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Thread: Cute racism a la japonaise ?

  1. #101
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    Why didn't you use your 一般的なフォーラム here to avoid the stupid questions you were asked or discuss your interested topics with Japanese.
    This site is much better than other big Japan-related sites in terms of Nihongo tolarence for Japanese players. I think just translations of your previous threads does work to invite more Japanese here.

    I bet most of your misinformation will be solved.

  2. #102
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun
    Why didn't you use your 一般的なフォーラム here to avoid the stupid questions you were asked or discuss your interested topics with Japanese.
    This site is much better than other big Japan-related sites in terms of Nihongo tolarence for Japanese players. I think just translations of your previous threads does work to invite more Japanese here.

    I bet most of your misinformation will be solved.
    As if all Japanese people read what is on this forum... You can't change people even by explaining things to them. How do you expect to change a whole society just by posting stuff on a forum with just a few hundreds Japanese members ?

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  3. #103
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    As if all Japanese people read what is on this forum... You can't change people even by explaining things to them. How do you expect to change a whole society just by posting stuff on a forum with just a few hundreds Japanese members ?
    At least, all your posts turn into more realistic ones with more Japanese players here, trolls or not.
    I've tried not to reply you back in Japanese here, for I don't know your Nihongo skill and I guess it is not better than I imagine.

  4. #104
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Originally Posted by Pachipro
    The word prejudice, while meaning a judgement or opinion formed without gaining all the facts, can also mean an irrational hatred or suspicion of a particular group, people, or religion. In the case of the Japanese, and based on my own personal experiences spanning many years, I do not believe that they have an irrational suspicion or hate of foreigners as some may have you believe.
    I never use the word "prejudice" in the sense of "irrational hatred", but rather "judgement based on ignorance or mistaken beliefs" (from the root of the word "pre-" => "before" and "judice" => "judge", so "judge before having the knowledge" or "judge based on ignorance").
    Sorry if you thought that I was referring to you in the above quote. Everyone who knows you knows you do not mean hatred when using the word prejudice. However, some may think that after reading some of your posts and taking the word out of context. I was taking it to the extreme and just using of Dictionary.com's meaning of the word:

    Quote Originally Posted by Dictionary.com
    Prejudice:

    1.
    a. An adverse judgment or opinion formed beforehand or without knowledge or examination of the facts.

    b. A preconceived preference or idea.

    2. The act or state of holding unreasonable preconceived judgments or convictions. See Synonyms at predilection.

    3. Irrational suspicion or hatred of a particular group, race, or religion.

    4. Detriment or injury caused to a person by the preconceived, unfavorable conviction of another or others.
    Your definition of prejudice is my defintion of racism.
    And the definition of the word racism can also mean prejudice:

    racism

    1. The belief that race accounts for differences in human character or ability and that a particular race is superior to others.

    2. Discrimination or prejudice based on race.
    Now let's look at some synonyms:

    Synonyms for prejudice:

    ageism, animosity, antipathy, apartheid, aversion, bad opinion, belief, bias, bigotry, chauvinism, contemptuousness, detriment, discrimination, disgust, dislike, displeasure, disrelish, enmity, foregone conclusion, head-set, illiberality, injustice, jaundiced eye, mind-set, misjudgment, narrow-mindedness, one-sidedness, partiality, pique, preconceived notion, preconception, prejudgment, prepossession, racism, repugnance, revulsion, sexism, slant, spleen, tilt, twist, umbrage, unfairness, warp, xenophobia
    racism, definition: prejudice
    Synonyms: apartheid, bias, bigotry, discrimination, illiberality, Jim Crow, one-sidedness, partiality, racialism, sectarianism, segregation, unfairness
    Synonyms for discrimination:
    bigotry, favoritism, hatred, inequity, injustice, intolerance, partiality, prejudice, unfairness, wrong
    Although prejudice and racism both use the word discrimination as synonyms, the word discrimination does not use the word racism, racist, or racial for synonyms although it is used as racial hatred, racial injustice, etc. Strange.

    My, isn't English a difficult language with so many meanings and synonyms for the same word. If you use the above definitions literally one may say that not only are the Japanese discriminatory towards foreigners, but they must also be racist and prejudice. And I'm sure in some cases they are, as are all nationalities to some extent.

    Therefore, if I say the Japanese are discriminatory towards foreigners in a particular context, another person may conclude that I meant they were also racist and prejudice when that is not what I meant. That's why, in English, when things are taken out of context with what the author is meaning it can lead to misunderstanding, confusion, and even anger among some readers as so often happens in the US. I wonder if other languages are as complex as English?
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  5. #105
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    Hey mac, you are absolutely right. I was talking to some japanese people, and they said they do not americans. They said, "They are too pushy". and they said, quote, "if anyone has a racisim issue is the north americans"

    They also said this, but Ic an't undrestand it well, maybe later:
    アメ人さんさ、日本人はアメリカ人に対して自主差別す るって良いだ
    前英語で困った

    They also said american people are funny
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  6. #106
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    ... but that's probably a way of satisfying their insecurity.
    What's more, the Japanese tend to have a love-hate relationship wit Westerners (which is usually reciprocal). More accurately, they admire Western people, cultures and countries so much that they want to copy everything; not just systems, and technologies, but fashion, hairstyles (even colour), food, vocabulary, and some go as far as to get surgical operations of the eyelids to get a "third fold" to look more "Caucasian". That's also why Japanes girls are so fond of Western men. This further enhance the feeling of insecurity and worthlessness among some Japanese men. The same trend is also apparent in modern Chinese cities like Shanghai or Beijing (and even in South-East Asia, but a bit differently for economic reasons).
    wow is that true? thats awesome.(not the demeaning of japanese men and women having surgery, just the way japanese look up to westerners) I think that smaller degrees of racism are understandable in Japan for these reasons to make them feel not superior but to raise their self esteem and patriotism a bit. I don't think this should be taken out hand though and should be kept uncommon and relativley harmless. After all japanese can't really justify racism against the west, technically we made them what they are today. (apart from having two atomic bombs dropped on them)

    The thing about black people makes me really angry. If it happens the way it has been described by the op (is that the person who writes the thread?) then more effort should go on promoting awareness and anti-racist strategies should be employed. (maybe if it was cool in the west not to be racist?)

    I hate hearing about racism in Japan and i don't want to generalise because i'm sure thousands of foriegners live in Japan and encounter no racism, but i find myself getting angry about the ignorant element that exists there.

  7. #107
    Koyaniskatsi yukio_michael's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by dangdaga
    thats good.
    [img]- GIGANTIC IMAGE HERE /img]
    Your sig is huge, and it's not even in the signature, you seem to be adding it by hand. You should maybe reduce that down to a third of it's size...

    Your whole response is "That's Good", with a gigantic image underneath about 50 times the size of the words you posted.
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  8. #108
    Seeing is believing Minty's Avatar
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    Then in several European countries, people have been eating raw fis for centuries. One of the most stereotypical food of the Netherlands is the "maatjes" (raw herring). Scandinavians also eat raw fish, and to a lesser extent Mediteranean people too. I guess that among Westerners, it is mostly in English-speaking countries, France* or Central-Eastern Europe that it is not part of traditional food. In places far from the sea, it is fairly normal. As for Britain, well, people boil or bake everything there ! Yet, most Western countries (including France and English-speaking countries) do have a tradition of eating raw oysters (alive).
    French do eat raw fish just not with “wasabi” but some creamy sauce on a petite toast called Canape'.

    Yet, not a single Japanese person has asked me whether I "could" eat soba or okonomiyaki. Why ? I don't know. It's probably because so many Japanese have the strange idea that sushi/sashimi is a kind of food that only Japanese people can appreciate. This is what I call a "misconception regarding foreigners/Westerners". In fact, I found that more Western friends of mine don't like much soba (especially cold), but almost all of them love sushi.
    Maybe it’s because of Pasta? Pasta is noodle but of course the sauces of Pastas dishes are very different to Japanese noodle dishes hence say the dish "Chicken Fetuccini" and the dish "Tempura Udon" would be different. However they are still noodle dishes.

    Either by ignorance - looking only at the US to define all Western countries, which is a huge mistake, as the US is a melting pot of world cultures, which developed a society very different from European cultures.
    I find Japanese and Taiwanese (not counting the ones who lived and studied overseas) tend to only know Americans as Westerners.

    It doesn't seem so obvious to all Japanese that not only Japan has four seasons. Or at least, it is not obvious to them that all Europe does. Otherwise, why would it be such a common question, and why would some people be surprised when I say that Belgium, or France, or Italy all have 4 seasons ? Even my wife admitted that she did not know that before going to Europe (before meeting me). That's very strange for me. What do Japanese people learn at school about geography, I asked my wife. She said that 1) not everybody takes geography classes (it's not compulsory like in Europe), and 2) some teachers had told her that Japan was one of the rare countries in the world to have 4 seasons (I can't speak for other Japanese, but in her case, and other friends to whom I asked, that is what they were told).
    That’s really strange; I would have thought common knowledge like this would be taught in school. I have met Japanese and Taiwanese who didn’t believe Perth have no time difference between Taiwan, Singapore, and Malaysia…etc.

    They said "Australia is at the bottom side of the globe, so it must have time differences than those countries who are not."

    Of course this means they don’t know how time zone works.

    Yes very true. Unfortunately, with very few exceptions, the Japanese as a whole are like sheep as they believe what they are told and taught and read in the newspapers and hear on TV. Very few take the time to do any real research on their own or question authority as they don't want to stand out in a crowd lest "the protruding nail gets hammered down."
    My university lecture mentioned to us once that the obedience rate of Japanese was 90 percent while in Chinese was 70 percent and the obedience rate of Americans was only 50 percent.

    agree. I left Japan justly because the Japanese would never accept that a foreigner could become "Japanised", and would always look at me as a "curious thing", and ask me stupid questions (can you use chopsticks ? can you eat sushi ? Have you heard of Hokkaido ?) even knowing that I had been in Japan for years, was married to a Japanese, spoke Japanese (to them), and managed this website about Japan. It is very irritating for someone who tries hard to learn as much about the culture "to go native", and still be treated like the first newly arrived tourist by people who have known him for several years. Sometimes, in an occasional fit a paranoia, I wonder if the Japanese government has not instructed all Japanese to behave exactly as they do to discourage "Japanised foreigners" to stay in Japan, so that they will not try to change their "pure" country.
    Well, this is my experience as a Chinese born in Malaysia, but later as an immigrant of Australia. It is wondrous if you can come to Australia, reside in Australia, study the language and then implement for citizenship.
    Nevertheless, while the official "paper" naturalisation is rather unproblematic, the interpersonal one is much more effortful if sometimes not absolute close to impracticable. Take your new compatriots, the "native" people, with their innate human curiousness they will ask you the same question no matter where you go- the "Where are you from?" question.

    Unless you are some lingual virtuoso and have a good musical ear, you will have an accent. Or, if you are of a contrastive cultural group, you will appear dissimilar from the absolute majority of people. Your name may also excel. So, people will question you the same thing over and over again: "Where do you come from?" Sure, now you can tell them about your recent abidance in the country, the brand new town where you reside. They will then plausibly grimace insatiately and demand you a more straightforward, more perceptive question that you plainly cannot obviate.

    Now- "Where do you come from, to begin with?" Now, this is a pugnacious one. Unless you want to prevaricate, you will have to narrate them the verity. So, in interpersonal situations, you frequently, if not always, persist as an outsider. In spite of the vow you took when you became a citizen of the country.

    If people get huffy at you for any grounds, they may even say to you "Go back to (insert country’s name here)! even though you are a citizen of Australia.

    Now, it is pleasant to get a new passport and exalt with preen: "I am a citizen of..." Nevertheless, for some reason, not a single country in the world releases a passport that does not have your birthplace inscribed in it. So, if you jaunt, officers that ascertain your passport may begin questioning you, sometimes culpable, but, sometimes, wary ones and address you as a person of the former country, not the new one you are a citizen of. And God proscribe if your former country has a rotten reputation in the one you are visiting. You can be labelled all kinds of names, or even denied ingress.

    Not only in Japan also overseas, Japanese do not like to mix with foreigners.

    In Tilburg where I live in the Netherlands are quite some Japanese working for FUTJI and a few other Japanese firms. They all live together just outside Tilburg in a villa quarter. There is hardly any contact with the Dutch people,
    the Japanese families live on a island, also in Tilburg.
    In France they do the same thing. They have their own Japanese schools here, they don’t attend local schools.

    Those North Africans are not immigrants, they are as French (language and culture) as everyone else. They are second and third generation North Africans and most don't even know that much about their faith since they have probably never stepped a foot outside France. Why were they rioting? Because it is hard for them to get jobs (because of their names and skin color), it does not have to do with religion.
    No it has to do with religion and their attitudes, I know some Vietnamese French who have lived in France since five generations but never received any discrimination from the white French.

    Just for the information, there is about as much rice in Belgian or French supermarkets as in Japanese ones as a proportion of all the products available. Traditionally, Spaniards use rice in paella, Italians in risotto, French people in riz au lait, Greeks in various dishes... Chinese food has become one of the most common cuisine in most of Europe, while Indian food has the de facto national cuisine of the UK for at least 20 years. Yet, I have noticed that many Japanese people wondered if we could even find rice in a European supermarket ! It is true that Japanese rice is more difficult to find (they have some at Carrefour though), but Mediterranean, Indian, Thai or American rice are as common as potatoes or pasta.
    I don’t think there are as many kinds/brands of rice as you have described, but I agree that Japanese should not assume you can't find rice in Europe at all. I think out of the countries I have been America has the biggest range of products.

    In France, they have lots of products but mainly French products. I find many missing ingredients I need in the Asian grocery stores here.

    wow is that true? thats awesome.(not the demeaning of japanese men and women having surgery, just the way japanese look up to westerners)
    Actually eye lid surgeries are more common among Koreans because something like 70 percent of Koreans are born with single eye lid, something considerate to be not pretty in East Asian ideology of beauty.

  9. #109
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty
    In France they do the same thing. They have their own Japanese schools here, they don’t attend local schools.
    Is this a problem?? I guess most of these kids stay there for like 3-4 years, and then move on to another place, parents don't want their kids to drop out of the mainstream educational system, just because of language difficulties and different educational systems..They are not immigrants..They are Japanese citizens, they will not settle down, and most of them will eventually go home..

    Those who attend local schools will have lots of problems when they return, and many will take some time to assimilate back to their own culture..These people are called KIKOKUSHIJOs, or in English, "third culture kids".

    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kids
    Last edited by osias; May 10, 2006 at 17:48.

  10. #110
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  11. #111
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    Quote Originally Posted by pipokun
    Right, French people also have their own schools in Japan..
    Last edited by osias; May 11, 2006 at 05:17.

  12. #112
    Seeing is believing Minty's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by osias
    Is this a problem?? I guess most of these kids stay there for like 3-4 years, and then move on to another place, parents don't want their kids to drop out of the mainstream educational system, just because of language difficulties and different educational systems..They are not immigrants..They are Japanese citizens, they will not settle down, and most of them will eventually go home..
    Those who attend local schools will have lots of problems when they return, and many will take some time to assimilate back to their own culture..These people are called KIKOKUSHIJOs, or in English, "third culture kids".
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Third_culture_kids
    You sir like to stick words in my mouth, where did I say it is a problem? I just mentioned this because it is the same in France as it is in the Netherlands.
    Last edited by Minty; May 12, 2006 at 07:20.

  13. #113
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    Quote Originally Posted by Minty
    You sir likes to stick words in my mouth, where did I say it is a problem? I just mentioned this because it is the same in France as it is in the Netherlands.
    oh, i thought we were talking about racism.

  14. #114
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    Quote Originally Posted by osias

    oh, i thought we were talking about racism.
    No, this thread is not about racism, but just easy generalisation.
    For example, just imagine where on earth is the stupid Japanese who believe pasta and udon noodle are the same.

  15. #115
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo View Post
    I only do it when I am asked whether I can eat sushi, natto, umebosh, etc. especially if they tell me that "foreigners usually can't eat this or that", just to show them that it's the same everywhere. I also remind them that natto is not very popular in Western Japan, and that I have met some Japanese who didn't like sushi, and that sushi ranked as the most popular Japanese dish in the 2 polls about Japanese food on JREF (and indeed sushi restaurant are the most common Japanese restaurant in Western countries). Only after that do they seem to understand that it's futile to say such nonsense as "Japanese people can eat sushi, and foreigners can't".
    私は、刺身は非常に嫌いなので、これは差別とゆう資格 は るかどうか分かりません。

  16. #116
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    What the ****, "cute Racism", ummmm i guess, people on this forum need to stop the silly bashing on japan and toughen up 4x more.

  17. #117
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  18. #118
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    I am tired of this self-righteous crap, lol.
    Look, OFFENSE IS TAKEN NOT GIVEN. I am a gaijin and I understand that I am a guest here no matter what; whether i am here with my wife for a few years or the rest of our lives.
    What happened to inalienable rights? You, me, or anyone else in the world does not have the right to complain about someone else's racism. I believe that everyone has a right to their opinion, views, etc.
    It may offend you to watch tv here, but it would be a lot worse if it was mandated that the tv programs were not allowed to self govern.
    I don't like this kind of crap any more than you guys do, but the bottom line here is that everyone in the world SHOULD have the right to free speech, including us, but to think that it is somehow wrong or bad... nah.
    Do not 'slippery slope' my comments.

  19. #119
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    Asian countries may be more xenophobic due to past event in history, anyway that's the way I see it, and you know Europe weren't as much open as Japan in the past either. Also, I experienced racism in my childhood and even in late high school, having been thrown rocks at, spit in the face, mocked, sprayed chemical products in the eyes... by other kids, so I don't think racism is worst in Japan than anywhere else, god you people should grow up.

  20. #120
    Back home maushan3's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by caster51 View Post
    The Amazing Racist, huh? Looks more like the amazing dumb***. Would be an honor to take him down, teach him right. That was pretty harsh man.

    Mauricio

  21. #121
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    ... I think we all need to get off our computers and go outside and get a breath of fresh air/play some sports rather than argue this, it's gettin' kinda silly.
    Yours Truly,
    Gentleman10ー♪

  22. #122
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    Heart Why Japan does racist things

    I think everyone needs to remember that Japan has never had any wars or division based on any type of discrimination.

    Has Japan had a Civil War? No.

    Has Japan had a 9/11 incident? No.

    Has Japan ever had a war between religious groups (like the UK's Williamite Wars or the Crusades)? No.

    Has Japan ever enslaved blacks, white, native americans, and/or any other "foreign" groups? Not to my knowledge.

    Has Japan ever had any "gender wars" (like the American Feminist Movement of the 1970s)? No.

    If you read Japanese history, you'll find out why these people do and say things they do. I notice that Japanese society also has a "That-won't-happen-in-my-country" attitude, simillar to America's pre-9/11 attiude. Does it make racism okay? No.

    Like it or not, people have to experience trials for themselves in order to understand the trials of others. I've had the sad experience of Brits and Swedes telling me to my face that I was an anomaly because I am racially mixed. I had to understand that they will never know how I felt because they have a single racial ancestry.

    Side note: Too bad they missed out on the many stories about my ancestors SAVING or CONTRIBUTING to their countries. I often hope that those type of people become like me in their next lifetime. Hee hee hee...

    --Kadiya

  23. #123
    Master of the Universe Bucko's Avatar
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    Sorry but I have to correct some things here...

    Has Japan had a Civil War? No.
    Wrong. Japan's history is filled with civil wars, both large and small. The last being the Boshin War from 1869 to 1869.
    Has Japan had a 9/11 incident? No.
    You wouldn't compare the atomic bombings and firebombings as the same as the 9/11 incident. If anything, what the Japanese experienced was far worse than the petty 9/11 incident.
    Has Japan ever had a war between religious groups (like the UK's Williamite Wars or the Crusades)? No.
    Are you kidding me? WWII was basically a religious war for the Japanese. As well as that, the Tokugawa Shoganate banned Christianity in 1614 and killed anyone who was thought to be Christian, thousands died. As well as that, there have been mass slaughterings of buddhists all throughout Japan's history.
    Has Japan ever enslaved blacks, white, native americans, and/or any other "foreign" groups? Not to my knowledge.
    There has been slavery in Japan, but not to the extent of other countries, and certainly not of foreign groups. However, during the Second World War the Japanese army did use captured POWs for slave labour.
    I've had the sad experience of Brits and Swedes telling me to my face that I was an anomaly because I am racially mixed.
    I'm sorry you had to hear that.

  24. #124
    Ole porco!!! Ole porco!!! JapaMisawa_BR's Avatar
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    Japanese people are more xenophobic because they live on an island. As a result, they don't have much contact with foreigners.

    I have "japanese" brazilian relatives and friends that are in Japan and they say that there are many pejudiced japanese.

    I have talked to one of my teachers too and he said that this happens because japanese people see brazil as a country with african-culture only.

  25. #125
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    We all live on islands. It is just that some islands aren't surrounded by water so we tend not to notice we're on them.

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