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Thread: If You Live In China........

  1. #1
    You SPAM/We BAN !
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    If You Live In China........

    don't say anything bad about your government over your computer! Seems YAHOO & GOOGLE and other foreign internet companies will help the Chinese government track you down and punish you. According to tonight's news, if they want to operate inside China, they must do what the Chinese government wants to help track down any disent.

    Frank

    TAKE WHAT I SAY WITH A GRAIN OF SUGAR !!
    I USED TO BE FUNNY, BUT MY WIFE HAD ME NEUTERED!

  2. #2
    Your Goddess is here Ma Cherie's Avatar
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    I guess it's true then, it is possible for a society to adopt capitalism and still have strong government control. It's sad really, I thought the whole deal of the modernzation of China was also supposed to help bring Democracy, but it seems that Google and Yahoo are only helping the government in censorship.
    "Persons attempting to find a motive in this narrative will be prosecuted; persons attempting to find a moral in it will be banished; persons attempting to find a plot in it will be shot."
    The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn
    by Mark Twain (Samuel Clemens)

  3. #3
    Regular Member bossel's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Frank D. White
    don't say anything bad about your government over your computer! Seems YAHOO & GOOGLE and other foreign internet companies will help the Chinese government track you down and punish you.
    Wang has already posted an article about Google's prostration.

    I haven't heard anything about Google tracking down dissidents (& I doubt that they would go so far, though it's possible).

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    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    During my trip to China I was not able to access several political-related web sites for which I normally could in Canada. I am not sure how effective blocking certain web site is though. With today's world interconnected in so many ways, it would be difficult to hide news from 1.3 billion people. If people really want to know about something, they'll find a way. I think the Chinese government's real intention is to try to prevent people from having an "interest" in finding out things around them.

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    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Why are all the chinese nationals posting everywhere but here?.....especially since they like to add their 2 cents worth about china, why aint they doing it here?.

    Also comes no suprise the chinese government is continuing its poor record of freedoms and rights for the people.

  6. #6
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    Why are all the chinese nationals posting everywhere but here?.....especially since they like to add their 2 cents worth about china, why aint they doing it here?.

    Also comes no suprise the chinese government is continuing its poor record of freedoms and rights for the people.
    Why does it concern you at all? (And for the record, I have posted here myself.)

    It's not like the Internet thread was started by a 'Chinese national'.

  7. #7
    born in the USSR Void's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Ma Cherie
    I guess it's true then, it is possible for a society to adopt capitalism and still have strong government control. It's sad really, I thought the whole deal of the modernzation of China was also supposed to help bring Democracy, but it seems that Google and Yahoo are only helping the government in censorship.
    well, and what about this?
    http://www.theregister.co.uk/2006/02...sors_us_video/

    and then the disproof is to foloow in many sources...
    as i recall there were some other "problems" between google and US government

    might be just a misinformation, and might be some truth as well

  8. #8
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Why does it concern you at all?
    Same applies to you, mine was a ligitimate inquiery.

    Makes sense chinese folk would post on the forum for chinese topics.


    Im suprised google is helping the chinese governments restrictive policies.

  9. #9
    Resident Realist nice gaijin's Avatar
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    if they didn't bend to the government's will, they wouldn't be allowed to operate in china, cutting them out of a particularly large market that is already being penetrated by other spineless entrepreneurs like microsoft and yahoo. I'm not surprised one bit...

    It's possible no chinese national has noticed this thread yet, or you could be paranoid and say that the government has blocked this subforum

  10. #10
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    Im suprised google is helping the chinese governments restrictive policies.
    Quote Originally Posted by nice gaijin
    if they didn't bend to the government's will, they wouldn't be allowed to operate in china, cutting them out of a particularly large market that is already being penetrated by other spineless entrepreneurs like microsoft and yahoo. I'm not surprised one bit...
    It's possible no chinese national has noticed this thread yet, or you could be paranoid and say that the government has blocked this subforum
    It only goes to show that multinational corporations only care about the stockholders' interests without regard for moral scrupples when both are in conflict.

    Google has received more flak for its recent succumbing to the Chinese Government's policies, as it has a motto of: "Don't be evil". It just goes to show double standards by these multi's; and moral responsibilities out the window for the sake of reaping the big bucks. One would have thought that Western values would have been unbreakable no matter what, though it would seem that greed works everywhere regardless of context.

    BTW, please don't label Chinese members on this forum as 'Chinese nationals' as it emphasizes nationality and allegiance for no good reason. Similarly I wouldn't go around calling the British and American folks here on this forum as 'British nationals' or 'American nationals'. It's fine when you use it in the context of world affairs and politics, but not when you refer to people in a community like on this forum.

    About this forum, I don't think the CCP has blocked it - yet. Otherwise a number of users from China wouldn't have been able to register here. I would think that they're rather slack on sites written in English as well because most of the Chinese population only know how to communicate in Chinese and it's not that the Internet police are well versed in English either.

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    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin

    BTW, please don't label Chinese members on this forum as 'Chinese nationals' as it emphasizes nationality and allegiance for no good reason. Similarly I wouldn't go around calling the British and American folks here on this forum as 'British nationals' or 'American nationals'. It's fine when you use it in the context of world affairs and politics, but not when you refer to people in a community like on this forum.
    I think the reason he used Chinese nationals is because Chinese users on this forum seem to be really sensitive about anything related to their government and country. This is true for all other politically related forums out there where young chinese male usually between the age of 20-35 are really sensitive and emotional when it comes to political topics. I think most of it has to do with the nationalistic crap the CCP has stuffed in their brain at an early age.

  12. #12
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by godppgo
    I think most of it has to do with the nationalistic crap the CCP has stuffed in their brain at an early age.
    And it's a real pity. Propaganda fed from birth through State media and State education.

    I too have noticed this trend - and in real life - with quite a lot of Chinese people from China, especially those who haven't a clue about current affairs from a view different from those given (or forced) by the CCP. It takes me forever to tell them what I'm getting at because I have to debunk so much of the propaganda in their heads at the outset. From what I keep hearing, it would seem that the CCP have brainwashed the majority into thinking that China cannot live with its existence and that it serves as China's 'mother'.

    However, there are a minority who are educated enough to know that they're living in a suppressed and authoritarian country, or if some of their family members used to serve the KMT, have relatives in Hong Kong or Taiwan, or survived through the Cultural Revolution.

    Still, it would be unjustified to impose the improper label of 'Chinese nationals' simply because of a number of individuals.

  13. #13
    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Actually when i say Chinese nationals it means just that, a national of china, a citizen born and bred in china.
    It works for British nationals, French nationals Russian nationals, nationals is a legitimate word which is used without issue by customs and immigration authorities all the world over.
    I am a british national, i was born live work and plan on dying in britain, i have a british passport, british citizenship, hence i am a british national.
    That is all it means, it doesnt have any link to nationalism, im sorry for the misunderstand, but, your understanding of the word was flawed.
    Now if i said i was a british nationalist, THEN it would carry the negetive meaning you were thinking of.

    Edit: And i agree, many chinese posters here do seem to have an almost propaganda agent type of opinion in regard to their government, on several occassions ivd been convinced they are working for the chinese government, but then, i probably under-estimated how well the chinese propaganda works on the public in general.

  14. #14
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by nurizeko
    nationals is a legitimate word which is used without issue by customs and immigration authorities all the world over.
    I didn't say 'national' was an illegitimate word. Note also the context you quote in addition to those I quoted where the word is used.

    It wouldn't be appropriate to use it in a community forum as, like I said, it emphasizes nationality and allegiance of individuals. This has nothing to do with nationalists as you brought up - which are supporters of an ideology.

    For instance, saying 'British' is enough to denote that someone is from Britain or has that nationality. Saying 'British national' would be putting emphasis on nationality, but is necessary in situations where you're dealing with world affairs and immigration when different nationals are at issue.

  15. #15
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    I think the reason Chinese nationals was used here is that it is a useful distinction in discussions like this to distinguish Chinese citizens of China from members of Chinese descent living elsewhere. Anyone of Chinese ancestry can claim to be Chinese, in contrast to American or British that alone imply residency and /or citizenship of the particular country.

  16. #16
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    I think the reason Chinese nationals was used here is that it is a useful distinction in discussions like this to distinguish Chinese citizens of China from members of Chinese descent living elsewhere. Anyone of Chinese ancestry can claim to be Chinese, in contrast to American or British that alone imply residency and /or citizenship of the particular country.
    The distinction can simply be made by saying 'members from China'. The word 'nationals' has political connotations, suitable for other contexts. Similarly, it won't be appropriate to term those from the US as 'American nationals' for the sake of distinguishing those living in Japan for instance.

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    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    The distinction can simply be made by saying 'members from China'. The word 'nationals' has political connotations, suitable for other contexts. Similarly, it won't be appropriate to term those from the US as 'American nationals' for the sake of distinguishing those living in Japan for instance.
    What should have been said was anyone living in China under the current restrictions, including foreigners but excluding Chinese citizens living abroad. And no one is suggesting American national be used for expatriates unless American were an ethnicity with significant, even majority, populations in countries around the world besides the US where I dare say, though, very few would be offended by the term.

  18. #18
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    What should have been said was anyone living in China under the current restrictions, including foreigners but excluding Chinese citizens living abroad.
    Yes, and I would reckon 'members from China' encapsulates the bulk of this meaning. Those living abroad don't normally call themselves 'from China' anymore.

    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    And no one is suggesting American national be used for expatriates...
    You misunderstand me; 'American nationals' as to those living in the US only (not expatriates).

    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    I dare say, though, very few would be offended by the term.
    Perhaps, though it's down to the individual.

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    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    As far as I know, the full and final meaning of American national is having American citizenship. We generally don't stop claiming our birthright en masse after leaving although the Chinese I happen to know don't stop saying they are from China either. Presumably Americans living in Japan would still be American citizens in contrast to a hypothetical country of "Americans" analogous to "ethnic Chinese" in any number of places around the world that they would need distinguishing from with the label national or citizen.

  20. #20
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Let's review what we've reached so far.

    What I'm saying is that 'national',
    (a) refers to those living in their country of origin, where automatically they would also acquire citizenship of that country (e.g. Chinese living in China, Americans living in the USA, Britons living in the UK and so on),
    and
    (b) is used in political contexts as well as for immigration and world affairs, which would be inappropriate here.

    You initially said that 'nationals' is used for:
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    ... a useful distinction ... to distinguish Chinese citizens of China from members of Chinese descent living elsewhere.
    And now you're suggesting that 'national' equates to citizenship only, i.e. not confined to where they live:
    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    As far as I know, the full and final meaning of American national is having American citizenship. ... Presumably Americans living in Japan would still be American citizens ...
    But then what you say now completely negates what you said earlier - if 'national' is not restricted to residing in the country of origin and citizenship, then there is no function of distinguishing between those residing there and abroad.

  21. #21
    Resident Realist nice gaijin's Avatar
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    whoops I didn't realize I was being addressed earlier and ignored the post...

    nurizeko and elizabeth are completely right about my intentions: I meant no political connotations or affiliations when I used the term "chinese nationals;" I was simply using the term I had seen used previously in this thread and others to identify members residing in mainland China (as opposed to, as Elizabeth put it, those of Chinese descent living outside of China).

    "Members from China" would also be acceptable I suppose, but it does seem to include those who are originally from China but are no longer residents. If I had known that the term "Chinese National" would make anyone so upset, I wouldn't have used it, but to me it didn't seem like it implied anything other than "someone of Chinese Nationality." At least that was all I intended by using the term.

  22. #22
    Danshaku Elizabeth's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Supervin
    Let's review what we've reached so far.
    What I'm saying is that 'national',
    (a) refers to those living in their country of origin, where automatically they would also acquire citizenship of that country (e.g. Chinese living in China, Americans living in the USA, Britons living in the UK and so on),
    and
    Unfortunately, I am not versed in the detailed requirements for American citizenship although it is common knowledge that being born in the US or in an American controlled jurisdiction bestows automatic citizenship regardless of length of time actually 'lived' or 'bred' there. Certainly it isn't anything that is automatically revokable for citizens living abroad. Americans in Japan that haven't given up their American citizenship are still nationals in the technical sense of definition 1.

    Obviously the Chinese referrant is much more ambiguous as an inclusive ethnic term that can be used pretty much by anyone to identify themselves as Chinese descent (living in Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Canada, America etc) that has never set foot in China and has no intention of becoming a citizen or even long-term resident. If this wasn't clear enough already....in this case, therefore, the Chinese national label becomes a useful point of distinction to clarify it is only citizens of China that are a target of discussion.

  23. #23
    Regular Member godppgo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    Obviously the Chinese referrant is much more ambiguous as an inclusive ethnic term that can be used pretty much by anyone to identify themselves as Chinese descent (living in Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Canada, America etc) that has never set foot in China and has no intention of becoming a citizen or even long-term resident. If this wasn't clear enough already....in this case, therefore, the Chinese national label becomes a useful point of distinction to clarify it is only citizens of China that are a target of discussion.
    Yes Chinese is probably the most ambiguous nationality in the world. For me the best way to describe "real" Chinese (one who holds a PRC passport) is to use the term China citizen. Sounds awkward but I can't really find a more clear way to call a Chinese.

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    tsuyaku o tsukete kudasai nurizeko's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    I think the reason Chinese nationals was used here is that it is a useful distinction in discussions like this to distinguish Chinese citizens of China from members of Chinese descent living elsewhere. Anyone of Chinese ancestry can claim to be Chinese, in contrast to American or British that alone imply residency and /or citizenship of the particular country.
    Bingo Elizabeth

    The distinction can simply be made by saying 'members from China'.
    I mean no disrespect, seriously, but that is heading in the direction of unjustified PC.
    The simple fact is the word national, is a ligitimate word to describe someones nationality.
    national

    • adjective 1 relating to or characteristic of a nation. 2 owned, controlled, or financially supported by the state.

    • noun a citizen of a particular country.

    \ DERIVATIVES nationally adverb.
    http://www.askoxford.com/concise_oed/national?view=uk

    It has NO nationalistic or patriotic meaning, it is merely a neutral word to describe the status of someones citizenship, place of origin, where they live.

    The word you concerned about is NATIONALIST and fortunately it hasnt been used at all apart from my attempts to educate you on the meaning of national in comparisson to the word your mistaking it for.

    Finally, in conclusion to this now clearly defined difference between the two words, patriotism isnt a crime, and secondly, Nationalist is really the wonly word to describe the majority opinions of some chinese posters here.

    I need not go into the reasons why, were all familiar to varying degrees the level of government conditioning that goes on with their people.

    I hope the national issue has been cleared up and your now quite familiar with its one and only neutral legitimate meaning.

  25. #25
    Regular Member Supervin's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Elizabeth
    Obviously the Chinese referrant is much more ambiguous ... themselves as Chinese descent (living in Taiwan, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia, Canada, America etc) that has never set foot in China and has no intention of becoming a citizen or even long-term resident. If this wasn't clear enough already....in this case, therefore, the Chinese national label becomes a useful point of distinction to clarify it is only citizens of China that are a target of discussion.
    Look, read. You said that the term 'national' refers only to citizenship. So the distinction does not exist. I'm not going to quote you again; I quoted you in the last post.

    Those living abroad who have "never set foot in China" in the places you've mentioned would be Taiwanese, Singaporean, Malaysian, Indonesian, Chinese-Canadian and Chinese-American. They wouldn't call themselves 'from China' because that would denote that they live there, although they would call themselves Chinese.

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