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Thread: Cute racism a la japonaise ?

  1. #51
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    あなたが、バライティ番組で外国人を笑いのネタにすることを「a typically Japanese phenomenon」と言ったことに対しての発言です。日本人に典型である(=「日本人論」)というのな らば、少なくともこの二大国について調査しないのは適当ではないと思ったわけです。「他にはない」ことを証 明しなければ「典型的」とは言えないでしょ?
    ご理解頂けましたか?
    Your argument does not follow. What's "typical" for a certain group of peoples can very well be "typical" for another. You don't have to argue that a certain trait exists only in a certain sample of people for it to be defined as "typical."

    But either way, what's irritating people is the kind of humor that the Japanese find funny. Time after time, foreigners are funny for the sake of being a foreigner in these variety shows (余談かもしれませんが、たしか正しい綴りは「バラティ」の筈なんですけど。。。). I'm quite sure that shows around the world would have jokes about stereotypes. I'm also quite sure that many of those jokes are funny because it revolves around a specific quality or absurdity of the stereotype itself. A long shot away from the Japanese form where you can laugh at a foreigner for doing ordinary things.
    Last edited by Bibinbahell; Nov 26, 2005 at 08:16.

  2. #52
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    As far as I know, there is no such TV programmes anywhere else. If there is, please tell me the name of the programme, channel and country where it is shown.
    I find it incredible you can even purport to hold a valid opinion on this matter, given you will have seen a tiny miniscule percentage of all the programming on TVs worldwide, in every country.

    Here's a quick starter for ten:

    Goodness Gracious Me, BBC2, the UK.

    One of their most famous sketches is showing a group of Indian lads doing things "normal" for British lads, i.e. getting drunk and going into a foreign restaurant.

    It is funny because it is out of character for them, even though you can see hundreds of British groups doing it every Friday and Saturday night.

  3. #53
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijin 06
    Goodness Gracious Me, BBC2, the UK.

    One of their most famous sketches is showing a group of Indian lads doing things "normal" for British lads, i.e. getting drunk and going into a foreign restaurant.

    It is funny because it is out of character for them, even though you can see hundreds of British groups doing it every Friday and Saturday night.
    Wrong answer. This programme is made by British people of Indian descent for people of Indian descent. Actually, there is not a single TV programme made by Westerners for Westerners in Japan. You could say that "Goodness Gracious Me" is a proof of the good adaptation and lack of instintutionalised racism in the UK. What I complain about in Japan is not just that ordinary people should think in a racist way (this can happen everywhere), but that "racist views" are supported and advertised by the media or government. That is much worse, as it only reinforces the problem on a nationwide scale.

    "Goodness Gracious Me" would be similar to Japan if the programme was made by White people who made fun of Indian immigrants (or children) speaking English, by providing subtitles in weirdly spelled English whenever one of them spoke in very good English (esp. that such subtitles are normally not used in the UK, except maybe for an elderly farmer with a heavy regional accent, but never in misspelt English insinuating that they can't speak properly).

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  4. #54
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Your argument does not follow. What's "typical" for a certain group of peoples can very well be "typical" for another. You don't have to argue that a certain trait exists only in a certain sample of people for it to be defined as "typical."
    「典型的」と「普遍的」の違いがわかりますか?多くの 国や社会に一般的に見られることを「一部の集団の典型 的な特徴」とはいいません。それは概念矛盾です。
    日本には「四季」が りますが、これを「日本に典型的 な特徴で る」などといったらおかしいでしょ?
    もちろん、ごく少数の例外を挙げて典型性を否定しよう とするならば単なる げ足取りの議論かもしれません。 しかし、アメリカや中国を観察の対象から除外するのは 適切ではないですね。

  5. #55
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I said that cute racism was a typically Japanese phenomenon. It's not the same as making ethnic jokes between Japanese. I am talking of recruiting foreigners and making them do stupid things, or making them look stupid by giving them katakana subtitles. In fact, some of the foreigners on TV do not even have to act stupidly to make the Japanese people on TV laugh (and the audience I guess). As other people said, many Japanese just find it hilarious to see a foreigner do things that are completely normal for Japanese people. As far as I know, there is no such TV programmes anywhere else. If there is, please tell me the name of the programme, channel and country where it is shown.
    再掲になりますが・・・

    イギリスの例を一つ
    http://tviv.org/wiki/Banzai

    また、ハンガリーでは次のような番組が放映されていたそうです。
    http://www.sankei.co.jp/edit/bunka/2...ji/0501tv.html
    この番組はもともとオランダで製作され、欧州の複数の 国で放映されてたものを、ハンガリーの放送局が版権購入し独自に製作したものだそうです。

    日本人の大半はこれらの番組を笑って済ますぐらいの余裕があると思いますが、海外に住みマイノリティーとし て差別問題に敏感にならざるを得ない日本人の中に はracismを感じる人も少なくないでしょう。ちょうど現 在のあなたのように。

    そういえばフランス映画「タクシー2」でもおかしな日本人が描かれていましたね。

    ベルギーについてはそもそもどのような番組が放映されているか 知らないので何ともいえません。

    詳しくはgoogleで「変な日本」あるいは「ヘンな日本」 で調べてみてください。
    http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...5%E6%9C%AC&lr=
    http://www.google.com/search?num=50&...C%E7%B4%A2&lr=

    そもそも欧州では、各国の人々をステレオタイプ化して ネタにする「小話」がまさに「文化」として根付いているのではないです か?
    その中には日本人をネタにしたものもあるはずです。


    あなたの意見を読んでいると、出所は不明ですがある「ジョーク」を思い出しました。
    「イギリス人は倹約家だがユダヤ人はケチだ。」

    ちなみに、日本人の英語下手は結構ジョークのネタになっていますよ。当人たちは「ちゃんと話している」つも りなんですが。
    googleで「engrish」で検索してみてください。
    http://www.google.com/search?num=50&hl=ja&q=engrish
    Last edited by kkkktttt; Nov 26, 2005 at 11:03.

  6. #56
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    「典型的」と「普遍的」の違いがわかりますか?。
    Do I know the difference between typical and universal? I don't know. You tell me. What are you trying to say? That racism is universal? That everyone is a racist at heart?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    多くの国や社会に一般的に見られることを「一部の集団 の典型的な特徴」とはいいません。それは概念矛盾です 。。
    Huh? So you're saying that despite all the observations given that demonstrate that Japanese "cute" racism is perpetuated by ignorance, feelings of superiority, or whatnot, if racism exists outside of Japan, we cannot say, "It is typical for the Japanese to have racist views"? I'd say that's an attempt to play down the issue at hand. If it's only an individual problem, then that would be much better than what's happening now.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    日本には「四季」が りますが、これを「日本に典型的 な特徴で る」などといったらおかしいでしょ?
    Yes, it would sound strange because not all of Japan has the 4 seasons; like, oh, I don't know, Okinawa for one?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    もちろん、ごく少数の例外を挙げて典型性を否定しよう とするならば単なる げ足取りの議論かもしれません。 しかし、アメリカや中国を観察の対象から除外するのは 適切ではないですね。
    I thought that we are, in fact, talking about faults. I don't read or watch Chinese media but I can say that although the media in the United States may display ethnocentrism but it will, in no way, ever try to perpetuate racist views like they do in Japan (at least in respected publications).

  7. #57
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Do I know the difference between typical and universal? I don't know. You tell me. What are you trying to say? That racism is universal? That everyone is a racist at heart?)
    まずはご自分で辞書で調べてみてください。それでも分からなければ具体的に質問してください。教えてあげま す。
    差別思想と全く無縁の人はいないでしょう。事実を冷徹に認識することは正しい解決の第一歩です。おのおのの 差別心を冷静に自省した上でその克服を目指すべきです。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Huh? So you're saying that despite all the observations given that demonstrate that Japanese "cute" racism is perpetuated by ignorance, feelings of superiority, or whatnot, if racism exists outside of Japan, we cannot say, "It is typical for the Japanese to have racist views"? I'd say that's an attempt to play down the issue at hand. If it's only an individual problem, then that would be much better than what's happening now.
    わざわざ「typical」等と言わなくても日本の人種差別問題を批判することは出来ますし、自国が同じよ うな人種差別問題を抱えているからと言って他国を批判できないわけではありません。
    金正日体制を支持する在日朝鮮人連合会でさえ日本の差別問題を批判できるのですから。
    ただし、自国のことを棚に上げた議論を展開するならば、「説得力」は伴わないでしょうが。

    普遍的な問題であるにもかかわらず日本だけの問題であるということは、一見人種差別問題の解消を目指してい るようで、実は日本に対する差別的な見方を助長する結果ともなりかねません。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Yes, it would sound strange because not all of Japan has the 4 seasons; like, oh, I don't know, Okinawa for one?
    沖縄にも四季はありますよ。
    http://www.google.co.jp/search?q=%E6...&start=10&sa=N

    もちろん、北海道にもあります。
    http://www.google.co.jp/search?hl=ja...C%E7%B4%A2&lr=


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    I thought that we are, in fact, talking about faults. I don't read or watch Chinese media but I can say that although the media in the United States may display ethnocentrism but it will, in no way, ever try to perpetuate racist views like they do in Japan (at least in respected publications).
    日本人はアメリカのメディアにおける格好の笑いの対象のひとつでしょう?最近は日本自体の影が薄くなってい るので余り取り上げられることはないかもしれませんが、ジャパン・バッシングの時代を思い出し てください。
    また、程度の差はあなたが「差別する側」(笑う側)に立っているのか「差別される側」(笑われる側)に立っ ているかで認識が異なってきます。
    日本人の多くは、自らのことを棚に上げて「アメリカの方がひどい」と思っているでしょう。
    ただし、こんな議論をやっていて何の利得がありますか?双方に問題があるのならば共にその解決を目指すべき ではないですか?
    Last edited by kkkktttt; Nov 26, 2005 at 13:46.

  8. #58
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    まずはご自分で辞書で調べてみてください。それでも分 からなければ具体的に質問してください。教えて げま す。
    My bad. I completely forgot that sarcasm rarely works in Japanese.


    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    差別思想と全く無縁の人はいないでしょう。事実を冷徹 に認識することは正しい解決の第一歩です。おのおのの 差別心を冷静に自省した上でその克服を目指すべきです 。
    There's a difference between acknowledging racism as a problem and actively participating in it. You tell me whether Japan has a tendency to do the former or the latter. Solving the problems would be great. But considering how long it's been going on, you have to honestly ask yourself what measures have actually been taken to prevent racism?

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    わざわざ「typical」等と言わなくても日本の人種差別 竭閧批判することは出来ますし、自国が同じような人 差別問題を抱えているからと言って他国を批判できな 「わけでは りません。
    金日正体制を支持する在日朝鮮人連合会でさえ日本の差 別問題を批判できるのですから。
    ただし、自国のことを棚に上げた議論を展開するならば 、「説得力」は失うでしょうが。

    普遍的な問題で るにもかかわらず日本だけの問題で るということは、一見人種差別問題の解消を目指してい るようで、実は日本に対する差別的な見方を助長する結 果ともなりかねません。
    Okay. You don't like "typical?" How about "widespread?" Or maybe "mainstream?" It doesn't change that Japanese people who aren't racist are more the exception than the rule.

    And you really don't have to worry about people discriminating against Japan. In my experience, most people are in the narrow range of looking at Japan through rose-color glasses to being downright apathetic. People who care about such social issues of Japan are relatively rare.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    日本人はアメリカのメディアにおける格好の笑いの対象 のひとつでしょう?最近は日本自体の影が薄くなってい るので余り取り上げられることはないかもしれませんが、ジャパ ン・バッシングの時代を思い出してください。
    Japan bashing? Are you talking about the times when workers in Detroit paid to take swing at Japanese cars with a bat? How many decades ago is that? You'll have to refresh my memory on any current events where America has said racist things to Japan. To the best of my knowledge, they're not doing it NOW. I have rarely seen references to Japan in the form of ridicule.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    また、程度の差は なたが「加害者の側」(笑う側)に 立っているのか「被害者の側」(笑われる側)に立って いるかで認識が異なってきます。
    日本人の多くは、自らのことを棚に上げて「アメリカの 方がひどい」と思っているでしょう。
    ただし、こんな議論をやっていて何の利得が りますか ?双方に問題が るのならば共にその解決を目指すべき ではないですか?
    Well of course. But the ones doing the harm is the overwhelming majority in Japan.

    Sitting down to solve problems with mutual understanding would be great. We're (sort of) doing that now. Unless a body with political power pushes for change or that the Japanese come to their senses, that's not going to happen.

  9. #59
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    My bad. I completely forgot that sarcasm rarely works in Japanese.
    私も皮肉で返したつもりなんですが。あなたには通じませんでしたね。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Okay. You don't like "typical?" How about "widespread?" Or maybe "mainstream?" It doesn't change that Japanese people who aren't racist are more the exception than the rule.

    And you really don't have to worry about people discriminating against Japan. In my experience, most people are in the narrow range of looking at Japan through rose-color glasses to being downright apathetic. People who care about such social issues of Japan are relatively rare.

    Japan bashing? Are you talking about the times when workers in Detroit paid to take swing at Japanese cars with a bat? How many decades ago is that? You'll have to refresh my memory on any current events where America has said racist things to Japan. To the best of my knowledge, they're not doing it NOW. I have rarely seen references to Japan in the form of ridicule.
    マイケル・クライトンの「ライジング・サン」がベストセラーとなって映画化されたり、経済的なライバルでは あるものの安全保障条約を締結した同盟国である日本を軍事的脅威であったソ連と比較してその脅威を煽るよう な報道も目につきました。
    また、解雇された労働者が日本人と間違えて韓国人移民を殺害したこともありましたね。被害者の家族にとって はなかなか忘れがたいことでしょう。
    繰り返しになりますが、差別問題を論じる場合に、常に「差別される側」の視点を忘れないことが大事です。あ なたは「自分の側」に立って考えていませんか?自らが「加害者側」に立たされた場合にも常に相手の側(被害 者)の視点を忘れないでください。

    最近の例では、アカデミー賞受賞作「Lost In Translation」があげられるでしょう。
    海外に住み少数派として差別問題に敏感にならざるを得ない日本人の中には、この映画を日本に対して差別的で あると捉える人が少なくありませんでした。アメリカの報道でも一部そのことが取り上げられていたと記憶して います。

    ただ、日本の経済力が相対的に衰退した影響で日本人が取り上げられることは比較的少なくなりま したね。
    これからは中国人がターゲットになっていくでしょう。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    There's a difference between acknowledging racism as a problem and actively participating in it. You tell me whether Japan has a tendency to do the former or the latter. Solving the problems would be great. But considering how long it's been going on, you have to honestly ask yourself what measures have actually been taken to prevent racism?
    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Well of course. But the ones doing the harm is the overwhelming majority in Japan.

    Sitting down to solve problems with mutual understanding would be great. We're (sort of) doing that now. Unless a body with political power pushes for change or that the Japanese come to their senses, that's not going to happen.
    在日韓国・朝鮮系の団体は大変強力な圧力団体を組織しています。あなたは在日韓国・朝鮮人がお笑いのネタに される番組をほとんど見たことがないでしょう?
    各国や社会には差別問題をめぐるそれぞれの実情や問題があるんですよ。
    Last edited by kkkktttt; Nov 26, 2005 at 15:35.

  10. #60
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    Bibinbahell: I agree with most of what you've said, at least, in the context in which I can understand them; I don't understand Japanese, so I can't really comment on your conversation with kkkktttt. Still, one part stuck out:

    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Japan bashing? Are you talking about the times when workers in Detroit paid to take swing at Japanese cars with a bat? How many decades ago is that? You'll have to refresh my memory on any current events where America has said racist things to Japan. To the best of my knowledge, they're not doing it NOW. I have rarely seen references to Japan in the form of ridicule.
    Gotta disagree here.

    examples:
    Banzai (produced in the UK, but some of its episodes were purchased by networks such as Comedy Central and Fox)

    Dean Koontz

    Death of Vincent Chin

    Also, from what I've heard, a lot of J-Pop/Rock fans have complained about their peers mocking Japanese musicians as being gay.


    You also mention the Detroit workers incident being a little outdated, but since time by itself is not an improver of moral standards, I'd ask, have there been any significant moves towards greater understanding and acceptance? I don't know myself, so I'm not putting you on the spot, or anything. Of course, in the Vincent Chin article which was dragged on into '87, it seemed like the case was a significant rallying point for APA activists, but what of white Americans? Again, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that racism doesn't disappear just through the passage of time alone.

    However, I think what you seem to be getting at is America as a whole allows for more discussions and awareness about racism because concepts of racism is there in their moral consciousness, which I agree with. I'm wondering: has there been any equivalent of a civil rights movement in Japan?


    Another point I want to make: just because I had examples of anti-Japanese discrimination doesn't downplay the significance of racism in any other part of the world, Japan included. Each nation, culture, subculture, etc. needs to be carefully considered.

  11. #61
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    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    マイケル・クライトンの「ライジング・サン」がベスト セラーとなって映画化されたり、経済的なライバルでは るも のの安全保障条約を締結した同盟国で る日本を軍事的 脅威で ったソ連と比較してその脅威を煽るような報道 も目につきました。
    また、解雇された労働者が日本人と間違えて韓国人移民 を殺害したことも りましたね。被害者の家族にとって はなかなか忘れがたいことでしょう。
    繰り返しになりますが、差別問題を論じる場合に、常に 「差別される側」の視点を忘れないことが大事です。 なたは「自分の側」に立って考えていませんか?自らが 「加害者側」に立たされた場合にも常に相手の側(被害 者)の視点を忘れないでください。

    最近の例では、アカデミー賞受賞作「Lost In Translation」が げられるでしょう。
    海外に住み少数派として差別問題に敏感にならざるを得 ない日本人の中には、この映画を日本に対して差別的で ると捉える人が少なく りませんでした。アメリカの 報道でも一部そのことが取り上げられていたと記憶して います。
    Actually, I have read several articles criticizing Rising Sun for it's one-sided presentation of the Japanese. Also, I don't think the movie was ever very popular so I still don't understand your point. Most people nowadays should understand what's wrong with it. And regarding that comparison to the Soviet Union, there are always nutjobs in every time period. Look what comparing Middle East to the fascists have done. I believe that a significant portion of the population will still criticize that. Now you keep telling me to look at the point of view from the victims as well as the criminals. Maybe you should tell that to your fellow Japanese instead of the people here. After all, they're the ones doing the harm. That almost seems like another blanket statement hinting that the Japanese are the real victims here.

    Funny that you should use the movie "Lost in Translation" as an example of racism against the Japanese. I constantly hear the Japanese claiming, "We're nothing like that!" while the people around me, who have been to Japan one way or another (because they like Japan), say "BULLs**t, you're not!" Whosever's opinion you'd accept is entirely up to you.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    ただ、日本の経済力が相対的に衰退した影響で日本人が 取り上げられることは比較的少なくなりましたね。
    これからは中国人がターゲットになっていくでしょう。
    I sure hope not.

    Quote Originally Posted by kkkktttt
    在日韓国・朝鮮系の団体は大変強力な圧力団体を組織し ています。 なたは在日韓国・朝鮮人がお笑いのネタに される番組をほとんど見たことがないでしょう?
    各国や社会には差別問題をめぐるそれぞれの実情や問題 が るんですよ。
    Oh, you mean media like : Book 1, Book 2, or Book 3? As explained in New York Times, it's not an isolated issue. Granted they're not television shows, but being on best seller list should say something about them.

    You obviously seem like a conservative since you're saying things are going just fine in Japan. Almost as if racism against the Koreans are non-existant.

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    Quote Originally Posted by lastmagi
    examples:
    Banzai (produced in the UK, but some of its episodes were purchased by networks such as Comedy Central and Fox)

    Dean Koontz

    Death of Vincent Chin

    Also, from what I've heard, a lot of J-Pop/Rock fans have complained about their peers mocking Japanese musicians as being gay.
    Those are interesting links. But please let me point out that I have never said racism is not a problem in the States. In fact, I believe I have said in a previous thread that racism is still an ongoing problem. The main difference is the people's reaction to it. Take a look at your link about Dean Koontz. The person writing that blog calls Dean Koontz a "racist f***tard." Looking at the comments, everyone agrees that being a racist makes you "a wanker of the highest order." Now imagine a blogger saying Dean Koontz is a hero because he "gave it to those dirty Japs. They had it coming." And then everyone gives out comments and examples of how the Japanese will always be inferior. I believe that's the situation in Japan.

    Quote Originally Posted by lastmagi
    However, I think what you seem to be getting at is America as a whole allows for more discussions and awareness about racism because concepts of racism is there in their moral consciousness, which I agree with. I'm wondering: has there been any equivalent of a civil rights movement in Japan?
    Yes, I agree that there is more discussions and awareness because Americans do recognize it as a problem. Japan, on the other hand, likes to sweep things under the rug thinking that it'll go away if you ignore it long enough. I think that it'll just make the issue fester until it explodes.

    Quote Originally Posted by lastmagi
    Another point I want to make: just because I had examples of anti-Japanese discrimination doesn't downplay the significance of racism in any other part of the world, Japan included. Each nation, culture, subculture, etc. needs to be carefully considered.
    This kkkktttt person doesn't think so. He probably thinks that Japan should be exempt from such racial equalities because Japan has been discriminated against in the past.

  13. #63
    Yuyurungul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Those are interesting links. But please let me point out that I have never said racism is not a problem in the States. In fact, I believe I have said in a previous thread that racism is still an ongoing problem. The main difference is the people's reaction to it. Take a look at your link about Dean Koontz. The person writing that blog calls Dean Koontz a "racist f***tard." Looking at the comments, everyone agrees that being a racist makes you "a wanker of the highest order." Now imagine a blogger saying Dean Koontz is a hero because he "gave it to those dirty Japs. They had it coming." And then everyone gives out comments and examples of how the Japanese will always be inferior. I believe that's the situation in Japan.
    Good point.

    This kkkktttt person doesn't think so. He probably thinks that Japan should be exempt from such racial equalities because Japan has been discriminated against in the past.
    That's a ridiculous proposition that any self-respecting civil rights activist/sociologist/intellectual creature would scoff at. Too bad I can't understand enough to argue back. sorry

    ignore newasian. his posts have been nothing but spam. if he keeps it up, i'm sure he'll be banned.

  14. #64
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Actually, I have read several articles criticizing Rising Sun for it's one-sided presentation of the Japanese. Also, I don't think the movie was ever very popular so I still don't understand your point. Most people nowadays should understand what's wrong with it. And regarding that comparison to the Soviet Union, there are always nutjobs in every time period. Look what comparing Middle East to the fascists have done. I believe that a significant portion of the population will still criticize that.
    当時の世論調査では、アメリカに対するもっとも深刻な脅威として、日本の経済力をあげた人がソ連の軍事力を あげた人を上回りました。
    あなたのまわりには分別のある人が多いのかもしれませんが、「日本と同様」にアメリカでも(あるいは世界の どの国でも)世論はメディアの扇動に影響を受けてしまうものです。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Now you keep telling me to look at the point of view from the victims as well as the criminals. Maybe you should tell that to your fellow Japanese instead of the people here. After all, they're the ones doing the harm. That almost seems like another blanket statement hinting that the Japanese are the real victims here.
    私の投稿履歴を参照してください。
    一例を挙げます。日本の方との議論です。

    Originally Posted by ralian
    I somehow feel that there is someone behind this anti Japan movement.
    Who or which organasation will benefit from this?
    それにしても、今回の反日デモに関して、だれか裏で工作しているような気がしますね。だれだと 思いますか。 大体、中国政府がデモを容認するなんておかしい話じゃ ないですか。この動きは、いずれ違う方向に向いていく ような気がしますねえ。

    以下が私の返答です。
    日本は、1930年代から15年もの長きにわたって中国を侵略してきました。これは「地上戦」であって、「 空襲」などとは違い実際に日本軍の軍人の「顔」が見えるわけです。憎しみが中国人民の心により深く刻み込ま れても不思議ではありません。
    日本の敗戦後も、内乱による混乱や「文化大革命」によ る惨劇が続き、日本軍による被害を訴える場もありませんでした。日中の国交が回復すると、国際情勢や経済援 助の必要性から、中国共産党は親日政策をとらざるを得ず、民衆の反日活動は禁止されました。
    もちろん、共産党政府の様々な思惑もあるでしょうが、いわば今初めて、中国の民衆が素朴な反日感情を発散す る機会を得たともいえます。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    Funny that you should use the movie "Lost in Translation" as an example of racism against the Japanese. I constantly hear the Japanese claiming, "We're nothing like that!" while the people around me, who have been to Japan one way or another (because they like Japan), say "BULLs**t, you're not!" Whosever's opinion you'd accept is entirely up to you.
    私自身はこの映画を差別的だとは思っていません。まあ、監督は日本社会に敬意は抱いていないとは思いますが 。
    日本でも、特に差別映画としては取り上げられていませんでした。繊細で敏感な一部の日本人が「差別」だと捉 えたのでしょう。
    日本における「外国人をお笑いのネタにする」番組をめぐる状況も同じようなものだと思います。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    I sure hope not.
    ジャパン・バッシングの後は「ジャパン・パッシング」あるいは「ジャパン・ナッシング」です。反発の後は嘲 笑というわけです。真摯な反省があるとは思えません。そうである以上、再び同じような事態が発生する危険性 はありますね。
    アメリカの政界やメディア界に対して、中国がいかにうまくロビー活動を仕掛けるかにもよってくるでしょうが 。


    Quote Originally Posted by Bibinbahell
    You obviously seem like a conservative since you're saying things are going just fine in Japan. Almost as if racism against the Koreans are non-existant.
    あなたの誤解です。
    そもそも強力な圧力団体が存在していること自体、差別問題が依然として存在していることの反映 です。

    あなたもお分かりの通り、私は「日本もアメリカも本質的には同じだ」といっているわけです。
    日本に差別がないなどと主張しているのならば、同時にアメリカにも差別問題は生じていないことになり、そも そもアメリカについてあなたとの議論が発生するはずがないじゃないですか。
    これらの問題は日本でのみ存在するという意見は偏りがあり事実ではないといいたいわけです。

    日本には依然として根深い差別問題があります。いわゆる在日問題だけではなく同和問題などの様々な問題が、 かつてのようなあからさまな態様ではないものの、しかし依然として社会に沈殿しています。
    また、外国人に対するアパート賃貸拒否などは生活の基本に関わるものだけに大変深刻な問題です 。
    その他、声をあげようにもあげられない不法滞在者に関する人権侵害など、そもそも実態が十分に把握されてい ない問題もあります。
    これらの問題を解決するためには、行政が積極的に介入できるような制度改正が必要です。日本は司法関係の予 算が他の先進諸国に比べて大変低く、法律が整備されてもその執行効率性が不十分であるという問題があります 。

    ただ、日本がこれらの問題に対して何も対応していないというのは誤りです。アメリカとは取り組み方に違いが あるので外からは分かりづらいかもしれませんが。
    同和問題に関する一例を挙げます。
    http://homepage2.nifty.com/z-sai/Opi...shiyoukyu.html

    また、ニューヨークタイムズの記事で「嫌韓流に対して主要メディアが反論をしていない」と指摘し、あたかも この本を容認しているかのような印象を与えていますが、これは事実に反します。
    日本には「黙殺」という言葉があります。「無視して殺す」という意味です。日本の主要メディアは「嫌韓流」 を黙殺したのです。メディア界は、新聞やテレビがこの本を大きく取り上げれば、たとえ批判的であっても、一 般に広く認知されることになり、かえって売り上げを伸ばしてしまうことを危惧しているわけです 。
    実際、この本の「売り文句」は「各出版社から過激すぎると、出版拒否された問題作」です。新聞や車内広告で さえ各社に拒否されたそうです。
    私自身は、これらの書籍を積極的に取り上げて公に議論すべきであるとの立場ですが。

    アメリカでもテレビとは違い、ラジオ番組などではあからさまな差別発言が乱舞しているのではないですか?車 社会のアメリカでは、ラジオメディアの影響力は依然として大変大きいと聞いています。

    繰り返しになりますが、各国家・社会はそれぞれに差別問題を抱え、おのおのその解決に苦悩しているわけです 。

  15. #65
    天才じゃん! blade_bltz's Avatar
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    There is a world of difference between Lost and Translation and the kind of racism Maciamo is talking about, and kkkktttt hasn't seemed to have caught on.

  16. #66
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    Quote Originally Posted by blade_bltz
    There is a world of difference between Lost and Translation and the kind of racism Maciamo is talking about, and kkkktttt hasn't seemed to have caught on.
    誰が何を基準に判断するかによるでしょう。
    ただ、繰り返しになりますが、私自身は「Lost in Translation」を差別映画だとは思いません。観光客誘致のための良い宣伝映画になるんじゃないか と思っているくらいです。
    日本人の私からすれば、描かれているシーンは特にエキゾチックなものではないので、作品のおもしろさを十分 に理解できたとは言えませんが。

    日本のお笑い番組との比較では、「AUSTIN POWERS」の方がふさわしかったかもしれません。

    あまりにもバカバカしい方が、現実味がなくて、かえって差別を煽るようなことにはならないのではとも思えま すが。
    Last edited by kkkktttt; Nov 28, 2005 at 08:46.

  17. #67
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    thats good.

  18. #68
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    The problem is that probably don't realise that this is taboo in Western societies. For Japanese people racism involves violence or discrimination. Just making fun of other races or express a feeling of superiority is not regaded as racism in Japan.
    I think I have the stronges counter available for this. Where-ever I am in Japan I display a position of superiority overy whom-ever I am dealing with, unless they are my elders in my particular circle. I display my position from beginning to end in situations such as reservations or check-in to hotels, seating at restuarants, rentals, club entries, anything to do with Koban or post-office, etc. These are places where I have been clearly discriminated against for being Kokujin however have the right to service. Since taking my place as being their senior I reflect to them what their responsibility is. If all else fails I pick up the mobile phone and call my very rich great uncle and he makes things happen

  19. #69
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    This is an interesting thread.

    What are these shows that supposedly give gaijin all katakana, or even all hiragana subtitles? Since I saw this thread I have been specifically looking out for shows with gaijin and ALL of them have them kanji and hiragana subtitles. Im not saying such shows dont exists, but from the first post I got the impression that it was the majority of shows with gaijin, and it certainly is not. The Bob Sapp example is the only one I knew of to illustrate your point.

    Also the use of katakana doesnt have the quite the connotation you said. It isnt necessarily negative at all. It is used for interjections like "daijoubu?!" (Are you all right?) and as you mentioned "Sugoi!" (awesome!) as well. Those arent particularly harsh or angry statements are they?

    As far as other countries' racism issues cancelling out Japans (no matter how big or small) that certainly isnt the case. However, such a conversation does lend itself to a "you're one to talk" type of situation. Putting the magnifying glass on Japan when there are other countries with racism problems is by no means out of the question (this IS a Japan refrence site after all), but maybe some people feel it could be done in a bit more delicate way. Some posts do seem as if the feeling behind them is that their home country is almost perfect but Japan is absolutely horrible.

    In regards to the tv program Goodness Gracious Me:
    Why is it that if they make fun of themselves its funny, but if you change the skin color of the producers, but leave the same content it is suddenly evil and wrong? I dont think that is right.
    What I complain about in Japan is not just that ordinary people should think in a racist way (this can happen everywhere), but that "racist views" are supported and advertised by the media or government. That is much worse, as it only reinforces the problem on a nationwide scale.
    Also, surely non-Indian viewers can watch the program, so couldnt the show have the same effect?

  20. #70
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    Racism in Japan is well-hidden.
    Japaneses tend to hate people with Black skin and ppl from South East Asia and South West Asia (Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalis.....)
    Japaneses favour white people really much... I was shocked.

  21. #71
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    I agree with you fully on this regard.

    Quote Originally Posted by lastmagi
    Bibinbahell: I agree with most of what you've said, at least, in the context in which I can understand them; I don't understand Japanese, so I can't really comment on your conversation with kkkktttt. Still, one part stuck out:



    Gotta disagree here.

    examples:
    Banzai (produced in the UK, but some of its episodes were purchased by networks such as Comedy Central and Fox)

    Dean Koontz

    Death of Vincent Chin

    Also, from what I've heard, a lot of J-Pop/Rock fans have complained about their peers mocking Japanese musicians as being gay.


    You also mention the Detroit workers incident being a little outdated, but since time by itself is not an improver of moral standards, I'd ask, have there been any significant moves towards greater understanding and acceptance? I don't know myself, so I'm not putting you on the spot, or anything. Of course, in the Vincent Chin article which was dragged on into '87, it seemed like the case was a significant rallying point for APA activists, but what of white Americans? Again, I don't know. I just wanted to point out that racism doesn't disappear just through the passage of time alone.

    However, I think what you seem to be getting at is America as a whole allows for more discussions and awareness about racism because concepts of racism is there in their moral consciousness, which I agree with. I'm wondering: has there been any equivalent of a civil rights movement in Japan?


    Another point I want to make: just because I had examples of anti-Japanese discrimination doesn't downplay the significance of racism in any other part of the world, Japan included. Each nation, culture, subculture, etc. needs to be carefully considered.

  22. #72
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by abs_car
    Racism in Japan is well-hidden.
    Japaneses tend to hate people with Black skin and ppl from South East Asia and South West Asia (Indians, Pakistanis, Nepalis.....)
    Japaneses favour white people really much... I was shocked.
    I am white, but still feel racism (though well-hidden) and experienced discrimination in Japan. But I suppose that it can only be worse for the people you mentioned. I noticed that there are very few Arabic people in Japan (not enough to be in the registered foreigners' statistics, so probably less than 5,000 people), and it doesn't surprise me. The Japanese unability to differentiate people from different countries, and good from bad people in each country (so basically they just see everybody as "gaikokujin") make them associate Arabs with terrorism and street violence as seen on TV (e.g. in Palestine or Algeria). That's probably why the Japanese autorities don't give many visas to the some 150-200 million Arabs on earth.

  23. #73
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by eien23
    What are these shows that supposedly give gaijin all katakana, or even all hiragana subtitles? Since I saw this thread I have been specifically looking out for shows with gaijin and ALL of them have them kanji and hiragana subtitles. Im not saying such shows dont exists, but from the first post I got the impression that it was the majority of shows with gaijin, and it certainly is not. The Bob Sapp example is the only one I knew of to illustrate your point.
    Note that I said that they use katakana for words normally using kanji or hiragana. I didn't say that everything is in katakana. Maybe 1/4 or 1/3 of the words are in katakana in a sentence where there shouldn't be katakana at all (or just 1/20). So if you can't read and understand everything written, how could you judge if some words should be in katakana or not ?

  24. #74
    wishing for a girlfriend Xkavar's Avatar
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    [sarcasm] You know what you COULD do, Maciamo? Research what a wandering 17th century ronin would wear, buy a cheap plastic sword, and go around town with an amused look on your face. If they ask you a yes or no question, don't give them an answer. Simply grunt, or nod your head. Be quiet and very polite otherwise. Learn how to close your eyes and bring your sword down in front of your lap as fast as you can, so you can perform this action whenever you suspect people make fun of you! If people walk around you in the middle of the street, walk as though they're meant to in the first place! If you see a policeman, take a minute and bow deeply to them before you walk on your way, to show proper deference to the law. If you see a "Help Wanted" sign, go in and ask if they have any use for a hungry samurai.

    That'll learn them bastards...[/sarcasm]

    Have you been verbally or physically attacked before, Maciamo?

  25. #75
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Xkavar
    [sarcasm] You know what you COULD do, Maciamo? Research what a wandering 17th century ronin would wear, buy a cheap plastic sword, and go around town with an amused look on your face. If they ask you a yes or no question, don't give them an answer. Simply grunt, or nod your head. Be quiet and very polite otherwise. Learn how to close your eyes and bring your sword down in front of your lap as fast as you can, so you can perform this action whenever you suspect people make fun of you! If people walk around you in the middle of the street, walk as though they're meant to in the first place! If you see a policeman, take a minute and bow deeply to them before you walk on your way, to show proper deference to the law. If you see a "Help Wanted" sign, go in and ask if they have any use for a hungry samurai.

    That'll learn them bastards...[/sarcasm]
    When I go back to Japan, I will probably give it a try.

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