just to find out I can't access several political, news sites I used to go on in Canada. After dinner me and my gf's father started talking about politics. He had to warn me not to tell other's what we discuss and just keep them to ourselves even before we have started discussing anything. While out shopping with my gf, I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street. I am used to seeing maybe one or two cops at most a day in Canada and all those authority presense makes me feel like the country is in war or something.

    Also, I had a chance to visit HK while I was in China. The moment I crossed the China-HK border checkpoint I can feel an immediate change in atmosphere. Propoganda billboards are replaced by election billboards. Religious billboards and signs were out there which are virtually non-existence in China. The two regions are only separated by a fence and the difference in political environment is huge.

  11. #36
    Your Goddess is here Ma Cherie's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    you mean Chinese people suffer from political threat everyday?
    Your media or your government told you that?
    Chinese people now worry about unemployment, high housing price,
    high price medical treatment, high tuition fee......
    Now we can see your government's propaganda is more powerful than communist propaganda and that propaganda makes you misconstrue other country.
    Maybe that is why at all time American consider themself always right

    I think that alot of Americans are still under the impression that China is one of the most Communistic (if that's a word ) countries on the planet. Many people here don't know that with all the economic changes that are happening in China there are some political changes that taking place that we don't even know about. I for one, don't believe the China is Communist, I mean censoring certian sites and information doesn't make a country Communist. I mean, you hear people say "oh in China those people virtually have not freedom" but I think with all the economic changes taking place, these old ideas of Communism and Maoism are being challenged.

  12. #37
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma Cherie
    Many people here don't know that with all the economic changes that are happening in China there are some political changes that taking place that we don't even know about.
    About economic changes, sure, ever since the Open Door Policy was announced under Deng Xiaoping's rule. It's a far cry from what it was like from the start under Mao's regime.

    Regarding political changes, it really depends on what aspect and which time period you're referring to. You could say that there has been a number of political changes in the past decade in respect to the administration and various policies when comparing Jiang Zemin's rule and now, Hu Jintao's rule. However, the general way of management politically is still very similar and hasn't changed much.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ma Cherie
    I for one, don't believe the China is Communist, I mean censoring certian sites and information doesn't make a country Communist. I mean, you hear people say "oh in China those people virtually have not freedom" but I think with all the economic changes taking place, these old ideas of Communism and Maoism are being challenged.
    True, China isn't Communist in the sense of the political ideology, where nowadays, according to the economic policies alone, Communism is just a label.

    But China's society is still socialist due to Communism and its authoritarian characteristics of it are intact.

    Nevertheless, on the face of it, if you ever visit China's prosperous cities like Beijing and Shanghai, it would look nothing like a 'Communist country'. In fact, it would look very metropolitan like Singapore or Tokyo because of the open economic policies. People would have to look very closely or live there for some time to see the stark political differences.

  13. #38
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    As far as I'm concerned, the people who took part in June 4th have had a taste of brutal suppression by the CCP through witnessing or falling victim to it. It seems that you aren't in the slightest way affected by it, which makes your claim dubious.
    There are 1 million of Beijing citizens participated in that democratic movement, you mean all of them were sent to jail?
    I was in west Changan street that night and saw communist tank
    rush to Tiananmen square, my brother was in Tiananmen square, but
    in the morning they were driven out of the square.
    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    Tell that do the peasants and villagers who have undergone substantial injustice due to frequent corruption, who then get beaten and dragged away when they come all the way to Beijing to report their case.
    Tell that to those who come in conflict with Party officials only to be suppressed either by violence or have their livelihoods taken away.
    People are not 'interested', because they are powerless under this authoritarian regime.
    How have the Government changed a lot in any way of managing things? Corruption is still rampant. Justice is still not being served to people who bring claims - those who have money or Party connections get their way. There is still a great lack of human rights, not to mention torture is still being used often.
    And when the heck have people ever enjoyed freedoms like democracy? If they have, then they should have elected their Prime Minister.
    It seems that you haven't the slightest clue on political matters in China. But hey, how can you possibly know, when you have State-controlled television, State-controlled newspapers and State-controlled propaganda?
    that is economic conflict, not political conflict.
    I agree China has a long way to go to become a so called
    "harmonious society"
    but there is a debate of equity and efficiency in China.
    someone think if you want fast growth, you have to sacrifice equity.
    someone think equity is the top concern,
    I don't know who is right.

    Anyway I'm not a communist spokesman, I just show you my view of
    that ginat country.
    if you just look at it's dark side, it is a hell
    if you just look at it's bright side, it is a heaven
    Maybe we should balance the two.

  14. #39
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    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    I was visiting my gf's family in China and we passed some religious people handing out flyer. I decided to take one but my gf quickly pulled me away saying that there are people watching. Back at her family's I went on internet just to find out I can't access several political, news sites I used to go on in Canada. After dinner me and my gf's father started talking about politics. He had to warn me not to tell other's what we discuss and just keep them to ourselves even before we have started discussing anything. While out shopping with my gf, I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street. I am used to seeing maybe one or two cops at most a day in Canada and all those authority presense makes me feel like the country is in war or something.
    I have been to Shanghai and I
    "I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street"
    too

  15. #40
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    There are 1 million of Beijing citizens participated in that democratic movement, you mean all of them were sent to jail?
    I was in west Changan street that night and saw communist tank
    rush to Tiananmen square, my brother was in Tiananmen square, but
    in the morning they were driven out of the square.
    that is economic conflict, not political conflict.
    I never said anything about all of the demonstrators going to jail.

    It would seem that you aren't politically concerned about the Government despite that you and your brother were at June 4th, witnessing the bloodshed and killing.

    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    I agree China has a long way to go to become a so called
    "harmonious society"
    but there is a debate of equity and efficiency in China.
    someone think if you want fast growth, you have to sacrifice equity.
    someone think equity is the top concern,
    I don't know who is right.
    I've heard of this debate before and I personally think that it's rather pointless.

    First of all, equity and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive; there is no reason why you can have one, but not the other.

    In fact, equity accelerates 'efficiency', i.e. growth. This is because equity serves as a crucial foundation for stability and security in society. If people can have their equity and rights, they will be satisfied and have faith in the Government.

    On the other hand, without equity, the society is unstable from all the hate from the injustice, lack of faith in the Government and no confidence as to what will happen tomorrow. If this happens, then the society is like a dormant volcano just waiting to erupt one day, causing disaster.

    Without equity, 'efficiency' is only temporary and premature. When that volcano erupts, all that 'efficiency' is gone and wasted. In other words, when people cannot stand it any longer, protests, revolutions, civil wars will break out. When that happens, the society and country are in ruins needing to be rebuilt all over again.

    But even if the Communist Party understood this concept, they won't grant people equity. Why? Because they lose their grip on their authoritarian power and can no longer be 'king' and do whatever they please anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    if you just look at it's dark side, it is a hell
    if you just look at it's bright side, it is a heaven
    Maybe we should balance the two.
    Sure, but you cannot ignore problems. How you view them personally, as 'heaven or hell' or something else, is your business.

  16. #41
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    I have been to Shanghai and I
    "I've never seen so many police and military personnel on street"
    too
    And not counting the ones dressed with plain clothing.

  17. #42
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    I never said anything about all of First of all, equity and efficiency aren't mutually exclusive; there is no reason why you can have one, but not the other.
    In fact, equity accelerates 'efficiency', i.e. growth. This is because equity serves as a crucial foundation for stability and security in society. If people can have their equity and rights, they will be satisfied and have faith in the Government.
    On the other hand, without equity, the society is unstable from all the hate from the injustice, lack of faith in the Government and no confidence as to what will happen tomorrow. If this happens, then the society is like a dormant volcano just waiting to erupt one day, causing disaster.
    Without equity, 'efficiency' is only temporary and premature. When that volcano erupts, all that 'efficiency' is gone and wasted. In other words, when people cannot stand it any longer, protests, revolutions, civil wars will break out. When that happens, the society and country are in ruins needing to be rebuilt all over again.
    But even if the Communist Party understood this concept, they won't grant people equity. Why? Because they lose their grip on their authoritarian power and can no longer be 'king' and do whatever they please anymore.
    Sure, but you cannot ignore problems. How you view them personally, as 'heaven or hell' or something else, is your business.
    You are right politically
    Suppose, you plan to build a super highway and must go through a
    village, villagers refuse to move.
    Communist will order police or even army to force them leave.
    In democratic society things will be different, demonstration
    after demonstration, communication after communication, endless argy-bargy.......
    That is why when communist China already owned 35 thousands km
    of super highway, rank the second in the world,
    and some so called democratic country only owned their highway
    in blueprint.
    Do you know the Three Gorges dam--the world largest dam,
    To build this dam, hundreds of thousands residents had to
    leave their home and immigrated to other place.
    I believe in so called democratic country this dam will never build.
    of course volcano is preparing for erupt if communist keep on doing
    like that, I hope communist change their behavour gradually.
    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    And not counting the ones dressed with plain clothing.
    You mean when a Chinese citizen goes out to do something, there
    must be a secret police follow him? good idea, from now on,
    China will no dacoity, no rape, no ripoff, no swindle......
    unfortunately, things seem just on the contrary.

  18. #43
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Gs001, all I'm going to say is freedom of speech does not equal to demonstrations and inefficiency.

    Right now, without freedom of speech, it's much worse. People are forced to accept things, which would lead to demonstrations. Without freedom of speech, no one can protest against the corruption officials who are the ones wasting everybody's time by being lazy and not doing their job or embezzling money.

    Of course, freedom of speech alone is not enough; there need to be solid rules and means of enforcement in the country to support this.

  19. #44
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    nurizeko: you'd better live in your scottish backwater, read
    all the negative news about China and pretend that you know China
    very much.
    I know more about china then you do, because i live in a country where the media isnt state controlled and i dont dissappear one-day after i make some anti-governmental remarks, where the papers and news are allowed to report the truth or basically give any other observation on the news that isnt government sponsored and get away with it.

    I fear the chinese have become so indoctrinated into the idea that they have it as good as it gets is sad, you've been denied democracy and human rights so much you dont even care that people are tortured, made to dissappear, and other various infringements on human rights.

    Ide rather live in a free human rights respecting backwater then totalitarian "communist" china.

    Dont get me wrong, ive always liked china and the chinese, its the blatant abuse of basic human freedoms that bother me.

    If you were at the june 4th democratic protests, then it seems you've long had your soul crushed, long given up on any hope for democracy, if you were really there (though chances are your only claiming so to add empty weight to your point) then i wouldnt be suprised if the gs001 we have now is the result of government "political re-education".

  20. #45
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    Gs001, all I'm going to say is freedom of speech does not equal to demonstrations and inefficiency.
    Right now, without freedom of speech, it's much worse. People are forced to accept things, which would lead to demonstrations. Without freedom of speech, no one can protest against the corruption officials who are the ones wasting everybody's time by being lazy and not doing their job or embezzling money.
    Of course, freedom of speech alone is not enough; there need to be solid rules and means of enforcement in the country to support this.
    I agree, but something ironical, in Asia there are few countries
    became prosperous though democracy, on the contrary, many economic
    body such as South Korea, Taiwan, Singapore, Thailand...their
    fast-grow era was (in some degree) autarchic, when they became
    democracy, their growth slowed down, maybe that can
    tell the relationship between equity and efficiency.
    your HK as a former colony just have freedom but no democracy at that
    time, and benefit a lot from trade between mainland and outside.
    Japan maybe better, but they were occupied by USA, and their
    so called "peaceful constitution" was also made by USA.
    perhaps China will go the same process. of course gradually not
    immediately, or China will be Russianized(if has this word)
    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    I know more about china then you do, because i live in a country where
    I have heard such kind of comment on China hundred times
    have you got something new?
    I find that people from so called democratic country,
    always use formatted sentence to criticize China
    even the words they use were quite similar
    maybe that is the result of another kind of propaganda
    nurizeko, No one want to change you impression of China, just keep it

  21. #46
    Happy 4321go's Avatar
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    If you really concern the problem of China ,find the reason of it
    Don't forget the colonialist agressors of 1839-1945 and the international blockage from 1940' to 1990's. Even now,the international blockage is exist!
    Compare with India? India is a democratic country, After more than 100 years of colonial rule ,this country is poor and laggard. but still ,there 's no international blockage toward to India~ however ,there are many problem with India~
    you may say :as the colony,Hongkong is not poor .Notice:Hongkong is small ~even smaller than my city ~A city is easy to change~

  22. #47
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by 4321go
    If you really concern the problem of China ,find the reason of it
    Don't forget the colonialist agressors of 1839-1945 and the international blockage from 1940' to 1990's. Even now,the international blockage is exist!
    The biggest problem of China is its people. Most Chinese somehow still have a false sense of China being a culturally advance and a powerful nation. This sense of being a proud Chinese from a proud culture is the very reason that China cannot progress and modernize as fast and efficient as Japan had.

    China and Japan were facing the same colonial threat during the 1800s. In fact, China was ahead in interacting with western culture than Japan. Both China and Japan viewed westerners as threat during that time but the subsequent actions the two countries took were completely different. Japan admitted western cultures is a far more superior one and feverishly try to copy anything western in order to avoid colonialist aggressors.

    What did China do? Foreign ambassadors were asked to kneel in front of the Chinese emperor because they are regarded as long hair beast. From Chinese point of view, China is the center of the world, westerners are no different than the barbarians from the north, east, and south of China. Even when China was signing treaties to give up land to western powers, they still regarded western powers as inferior cultures. Chinese were just too proud too admit they are in fact a backward group of people.

    Even until present day, this gChina-Prideh mentality still exists in most Chinese people. Itfs always otherfs peoplefs fault never Chinafs, Chinese people can never be wrong. Itfs all westernerfs fault that China was still using bamboo sticks and swords fighting against colonialistf gun powder. Itfs all Japanfs fault when Chinese were too busy killing each other in a civil war to defend itself when Japan invaded the Manchu territory. Itfs all the nature disastersf fault when 20million Chinese died during the insane Great Leap Forward and Cultural Revolution. Itfs all western propagandafs fault when CCP were busy running over students with tank and executing political activist. I can never understand why is it so hard to admit your countryfs shortcomings.

    It's okay to suck. All country and civilization suck during sometimes of their history. It's just happened China has been sucking for the past 200 years. It doesn't mean China will suck forever. It doesn't hurt try to change how you guys view the world. You guys have the potential to be a great nation. At least act like one.

  23. #48
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    godppgo's opinion is right.
    we Chinese really need to reconsider our past,
    give up some negative thought and behavior,
    this kind of debate is also hot in Chinese forum
    welcome godppgo visit our forum, if you can't read
    Chinese, you may ask your gf to help you

  24. #49
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Godppgo is spot on and as always can say it much better then i can.

  25. #50
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    Quote Originally Posted by gs001
    godppgo's opinion is right.
    we Chinese really need to reconsider our past, give up some negative thought and behavior,this kind of debate is also hot in Chinese forum
    welcome godppgo visit our forum, if you can't read Chinese, you may ask your gf to help you
    He surely can ~ he is Taiwanese , and I read some of his post, I was quite annoyed for some of his viewpoint untill I realize he is a Taiwanese. I understand why he think like this ~ In fact what he type is the same as the Taiwan's media .

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