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  1. #1
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Question Could Japanese "holocaust-deniers" be arrested in Europe ?

    BBC News : Austria holds 'Holocaust denier'

    Quote Originally Posted by BBC
    British revisionist historian David Irving is being held in Austria under laws against denying the Holocaust.

    An interior ministry spokesman said police in the province of Styria acted on a warrant issued in 1989 to arrest him last Friday.

    Mr Irving was on his way to give a lecture in the capital, Vienna.

    In his books, Mr Irving has argued that the scale of the extermination of the Jews by the Nazis in World War II has been exaggerated.

    He also claimed that Nazi leader Adolf Hitler knew nothing of the Holocaust.

    He told a libel hearing in London in 2000 that there had been no gas chambers at the Auschwitz camp.
    ...
    The chairman of the Holocaust Educational Trust, Lord Greville Janner, said he hoped the move would "lead to a successful prosecution".

    The head of the Holocaust Memorial Day Trust said denial was not a matter of opinion.

    "Austrian law demands incisive action to protect its citizens from a repeat of the past," he added.
    Many Japanese people, including high-ranking politicians, deny or play down the scale of many of the Japanese atrocities committed during WWII, the most famous of which (but accounting for only about 1% of the victims) is the Nanjing Massacre of 1937. Some Japanese historians writing government-approved school textbooks talk of "Japanese advance" rather than invasion, of the "Nanjing Incident" rather than massacre, and completely leave out most or all other atrocities, which left more casualties than the Nazi holocaust. Such Japanese also insist that the Japanese Emperor (Hirohito) was completely unaware of what was happening, or if he knew he had no power to stop it (which is of course false, given his divine status, and as explained by his biographer Herbet Bix in his book Hirohito and the making of modern Japan).

    In my view, such people are as much holocaust deniers as David Irving, and more dangerous to society, as they proseltise their ideas in schools, reaching millions of teenagers with little critical sense.

    Governor of Tokyo Shintaro Ishihara has long played down the scale of the Nanjing Massacre and uttered many racist comments. Yesterday, the newly appointed Chief Cabinet Secretary Shinzo Abe declared that "The government should not look into the responsibility of the accused Class-A war criminals honored at Tokyo's Yasukuni Shrine" (see article).

    It would be utterly hypocritical for the Austrian, British or any other country's government to arrest and prosecute people like David Irving, but not Japanese historians, politicians or other individuals denying or playing the Japanese Holocaust, the responsibility of the emperor or paying homage to convicted class-A war criminals. If the Austrian authorities have the power to arrest a British citizen for what he says about the German Holocaust, then they have the power to arrest Japanese citizens on the same grounds. I want to see all Japanese holocaust deniers arrested when they set foot in Europe, or the immediate release of anybody held for similar charges.

    I think that Germany, Belgium and several other European countries have similar laws against holocaust deniers. The Japanese holocaust is no exception. It was part of the same war, and Japan was allied to Nazi Germany, and exterminate more people than the Nazi did according the the most reliable estimates. (=> see thread Japan is worse than Germany and Has Japan killed more foreign civilians in WWII than any other country in history ? )

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  2. #2
    Decommissioned ex-admin thomas's Avatar
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    As a matter of legal principle, national laws are to be applied to every person within territorial borders, regardless of the person's nationality - unless international treaties or bilateral agreements stipulate something else. Therefore, non-Austrian citizens as well are subject to the stipulations of the Austrian "Wiederbetaetigungsgesetze" (a set of laws banning national-socialist activities such as the dissemination of Nazi propaganda, the denial of Nazi atrocities committed during WWII, even the display of Nazi swastikas, etc).

    As far as I remember, this is not the first time Mr. Irving has been arrested in Austria. I see no reason why Japanese holocaust deniers setting foot onto European soil (and committing these crimes in a European country*, such as in this case, Austria) should be exempted from these provisions.

    As an Austrian citizen I am quite proud of the fact that the judicial authorities in Austria seem to have changed their approach to the strict application of the "Wiederbetaetigungsgesetze" (probably a generational change within state prosecution). The number of cases against former and neo-Nazis has been surging lately, penalties have been significantly tightened.


    * Mr. Irving disseminates his revisionist historical views not only through his books, but also in extended lecturing tours he holds all over the world. It seems he has been arrested by Austrian authorities in the course of such a tour.

  3. #3
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by thomas
    I see no reason why Japanese holocaust deniers setting foot onto European soil (and committing these crimes in a European country*, such as in this case, Austria) should be exempted from these provisions.

    * Mr. Irving disseminates his revisionist historical views not only through his books, but also in extended lecturing tours he holds all over the world. It seems he has been arrested by Austrian authorities in the course of such a tour.
    So if a notorious holocaust denier visits Austria and does not raise the subject while in Austria, then nothing can be done against him/her ?

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    The Geezer Sensuikan San's Avatar
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    I dunno about Austria, but ...

    German/Canadian Holocaust denier/Activist Ernst Zundel was recently deported from this country after many years of activity ... and was met by German Police.

    He is now, I believe, on trial in his homeland.

    ジョン
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  5. #5
    Decommissioned ex-admin thomas's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    So if a notorious holocaust denier visits Austria and does not raise the subject while in Austria, then nothing can be done against him/her ?
    Most national legislations adhere to the territorial principle: all the crimes committed (by its own citizens or foreign nationals likewise) on national territories can be prosecuted. Some countries extend this principle and prosecute criminal cases committed by their own nationals in other countries (I'm aware of such regulations in regard to sexual crimes and sex tourism; but then again, these regulations are based on international agreements).

    Prosecuting any kind of crime committed by any national anywhere is legally not feasible. If I'm not wrong, Belgium has/has had such a law in regard to human rights violations. Logically, the scope of criminal cases that can be brought in front of national courts has to be limited. For this reason and in the light of the territorial principle you can't do much against a law-abiding holocaust denier, unless there's an international arrest warrant for crimes committed elsewhere.

  6. #6
    目録 Index's Avatar
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    Good link Maciamo, to the Japan Tmes article. It just shows how pathetic the Japanese governments (public) attempts at justifying the PM's visit to Yasukuni really are.

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    Question

    Quote Originally Posted by Index
    Good link Maciamo, to the Japan Tmes article. It just shows how pathetic the Japanese governments (public) attempts at justifying the PM's visit to Yasukuni really are.

    wtf
    You know nothing about Yasukuni shrine.

    If Bush visits the tomb at Arlington National Cemetery as representative of all the people, are you offended?

    If you hate the US, what about France?

    If Chirac visits the tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris(?), are you offended?


    It is crude intervention in Japan's affairs that China and Korea
    are against Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni.

    EVERY NATION HAS THE RIGHT TO HONOR ITS WAR DEAD.


    btw, I always laugh whenever I see Westerners talking about the past crimes in earnest and think it is meaningless for both people, them and the Japanese. hehe..

    Let's have progressive ideas.
    We live in the present, not the past.

  8. #8
    目録 Index's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokyoite
    wtf
    You know nothing about Yasukuni shrine.
    It's irrelevant if I know anything about Yasukuni shrine, since I was not referring to it. You know nothing about politics.
    If Bush visits the tomb at Arlington National Cemetery as representative of all the people, are you offended?
    I'm only offended by stupidity. This is something you seem to know a lot about.
    It is crude intervention in Japan's affairs that China and Korea
    are against Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni.
    What is crude about it? It's completely normal for states to criticise other states when its in their interests. It has nothing to do with Japan's affairs, but relations between states. Are you really so arrogant and deluded to think that the Chinese or Korean governments care about what you as an individual think or do?
    Let's have progressive ideas.
    Where's yours?
    We live in the present, not the past.
    So you are suggesting that state and institutional memory is wiped every generation? Do you really think that the length of one human life is anything more than the blink of an eye in terms of the length of relations between Japan and China?

  9. #9
    Yuyurungul
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tokyoite
    wtf
    You know nothing about Yasukuni shrine.

    If Bush visits the tomb at Arlington National Cemetery as representative of all the people, are you offended?

    If you hate the US, what about France?

    If Chirac visits the tomb of the Unknown Soldier in Paris(?), are you offended?


    It is crude intervention in Japan's affairs that China and Korea
    are against Koizumi's visit to Yasukuni.

    EVERY NATION HAS THE RIGHT TO HONOR ITS WAR DEAD.


    btw, I always laugh whenever I see Westerners talking about the past crimes in earnest and think it is meaningless for both people, them and the Japanese. hehe..

    Let's have progressive ideas.
    We live in the present, not the past.
    Tokyoite, your comment is exactly the kind of ignorance that I despise the most. You provide no arguments, only meaningless assumptions. You provide no logical premises, only faulty conclusions. Basically, you're a second-hand mouthpiece for already-blind ultranationalists.

    Enough of this. There are other threads that are more relevant than this, which is more about ramifications of war-crime-denial (not justification, however ill-founded); either refine your comments so that they'd be more relevant to the topic, or redirect yourself to one of the war atrocities threads where we can have a discussion (although your lack of following up on obviously volatile remarks, as in This One and This One suggests a lack of thought to the matter anyway).

    PS- adding "cute" smiley with your derogatory and offensive comment makes your post look even more ridiculous. Laugh all you want- you're only digging yourself in deeper.

  10. #10
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    ホロコーストに比類しうる人類史上の惨事は他にも数多く りま す。
    Maciamoさんは、欧州帝国主義勢力によるアフリカやア <潟J大陸での先住民虐殺による被害者数について熱心 ノ議論していましたが、その際の なたの立場はいうな 黷ホ「被害者数縮小派」でした。これは反対の立場から ゥれば「反動的」となります。被害者の子孫達がユダヤ lほどの政治的・経済的影響力を有していたとしたなら ホ、これらの問題に関しても同様の法律が制定されてい 驍ナしょうし、 なたは逮捕・投獄されているかもしれ ワせん。

    私は、 らゆる問題を含めて表現の自由は最大限に保証 されなければならないと思います。専門的な知識を有し ていないので くまで仮定の話ですが、もしもホロコーストに誇張された部分、 るいは事実ではない部分が るのだとしたら、それは研究・議論を通じて修正される べきで ると思います。
    被害の実態についてその真相に迫ることと、事実を歪曲 ・縮小することは本来全く違います。批判的検証が一切 許されないのだとしたら言論弾圧と何が違うのかという のが私の率直な感想です。
    もちろん、ネオナチなど暴力的な人種差別とのつながり の問題も るのでしょうが、そのような問題と正当な歴 史的検証とは区別されるべきで ると思います。

    日本の中国侵略に関していえば、中国自身が日本による 被害に誇張が ることは実質的に認めています。
    しかし、実際の被害の規模が、中国共産党政府が唱える それのたとえ十分の一だとしても、日本の犯罪性自体に は影響を与えるものでは りません。
    逆にいえば、共産党政府が、批判的立場からの検証にも 耐えうるような事実を踏まえた上で日本に対して歴史的 批判を加えるならば、石原慎太郎など日本の右翼は反論 の余地がなくなり立つ瀬を失うことになります。

  11. #11
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    ホロコーストに関する事実ついていえば、このような法律を制定して問題を批判的に論ずること自体をタブー視 しなければならないほど、その論拠は脆いものなのでしょうか?
    それとも「荒唐無稽な批判」を無分別に信じ込むようなバカが欧州にはそれほど多いということなのでしょうか ?
    または、その背景として依然として根深いユダヤ人差別の思想が欧州には沈殿しているということなのでしょう か?

    もう一つ、批判的に論ずること自体を「法律的に禁止」された歴史的問題は、ホロコースト以外にあるのでしょ うか?
    Last edited by kkkktttt; Nov 18, 2005 at 23:46.

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