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Thread: English-friendly Japan

  1. #76
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijin 06
    For someone with a self-proclaimed high IQ you are having surprising difficulty grasping the concepts of this thread.
    As far as I know, I am the one who started this thread, and I am the one who decide what this thread is about. Are you saying that you know better than me what I had in mind and meant when I started this thread ?

    Did you miss the bit where we agreed that it is much easier to move from one European language to another than it is to move between a European language and Japanese?
    That's completely irrelevant. I have learnt many European languages and Japanese, and Japanese is not much more difficult. It's just an impression that people who haven't learnt it have. In fact, Japanese has so much more words that come from English that once you get used to the katakana pronuciation (I guess after a few weeks in Japan), Japanese becomes more similar to English that most European languages for many daily things. You mentioned going the hairdresser.

    How do you say 'haircut' in Japanese ? 'Heakatto" or just "katto" from the English. Is that more or less difficult to understand than the French "coupe de cheveux" or Spanish "corte de pelo" or Italian "taglio" or German "Haarschnitt" ? I suppose that any English speaker would say easier.
    There thousands of daily words in Japanese that come from English : doa (door), te-buru (table), gaidobukku (guidebook), mauzu (mouse), konpyuta- (computer), sofuto (software), ea-kon (air-con) ju-su (juice), rentaka- (rent-a-car), pen (pen), kontakuto lenzu (contact lenses), wain (wine), kyabetsu (cabbage), sukedyu-ru (schedule), kamera (camera), no-to (notebook), surippa (slippers), handobaggu (handbag), furaipan (frying pan), shawa- (shower), bakettsu (bucket), nettowa-ku (network), sokkusu (socks), pantsu (pants), ka-digan (cardigan), sha-tsu (shirt), etc.

    I could make a huge list and compare them to the words in French, Italian, Spanish, German and Dutch, and you'd see that most of them are completely different from English. I'll just compare the above with French, as I don't have time to do everything (keep in mind that the pronuciation of French is completely different from English for the same spelling, and that someone pronoucing a word with an English accent will almost never be understood) :

    door : porte
    table : table
    guidebook : guide de voyage
    computer : ordinateur
    software : logiciel
    mouse : souris
    air con : climatisation
    juice : jus
    rent-a-car : voiture de location
    pen : stylo
    contact lenses : lentilles
    wine : vin
    cabbage : choux
    schedule : agenda/emploi du temps
    camera : appareil photo
    notebook : cahier
    slippers : pantoufles
    handbag : sac a main
    frying pan : poele
    shower : douche
    bucket : seau
    network : reseau
    socks : chausettes
    pants (US) : pantalon
    cardigan : gillet
    shirt : chemise

    Being a native speaker of French, and being also fluent in English and Italian and conversational in Spanish and German, I know that the vast majority of the thousands of katakana words used the most commonly in Japanese come from English, and that these are usually very different from their European equivalent. This further makes Japan, and indeed Japanese language, more English-friendly. I have met a lot of French people in Japan (and discussed on French forums), and I found that those whose English was not good (or inexistent), had a notable disadvantage to learn Japanese. They didn't have the head start of the thousands of katakana words. Maybe it's difficult to realise that when you only speak English.
    Last edited by Maciamo; Oct 28, 2005 at 10:20.

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  2. #77
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    As far as I know, I am the one who started this thread, and I am the one who decide what this thread is about. Are you saying that you know better than me what I had in mind and meant when I started this thread ?
    No, I think you are having problems understanding the posts in this thread, even when they are quite simple.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    That's completely irrelevant. I have learnt many European languages and Japanese, and Japanese is not much more difficult. It's just an impression that people who haven't learnt it have. In fact, Japanese has so much more words that come from English that once you get used to the katakana pronuciation (I guess after a few weeks in Japan), Japanese becomes more similar to English that most European languages for many daily things. You mentioned going the hairdresser.
    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Maybe it's difficult to realise that when you only speak English.
    Maybe it is difficult for you to realise that Japan is not English-friendly given you speak Japanese and learnt at least some before you came?

    Or are you arrogant enough to believe you can put yourself in my situation situation and see it better than the way I can see it myself?

    "I am Maciamo and I can tell you that you had no difficulty in any of these situations - ordering from a menu, visiting a barber, understand the pricing options on furniture in Tokyu Hands, understanding a place name, understanding what the words on the adverts in real estate agents windows.

    My opinion is right and if your opinion differs then it is wrong because I speak English and Italian and and am conversational in Spanish and German as well as - crucically - speaking Japanese."

  3. #78
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijin 06
    Maybe it is difficult for you to realise that Japan is not English-friendly given you speak Japanese and learnt at least some before you came?
    I just learnt the kanas and a few basic greetings about one month before coming, like I had done for any other country where I was going to live.

    "I am Maciamo and I can tell you that you had no difficulty in any of these situations - ordering from a menu, visiting a barber, understand the pricing options on furniture in Tokyu Hands, understanding a place name, understanding what the words on the adverts in real estate agents windows.
    If you tried a bit, you'd see that it's not that difficult, and often there will be some English-speaking staff. Maybe you've just been to the wrong places. Don't expect people speak your language in a country where it's not an official language. Again "English-friendly" has so little to do with "English-speaking" country. That's what you don't get. I seriously doubt that if you had to deal with French- or Italian-speaking staff (who didn't speak English as is the norm), you'd have easier to make yourself understood than in Japan.

    My opinion is right and if your opinion differs then it is wrong because I speak English and Italian and and am conversational in Spanish and German as well as - crucically - speaking Japanese."
    It certainly helps me see things from a broader angle.

  4. #79
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    I'd fed up of discussing with someone who will never accept anything but their own point of view. Why start a discussion if you are unwilling to discuss anything?

    For your information I've travelled widely in Europe and Asia and had far less problems communicating than in Japan. So I am comparing like from like based on personal experience, whereas you are speaking from conjecture only.

    As for your frankly insulting suggestion that I have not "tried a bit". Do you think I did not want any of these things (meals, hair cuts, double beds) etc? Do you think I didn't try to communicate with the people I was dealing with? Maybe you don't interact with people much and don't think others do but you're wrong on this point too.

    As for

    "Don't expect people speak your language in a country where it's not an official language."

    I don't expect that at all. Again I re-iterate for the third time in this thread this is not a slur on Japan, or a criticism at all. I don't exepct everyone should speak English, nor do I expect them to! I really don't see how I can make this clearer.

    However the fact that so few people speak English makes this a difficult country for those of who do not speak Japanese to be in, so it is not English-friendly.

    Anyway, this is my last word on this matter as I can't be bothered arguing you. You will doubtless post again and have the last word, and you're welcome to it.

  5. #80
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Gaijin 06
    I'd fed up of discussing with someone who will never accept anything but their own point of view. Why start a discussion if you are unwilling to discuss anything?
    I feel exactly the same way about you.

    I will repeat it a last time; the title "English-friendly Japan" is intended to mean "Japan is more accommodating to English speakers than speakers of any other languages (except maybe readers of traditional Chinese characters like in H-K and Taiwan or well-educated mainland Chinese). Do you agree or disagree with that ?

    My intention was never to say that Japan is easy to live and communciate in any given situation for an English-speaker (well, one that does not speak Japanese, otherwise it's obviously easy).

    There are 4 main points in my thread :

    1) Public signs, government websites, etc. are translated in English if they are translated (virtually never in French, German, Arabic, Hindi, Thai or whatever). => English is the first language of translation and English signs are common enough to find some about anywhere you go in big cities and toursitical areas.

    2) The Japanese government encourages more the learning of English at school than any other language. As a matter of fact, all Japanese have been learning English (only) at school for the last few decades.

    3) Japanese language uses more words imported from English than any other language (except Chinese if kanji compounds are counted as 'Chinese words'). There are thousands of English words used in daily life in Japanese. It does not mean that English speakers will understand Japanese. It means that English speakers have a slight advantage on speakers of other languages regarding vocabulary, and are more likely to be understood if they say a word they don't know in their language than speakers of most the 6,000+ languages in the world.

    4) Because of the above mentioned, the Japanese government seem to regard English as if it had a 'special status', similar to that of a minor official language in a multilingual country (like Belgium, Switzerland, Canda, India, China...). It does not mean anybody, or even a majority of the people can speak English. English does not have such a special status in Continental European countries, as I explained in post #41.

    Do you fundamentally disagree with any of these points ?

    I apologise if I made it sound like Japan was the most English-friendly speaking on earth, or a country where English speakers would never have trouble communicating with locals. I have tried (in vain) to explain that it was not what I meant. I hope that is clear now.

  6. #81
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    Maciamo. For someone who is so apparently 'gifted', I find it extraordinary that you cannot understand how pompous, arrogant and condescending you appear in the eyes of so many 'lesser mortals' who read your comments. Can you not see at all that the tone of your comments consistently alienates a large number of people? To me this doesn't come across as particularly intelligent behaviour at all.

    Why should you decide what can and can't be discussed in this thread? It makes not a single bit of difference that you started it. If the discussion couldn't be widened in this or other threads, then this forum would very quickly stagnate and die. It's the introduction of new or interesting points and broader opinions that keeps a thread interesting and constantly changing.

    Finally, it makes no difference whatsoever that you are the webmaster, editor, administrator or great and omnipotent god of this website. A ten year old child can make a website - anyone can. It adds absolutely no credability to your views whatsoever.

  7. #82
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverpoint
    Maciamo. For someone who is so apparently 'gifted', I find it extraordinary that you cannot understand how pompous, arrogant and condescending you appear in the eyes of so many 'lesser mortals' who read your comments.
    First of all, IQ and EQ are completely different things. My EQ (capability to understand people's feelings/emotions) is probably under average. But if you ask me, I never had the impression of being "pompous, arrogant and condescending". What made you think that ?

    Can you not see at all that the tone of your comments consistently alienates a large number of people?
    No. Why ? Not all threads are meant to be discussed. Some are articles meant to be read. I appreciate feedback, but not people who try to destroy my arguments just because they don't agree with the title based on their own feelings, without really trying to understand the message of my article.

    I am pretty sure that if my title had been "Japan is more accommodating to English speakers than to speakers of other languages", there wouldn't have been the stupid arguments and misunderstanding above (I will therefore add it). But in my views, a title should ideally be short and catchy, even if it does not reflect exactly the content of the thread. In fact, if the title said it all, there would be no need to write a long article at all.

    Why should you decide what can and can't be discussed in this thread? It makes not a single bit of difference that you started it.
    There is no reason to argue that "English speakers can have a hard time communicating with non-English-speaking Japanese" when it was never part of the subject of the thread. I never disagree with that. Yet, Mikecash, Gaijin Punch and Gaijin 06 all came up with that argument, because for them "English-friendly" had that meaning - but not for me, and I explained many times that it was not what I intended to discuss. Now if they want to talk about how hard it can be for someone who doesn't speak Japanese to deal with everyday situation in Japan, fine with me, but in another thread. Anyway, I never disagreed with that. Mikecash argued that most signs in Japan were in Japanese only. I didn't deny it either. But it can't be denied English signs are relatively common, even if they only make 1% of all signs.

    Finally, it makes no difference whatsoever that you are the webmaster, editor, administrator or great and omnipotent god of this website. A ten year old child can make a website - anyone can. It adds absolutely no credability to your views whatsoever.
    So what ? Did I say otherwise ?

  8. #83
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    As far as I know, I am the one who started this thread, and I am the one who decide what this thread is about.
    Is this JREF Forums? Or Maciamo's Ego Blog, with comments allowed so long as they don't annoy the overlord?



    How do you say 'haircut' in Japanese ?
    I say ŽU”¯.

  9. #84
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverpoint
    Maciamo. For someone who is so apparently 'gifted', I find it extraordinary that you cannot understand how pompous, arrogant and condescending you appear in the eyes of so many 'lesser mortals' who read your comments. Can you not see at all that the tone of your comments consistently alienates a large number of people? To me this doesn't come across as particularly intelligent behaviour at all.
    Hear, hear!

    There are definitely people who have been very put off by Maciamo's pompous, arrogant and condescending tone....which has, in my opinion, grown incredibly over the last two or three months. An inability to distinguish between statements of fact, opinion and conjecture and a tendency to extrapolate isolated, anecdotal personal experience to Universal Truths doesn't help matters any either.

    Even very recent newcomers such as Gaijin06 immediately spot it and are put off by it. Recently there have been some posts wondering "Gee...where did everybody go?"....Well, I suggest that our high-horse riding, narcissistic, egotistical omnipresent UberModerator may figure into it somewhere.

  10. #85
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Same reply as to Silverpoint.

  11. #86
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    Well...

    Now I don't feel as bad for my 'discussion' and some things I said a few months back.

  12. #87
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo


    There is no reason to argue that "English speakers can have a hard time communicating with non-English-speaking Japanese" when it was never part of the subject of the thread. I never disagree with that. Yet, Mikecash, Gaijin Punch and Gaijin 06 all came up with that argument
    I did? Strange...I don't remember it.

    Now if they want to talk about how hard it can be for someone who doesn't speak Japanese to deal with everyday situation in Japan, fine with me, but in another thread.
    Because only admins are allowed to cause threads to drift.

  13. #88
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    I did? Strange...I don't remember it.
    Maybe not explicitely, but you supported GaijinPunch's comments and said :

    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    I just think you overstate the case of how English-friendly Japan is.
    ... which means you agreed with GaijinPunch that in spite of the numerous English websites, signs, TV/radio/newspapers, and gigantic Eikaiwa industry, Japan is not so "English-friendly" because most Japanese cannot speak English very well (or at all).

    Because only admins are allowed to cause threads to drift.
    I am not sure I understand what this means. But I am trying my best justly NOT to let the thread drift offtopic.

  14. #89
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    I never had the impression of being "pompous, arrogant and condescending". What made you think that ?
    The fact that you even need me to tell you, just underlines the problem. How can you not see that constantly harking on about your superior intellect, knowledge, experience etc. comes across badly to other people.

    There is no reason to argue that "English speakers can have a hard time communicating with non-English-speaking Japanese" when it was never part of the subject of the thread. I never disagree with that. Yet, Mikecash, Gaijin Punch and Gaijin 06 all came up with that argument, because for them "English-friendly" had that meaning - but not for me, and I explained many times that it was not what I intended to discuss.
    Believe it or not Maciamo, JREF is not just a two-way discussion between yourself on one side, and the rest of the forum members on the other. You simply cannot dictate what people are and aren't allowed to say. As I mentioned previously, threads grow, evolve and expand their scope as time goes on, with new related opinions and issues being introduced. This is what makes forums so interesting. You can raise one point, and then someone introduces another perspective to the debate. If you consider Gaijin Punch, Gaijin 06 and others' comments to be going off-topic then your definition of what is "off-topic" is so narrow as to be almost unworkable.

    So what ? Did I say otherwise ?
    You have puffed away on several occasions in different threads about how you have edited travel guides, when basically all you've done is make a bunch of web pages. Something which I or anyone else could if we had the inclination. If you don't feel it makes you more authoritative, why did you feel the need to tell everyone in the first place?

    Edit: By the way, someone just wiped a load of reputation points off my score (not that I really care). Strangely, no red dots - just the total was decreased as if someone had edited it manually. I assume that was you?

  15. #90
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverpoint
    The fact that you even need me to tell you, just underlines the problem. How can you not see that constantly harking on about your superior intellect, knowledge, experience etc. comes across badly to other people.
    Why should that come across badly ? Is that a problem of envy ? Experience and knowledge can be filled if one has the motivation. My viewpoint is that people who do not have the knowledge or experience about the particular things we are discussing just don't care enough or lack the motivation to get them.

    Believe it or not Maciamo, JREF is not just a two-way discussion between yourself on one side, and the rest of the forum members on the other.
    Who makes you think that ? There are plenty of people with whom I never argue and usually agree. The gang that is always pick holes in my posts is always the same : you, mikecash, CC1, and the occasional "Me-too" (Gaijin 06...). In fact, I find that GaijinPunch does not really intend to fight, but often helps you and mikecash to start criticising me.

    You have puffed away on several occasions in different threads about how you have edited travel guides, when basically all you've done is make a bunch of web pages. Something which I or anyone else could if we had the inclination. If you don't feel it makes you more authoritative, why did you feel the need to tell everyone in the first place?
    Do you seriously think that "anyone" has the time, energy, experience, dedication and capabilities to create not "a few webpages" as you said, but several hundreds of such travel pages like I did (in less than one year, as I did for Japan, England and Belgium) ? FYI, I haven't found any other websites with more detailed online guides of Japan and Belgium. For Japan, there is japan-guide.com, but the pages are much shorter and there are less destinations. I think you have no idea of the hundreds of hours of toil this demands. The research work is just huge. The fact that so few detailed guides of Japan exist, despite the great number of Western Japan fans, somehow shows that few people have the motivation or ability to make such a guide. I am conscious that my English is not top (not like a Lonely Planet writer) as I am not an native speaker. But I do my best, and don't ask anything in return for the free information provided, but some appreciation.

    Note that this is the Japan Reference and Eupedia Forum, so it is a bit normal that the admin should mention about his Japan Reference Travel Guide and Eupedia Belgium & England Guides. It's not boasting. It's just a bit of self-advertisement by letting forum members know that these guides exist on this website. Occasionally it serves to prove my interests for Japan, or like here, that I have travelled enough around Japan to be able to give a reasonably fair judgement of how common are English signs nationwide (as mikecash was saying things like "Japan=Tokyo!", insinuating that I didn't know the rest of Japan).

  16. #91
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Why should that come across badly ? Is that a problem of envy ?
    I give up...

  17. #92
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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    ... which means you agreed with GaijinPunch that in spite of the numerous English websites, signs, TV/radio/newspapers, and gigantic Eikaiwa industry, Japan is not so "English-friendly" because most Japanese cannot speak English very well (or at all).
    I can't recall having expressed an opinion on the numerous English websites, TV/radio/newspapers, and gigantic Eikaiwa industry at all in this thread. Nor have I expressed an opinion on spoken English ability in Japan.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    (as mikecash was saying things like "Japan=Tokyo!", insinuating that I didn't know the rest of Japan).
    Actually, I believe he said "Japan != Tokyo".

    "!=" is the 'not equal to' or 'inequality' relational operator, most commonly found in imperative programming. Your example means the opposite.

  19. #94
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    Given the other misrepresentations of my statements he has made, the != thing hardly seemed worth mentioning.

  20. #95
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverpoint
    Actually, I believe he said "Japan != Tokyo".

    "!=" is the 'not equal to' or 'inequality' relational operator, most commonly found in imperative programming. Your example means the opposite.
    That does not change the message. I understood that he was being sarcastic about Japan being reduced to Tokyo. If that meant that Japan is not equal to Tokyo, it's basically the same, without the sarcasm.

    I didn't know that mikecash was so verse in computer programming. "!=" is not really the kind of standard sign one expect to find on a forum like this one. I personally prefer "/=" to indicate inequality in prosaic writings (not as opposed to "poetic" but as opposed to "programming language").

  21. #96
    Banned Mike Cash's Avatar
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    No offense, Maciamo. You're hardly the first person to think I'm a dumba$$.

    I'll try to use signs that conform with your preferences in the future.

  22. #97
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    No offense, Maciamo. You're hardly the first person to think I'm a dumba$$.
    I apologise if you didn't think that Japan is not English-friendly in the way I described it.

    Apart from teasing comments like "Romaji != English" or "Tokyo != Japan", I was pretty pissed by some of your rather insulting comments in this thread, starting with :

    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    Amen. It gets amazing tiresome and tedious to see each and every thing about Japan constantly analyzed in minute detail as it compares to each and every European country.
    This forum is not only about Japan, but has also been dedicated Europe since the beginning of 2005 (hence the new logo with 'Eupedia' and new 'Europe Forum' categories). I find it quite offensive that you describe a comparison between the 2 parts of the world to which this forum is dedicated as "amazing[ly ?] tiresome and tedious". If you don't like the few threads with such comparisons, why not just ignore them and concentrate on others of the thousands of threads on the forum ? You can't always like the topic of discussion, but everyone is free to start a discussion about what they want (yes, even the admin !).

    Then, the following comments (especially the tone) were well beyond what I consider acceptable :

    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    Is this JREF Forums? Or Maciamo's Ego Blog, with comments allowed so long as they don't annoy the overlord?
    Quote Originally Posted by mikecash
    Hear, hear!

    There are definitely people who have been very put off by Maciamo's pompous, arrogant and condescending tone....
    ...
    Well, I suggest that our high-horse riding, narcissistic, egotistical omnipresent UberModerator may figure into it somewhere.
    And after that, you are still trying to culpabilise me on thinking you are a dumbas$ (which I never said). I was not the one to start the provocations, and I didn't call you names as you did ("Maciamo's pompous, arrogant and condescending tone", "narcissistic, egotistical omnipresent UberModerator"...)

    The only thing I said about you that may have vexed you to the point of insulting me is that you were trying to sabotage my thread with comments which I have shown to be mostly irrelevant ("Romaji != English", "Tokyo != Japan"...) or for provocating me in the first place (" It gets amazing tiresome and tedious...").

    What is more, it is not the first thread in which you behave like that with me (usually also exchanging disparaging comments about me with Silverpoint).

  23. #98
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    Quote Originally Posted by Silverpoint
    Edit: By the way, someone just wiped a load of reputation points off my score (not that I really care). Strangely, no red dots - just the total was decreased as if someone had edited it manually. I assume that was you?

    Don't feel bad Silverpoint...the same things has happened to me! I can only suppose that Maciamo must have done this as there are no red dots nor are there any comments under reputation. I just noticed that my rep went down by 100 points though. It is a sad state of affairs when you can not post your true opinions on this site. Message here? Piss off the GOD and he will punish you...but anonymosly (strange thing to do don't you think?)

    Ya' know...this isn't the first time something rather sneaky happened here on JREF...I remember being banned by one user with Admin rights just because he got his feelings hurt before! The same people who ***** and moan about corrupt officials in Japan, abusing the system here, but not having the heart to stand up for his actions!

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    Quote Originally Posted by CC1
    Ya' know...this isn't the first time something rather sneaky happened here on JREF...I remember being banned by one user with Admin rights just because he got his feelings hurt before!
    How extraordinary! The same thing also happened to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by Maciamo
    Apart from teasing comments like "Romaji != English" or "Tokyo != Japan", I was pretty pissed by some of your rather insulting comments in this thread
    Maciamo, you don't have to use direct language to be offensive to other people. Many people feel that the language that you often use is deeply insulting to our intelligence. The difference is that you totally and utterly refuse to accept this and use a condescending and arrogant tone to deliver your message, whereas we are usually pretty upfront and direct about it. I would ask you - which is the more honest approach?

  25. #100
    Twirling dragon Maciamo's Avatar
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    Quote Originally Posted by CC1
    I just noticed that my rep went down by 100 points though. It is a sad state of affairs when you can not post your true opinions on this site. Message here? Piss off the GOD and he will punish you...but anonymosly (strange thing to do don't you think?)
    I will give you neg. rep. if I feel insulted. Red dot or not, it doesn't matter as you cannot see who give you the rep points anyway. That way I am sure you know it's me. My reputation power is by far the highest on this forum, with over 6000 posts, member almost since the very beginning, and with currently the highest reputation. All these contribute in the number of points I can give or take. Basically, when I give rep. to a new member, his/her green dots can pass from 1 to 3 in just 1 or 2 votes. For some reasons, even admins cannot change any member's rep. power, as it is constantly re-calaculated based on the current number of posts, rep. level and number of days since the joined date.

    Ya' know...this isn't the first time something rather sneaky happened here on JREF...I remember being banned by one user with Admin rights just because he got his feelings hurt before! The same people who ***** and moan about corrupt officials in Japan, abusing the system here, but not having the heart to stand up for his actions!
    As far as I know, you have never been banned, you or Silverpoint, and are still on the forum. If I had wanted you out, you wouldn't be posting now.

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